Will the average player continue to play a game where they can't complete new content or have access to top end gear?

 

Don't mean this as a swipe at the OP, but my experience from pugging flashpoints is that a large fraction of casual players exploit/skip/bug-out as many non-trivial bosses as possible, and thereby deny themselves of the ability to learn to deal with fight mechanics and play their classes better. When they later encounter mechanics-intensive fights in raids (which were fairly scarce in EV/KP), they have problems.

 

For me, 1.2 (Lost Island and EC) is a MAJOR improvement in the quality of the content.

the problem is going to be seen more in the next content patch, the gear progression is just like it was in TBC WoW, and we all remeber the Sunwell dont we?

when top end guilds start to lose people and need to find replacements they are going to have to run older content to gear up their newer members to replace old ones gone, this is the problem WoW had and why they changed the gear progression in Wrath.

 

i was afraid they was going to use the same system and it seems i was right, but it will be much worse in the next content patch.

Gear Progression with Wrath rendered everything but the newest raiding tier moot.

 

As far as I know this is neither wanted by the raiding playerbase or the development team.

 

You can skip T1.1 already if you feel like it btw. Skipping Columi not so much, unless you're an alt that can get dragged along, and I think that's a good thing.

The biggest impediment to raiding is not gear : it''s voice communication.

As to Explosive Conflict, the story mode is what you move onto after finishing EV/KP on HM. So it's

EV/KP normal -> EV/KP Hardmode -> EC Normal -> EV/KP Nightmare -> EC Hardmode

 

No, the progression is:

EV/KP normal -> EC Normal -> EC Hardmode

 

Why you may ask?

EC SM is designed for a full columi group, which dropps in SM EV/KP, because it rewards rakata (the next higher itemset).

And no, I dont say you clear it in the first night if you go there with full columi, but its doable!

 

As for now, my opinion is as follows:

SM difficulty is fine, HM difficulty is fine.

And believe me, when they release nightmare mode of EC they will nerf SM and HM.

I feel it in my guts.

I have to ask this.

If the carrot isn't juicy enough, why should the horse pull the cart?

 

I'll be blunt, I havent seen KP norm cleared, i have only cleared EV twice and done 4/5 EV HM once. At no point do I feel the need to be dripping in rakata (i do have a few pieces god bless dailys)or even the need to be in EC.

 

There is nothing wrong with bioware keeping all content relevant for the masses as they release new things.

More things to do= more time online,

more people online=larger community

larger community=more things to do

 

I've read alot of people appluading Blizzards "brilliant" involve everyone raid model. Everyone is happy to thorw out "well they've got 10 million subs so they must be right" card. Yet everyone forgets where that massive subscription jump happened.Remember when it happened? during the burning crusade ie when blizzard was using the raid model that bioware is using now.

 

I hope Bioware sticks with their current raid model, that doesn't undervalue peoples efforts as horribly as blizzard did, It drove me from the game after 5 years, it destroyed atleast 5 guilds i'd been part of for that time and alot of other guilds i'd had dealings with. it also emptied my friendlist while shattering my original server

 

Take the hint, If people don't have a carrot to go for they stop playing till the next "Big patch/Game"

Will the average player continue to play a game where they can't complete new content or have access to top end gear?

The average player shouldn't be able to get the top tier of gear period the end there has to be some effort and time put into getting the gear or its not special if everyone can get it

 

 

The current state of the game restricts the average casual player, by far the majority, from having access to end game content and gear.

So all 10 million people in wow have Full Heroic T13 and T2 cataclysmic gladiator gear... OK

 

Hard mode, has to be casual friendly. Why? I'll tell you why, because people will not play a game where they are excluded and in a game like this, gear is everything. The same goes for rated warzones. If you restrict average players from the best gear. They wil not praticipate for very long. Who would?

Have you ever competed at anything in your life? Life isn't fair the way you get better is you put in the time to get better you put in the "blood sweat and tears" without that were does the sense of accomplishment comes from?

 

 

 

IMO, BW has gone the wrong direction with this update. I think it will effect the overall player base and we will see a huge dip in subscribers. BW should have made nightmare modes harder and the new hard mode operation accessible.

The content in this game is already easily accessible I know of people who this is there first MMO and they are in full rakata working on Hard EC right now. If you are having a problem with the game currently play better. Do some research go look at forums watch some videos. Even though there isnt much helpful posts on these forums its mostly entitled people asking to be given things. Which is a major problem itself do you think people are going to want to play a game were all the community does is whine about how the game is perpetually broken when it is not.

 

Why couldn't you run the nightmare modes with hard mode gear, wouldn't it be more challenging that way? It is the challenge that you say you want right?

Thats called progression everyone who has rakata had to have some earlier tier of gear unless somehow people are reaching 50 and BOOM rakata set in the mail. And guess what T1 still wasn't hard even then it was more do we get no bugs this attempt if so boss is dead.

 

Facts are that if the average person can't get access to top tier gear. They will not play this game.

Umm like I said previouly WoWs 10 million subs say otherwise.

 

WoW is a good example to look to. The vast majority of people play PVE in WoW and the raid content isn't too hard, the average person can and does complete their raid content. The same isn't true in SWTOR even before 1.2. The only people in my old guild of 200+ who stuck around are 3-4 of the good raiders and 2 guys who play warzones.

The raid content isnt too hard hmm ok, if its not hard than why are there only a hanful of the same guilds in the top world ranks if it wasn't hard shoudln't be a crap shoot any average Joe should be able to compete for world firsts than right? WRONG the top players are the top because they put time and work into being the best. Did you ever put in attempts like Yogg 0 light or Firefighter when it was progression or Light of Dawn on the 0% buff im going to say no or else you would know that there is hard content in WoW it eventually gets nerfed progressively so more and more people can get it but its still not accessible to everyone and it shouldn't be.

 

People get this sense of entitlement that since they pay $15 a month that they should be able to do what ever they want in the game well im sorry MMOs arent that way.

 

/rant

Edited April 24, 2012 by Kurwa

the problem is going to be seen more in the next content patch, the gear progression is just like it was in TBC WoW, and we all remeber the Sunwell dont we?

when top end guilds start to lose people and need to find replacements they are going to have to run older content to gear up their newer members to replace old ones gone, this is the problem WoW had and why they changed the gear progression in Wrath.

 

i was afraid they was going to use the same system and it seems i was right, but it will be much worse in the next content patch.

 

Yes this will what will happend exactly because majority of the newcomers will be locked out of the new content and unable to follow progress in some normal pace with the rest of the rading guilds.

 

 

 

 

The average player shouldn't be able to get the top tier of gear period the end there has to be some effort and time put into getting the gear or its not special if everyone can get it

 

So all 10 million people in wow have Full Heroic T13 and T2 cataclysmic gladiator gear... OK

 

Umm like I said previouly WoWs 10 million subs say otherwise.

 

People get this sense of entitlement that since they pay $15 a month that they should be able to do what ever they want in the game well im sorry MMOs arent that way.

 

Majority of the players in TOR are casual players not hardcore , the total numbers of how many players finished tier 1 content and which BW provided at guild meeting summit clearly state this and this playerbase will not be happy if they cant access new content in MMO they are paying for just like hardcore players do because they also pay for the game to get new content updates so they have all right to expect to see the new content which was maded out.

 

Nobody is saying that casuals which dont work on raid progression should be rewarded with the highest tier of loot but imho they should have access to latest story mode operations because story mode operations should be tuned for casual players and pugs and not for hardcore raiders just like looking for raid mode is in WoW.

 

Hardcore raiders should get what they want in the hard mode ops and nightmare modes.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Lunablade

If people were interested in actually getting a challenge they would be doing HM and NMM when it is released, we are already doing that.

 

Anyone else who is not, is either not really bothered about it, or they are not willing to put the effort in. Being that most people on this world are lazy, it is no surprise that not many have done the raids. So why should you cater to them?

 

For those who cant be arsed to gear properly, figure out boss mechanics and work as a team you have storymode. Which compared to HM is 75% EASIER. Put your back into it and figure it out, you can easily clear it in under 2 hours.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Kerotan

Anyone else who is not, is either not really bothered about it, or they are not willing to put the effort in. Being that most people on this world are lazy, it is no surprise that not many have done the raids. So why should you cater to them?

 

Because they make up the majority of those paying the bills?

I'm confused how people are having trouble with story mode? I've cleared it twice with a core group of 4 and the other group being random people from general chat. Lots of the boss mechanics are ignorable to the point it's laughable in comparison to hard mode. Also at least 1 of the random people in each of the raid groups were pretty much fresh 50s or alts as far as I could tell, still no real trouble, just takes a couple attempts for new people to learn the fights, nothing more.

I also disagree that 50% of the player base is currently complete hard mode operations, that's far from the truth. Of course that part is purely speculation on both of us, although if you look around at most 50's standing around on the fleet, they are not wearing mostly rakatta and campaign gear, so it's pretty safe to say that your argument isn't valid.

 

Since by BW's own numbers only 38% of level 50 has stepped foot into a raid it's impossible to have 50% clearing hardmode. 62% of 50's never set foot in a raid let alone complete one.

I think the thing we need to do here is strip the argument to its core issue.

 

-Why am I playing this game?

 

We look at raids. Some complain too hard, some say too easy. Now were at a point where the content is tuned in SM pretty tight for the appropriate gear. Making it maybe too harsh of a jump from HM EV/KP?

 

I went back to WOW the week before 1.2 because of friends telling me how great LFR was. "You can just log in, que, and in an hour be done with the raid". At first this sounded amazing, but after doing the content on LFR mode I seen the true problem.

 

While fast, convenient, and immediately rewarding. After a day or two I felt cheated. Knowing i just stood and the back and hit a heal over and over without thinking and most of the time all 25 people completely ignoring mechanics. I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment. Not to mention now the playerbase expects you to throw gear at them with no effort at all. Que, go through motions, loot.

 

Ah back to why we play the game. I love the feeling of a boss under 10% on the first kill. I love JUST making through an encounter. Watching people slowly succumb to a enrage just to have the last person get the last hit in before he dies. The nerd yell in vent. Bioware gave us this in SM EC and i look forward to it again in HM EC.

 

In conclusion to me having content too easy is worse than not being able to do it at all. No thanks!

It doesn't matter if the top 10% of players who run orginized raids find the game easy.

 

Where do you get these statistics?..

 

I don't care if a new 50 can go and faceroll EC, But I do care if he can do that and get teh same rewards as people that spend hours and hours just to clear one boss on Nightmare. If you want top tier end game gear, then you are expected to spend the amount of time it takes to clear the bosses for the gear.

1.2 has been out for a week and a half and people are already giving up on Explosive Conflict and Lost Island? Come on guys, it's not that hard it just takes practice and you should give it more than a week before complaining about it being too hard.

 

My guild is a casual guild - we've beaten HM Lost Island and we're working on the second boss of Denova and tbh it's a ton of fun learning the fights and making progress without clearing the whole thing on the first night.

1.2 has been out for a week and a half and people are already giving up on Explosive Conflict and Lost Island? Come on guys, it's not that hard it just takes practice and you should give it more than a week before complaining about it being too hard.

 

My guild is a casual guild - we've beaten HM Lost Island and we're working on the second boss of Denova and tbh it's a ton of fun learning the fights and making progress without clearing the whole thing on the first night.

 

No one is giving up, just a handful of twits who think there guild can't do it after 1 day of attempts.

 

Hell, my guild is casual and we cleared normal in 2-days along with Z&T HM after a full day of wipes

Lol this thread is so full of fail.

 

It's so obvious the majority of these players all came from WoW. I'm all for people seeing the content but if you want the toys the big boys are playing with you need to put the work in. People seem to forget that EC is t2 content and just because it has a story mode difficulty doesn't erase that fact.

 

All these people need to figure out what they actually want. Do you want the gear the big kids are playing with or do you wanna see the content because let's face it these casuals flip flop more than any politician.

 

Here's a quick fix for all the casuals:

 

Nerf EC story (and all upcoming story modes) into the ground but make it only drop Columi instead of Rakata/etcetc. That way the people get to see they story/content.

 

Here's a quick fix for those wanting the gear:

 

GRIND YOUR FACE INTO THE BOSS AND EARN IT! Man do I miss the days of attunement and even as far back as raiding in EQ. WoW did nothing but breed a bunch of lazy whiners and it's sad to see people not wanting to put work in to accomplish something.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Dacadus

Will the average player continue to play a game where they can't complete new content or have access to top end gear?

 

That's the question BW should be pondering. It doesn't matter if the top 10% of players who run orginized raids find the game easy. That's what nightmare mode is for, to get extra gear as a reward for running extra hard content.

Most of the people who play this game are casual. The casual player should be able to complete operation and hard mode flashpoints with their friends. They should eventually be able to complete hard mode operations to get top rated gear after a month or two of gear progression.

 

The current state of the game restricts the average casual player, by far the majority, from having access to end game content and gear.

 

The best players and best raiders should have a challenge. For them we have nightmare mode and yes, I agree, it should be really hard. Much harder then it is now. The problem is hard mode ops. The top players want it to be elite player exclusive transistion grounds and the casual player wants access to the best gear.

 

Hard mode, has to be casual friendly. Why? I'll tell you why, because people will not play a game where they are excluded and in a game like this, gear is everything. The same goes for rated warzones. If you restrict average players from the best gear. They wil not praticipate for very long. Who would?

 

Many casual people hung on just long enough to see some of the changes made in 1.2. What did they see? They saw that they will not be doing the new operation. They see that very soon they will be given a warzone rating and will be told they can't have PvP gear if they don't add up to the pro player.

 

IMO, BW has gone the wrong direction with this update. I think it will effect the overall player base and we will see a huge dip in subscribers. BW should have made nightmare modes harder and the new hard mode operation accessible.

 

Everything I have said is anecdotal, am I right? What are your opinions on the new content and will people stay to play it? I don't think they will.

 

BW has already stated that Story Mode is for casuals, Hard Mode/Nightmare mode for raiding guilds. I don't see the issue. Casuals do not need the same gear because they are not operating at the same difficulty level. The self-entitlement of the casual gamer is what has killed so many MMOs before this one.

BW has already stated that Story Mode is for casuals, Hard Mode/Nightmare mode for raiding guilds. I don't see the issue. Casuals do not need the same gear because they are not operating at the same difficulty level. The self-entitlement of the casual gamer is what has killed so many MMOs before this one.

 

I'm still trying to figure out when the term casual raiders = easy mode? That's not casual raiding, that's not even raiding....

 

Hardcore has always been defined as guilds the strive for server/world firsts and often take time out of there lives to achieve this. They will often clear all content within days to weeks of it's release and then casually farm until the next update.

 

If your guild is anything but this, then you are casual raiding guild. They spread across all levels of raiding from story to HM and even clearing NiM after a long enough time. The only thing separating these guilds is the players.

 

Now, to say story mode is for the casual raiders and needs to be nerf is an insult to any guild that has and is currently working to clear it. To think that a casual guild doesn't have the skills to approach a challenge is disgusting. This is why so many will turn to that statement and simply say "Get better". Because that's all it takes.

 

P.S. can someone fill me in on what happened to WoW after BC? Everyone keeps pointing to that as the leading cause of this plague of "easy".

We just finished clearing SM Denova last night. It was ridiculously easy after we figured out the mechanics. I am almost positive that once the strategies for Denova become well-known, pugs and extreme casual players will have no problem clearing it if they've already did EV/KP.

 

It's been less that two weeks since the content has been released. Not all the strategies for it are even known, and we've encountered quite a few guides with incorrect information or bad strategies.

 

The problem is that people seem to have a sense of entitlement and self-worth, that if they can't do it in the first couple tries then it's too difficult. I feel the OP is in this same camp, as he seems obsessed with Denova's difficulty.

I'm still trying to figure out when the term casual raiders = easy mode? That's not casual raiding, that's not even raiding....

 

Hardcore has always been defined as guilds the strive for server/world firsts and often take time out of there lives to achieve this. They will often clear all content within days to weeks of it's release and then casually farm until the next update.

 

If your guild is anything but this, then you are casual raiding guild. They spread across all levels of raiding from story to HM and even clearing NiM after a long enough time. The only thing separating these guilds is the players.

 

Now, to say story mode is for the casual raiders and needs to be nerf is an insult to any guild that has and is currently working to clear it. To think that a casual guild doesn't have the skills to approach a challenge is disgusting. This is why so many will turn to that statement and simply say "Get better". Because that's all it takes.

 

P.S. can someone fill me in on what happened to WoW after BC? Everyone keeps pointing to that as the leading cause of this plague of "easy".

 

I consider my guild a casual raiding guild (10/10 Nightmare) and we cleared story mode EC before the first lockout after 1.2. We don't have a set progression group and let everyone raid. HM in EC is a nice challenge for us - hence my original statement stands: Hard Mode/Nightmare is for raiding guilds.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Typeslice

I'm still trying to figure out when the term casual raiders = easy mode? That's not casual raiding, that's not even raiding....

 

Hardcore has always been defined as guilds the strive for server/world firsts and often take time out of there lives to achieve this. They will often clear all content within days to weeks of it's release and then casually farm until the next update.

 

If your guild is anything but this, then you are casual raiding guild. They spread across all levels of raiding from story to HM and even clearing NiM after a long enough time. The only thing separating these guilds is the players.

 

Now, to say story mode is for the casual raiders and needs to be nerf is an insult to any guild that has and is currently working to clear it. To think that a casual guild doesn't have the skills to approach a challenge is disgusting. This is why so many will turn to that statement and simply say "Get better". Because that's all it takes.

 

P.S. can someone fill me in on what happened to WoW after BC? Everyone keeps pointing to that as the leading cause of this plague of "easy".

 

The confusion may lie in the fact that I see casuals and casual raiders as 2 different groups.

 

P.S. can someone fill me in on what happened to WoW after BC? Everyone keeps pointing to that as the leading cause of this plague of "easy".

 

 

AoE fest dungeons that took 15 minutes to clear in Blues. Boss Mechanics went from 3-5 per boss down to 1-2 per boss. LFG Tool, which I actually enjoyed but only made the game easier and allowed people that were "less dedicated". The heavy reward system from that LFG tool just for running a daily dungeon which I honestly believe they need to implement here for Casuals.

 

With an LFG reward system in place those casuals can grind out story mode raid gear without stepping into the raids. Then try there hand at HM when they have enough and be rejected, cry for nerfs and wait til the next raid is released to get that nerf so they can upgrade to the next tier of gear.

 

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AT THE END OF BC.

PVP: You can get battlemaster gear with the only restriction being lvl 50, the upgrade from battlemaster to warhero isn't overly big.

 

PVE: What most pve'rs might forget is that for a measly 20k per equipment piece you can get a rating 126 (i believe its slightly higher in rating then centurion/tionese) lvl 50 blue set of gear that offers you enough bonuses to do pre 1.2 normal mode operations without difficulty and possibly even do hardmodes that aren't soa.

 

Explosive conflict: yes its a big step up from the other raids, however the rewards are the hardmode rewards from the older raids + commendations that you can exchange for gear that has higher level mods then rakatta. So if you have a tionese armor you could theoretically upgrade it to better stats then ye olde columi/rakatta with set bonuses by just doing the normal mode and the black hole dailies.

 

Tip1: Before complaining, read up on all the guides posted by guilds that completed the hardmodes and do the normal modes using hard mode tactics as usually that can help. Research a flashpoint/operation by going to youtube to see how others do it and try to plan accordingly.

 

Tip2: Mentioned before but check to see if the entry level 20k per piece pvp gear isn't better then what you currently have.

 

Tip3: If you saved up warzone commendations while you levelled or do atleast some pvp you can get a tier 3 weapon for 1550 warzone commendations -> Battlemaster Weapon.

 

Tip4: Something that i have noticed helps sometimes, switch arround the healers/tanks or dps their main targets, sometimes for some silly reason a healer1 does better at healing spot2 and vice versa. Same with tanks, if tank1 and 2 are heaving weird problems see if switching their spots doesn't improve your chances. Dps wise its sometimes better to actually sometimes have them hold back their dps a bit before going all out so that the initial % triggers of bossSkillX and bossSkillY are a bit delayed.

 

Tip5: Keep a cool head, have fun, if you take it all too seriously you'll get bored soon enough.

 

Yes the new content is challenging even on story mode, but do you really want to clear everything on the first day and then get bored, instead of slowly but surely progressing towards completion and being more satisfied with yourself because you managed to finally defeat that one boss you got stuck on?