ZahirS, if you will recall correctly from the movies (at least), there are several instances where we can see droids preforming tasks. They are, essentially, slave labor in that context.

 

Any instances of mass slavery (or the attempt thereof, like with the Wookies) is nothing more than an attempt at exerting dominance over them. In those cases, cost is not a factor.

This exactly, thanks fury that was what I was trying to say.

Ok I know that kind of slavery, but this is not what we are talking about here.

 

We are talking about open slavery of both males and females and kids to do choirs, servitude just like in Roman times.

there were laws to abolish slavery in our real world, sure it exists as underworld market but it can be dismatled.

 

In Roman times is was looked good to have many slaves, you see what I mean. that changed overtime.

 

So in Star Wars having slaves is too primitive to be in star wars, because of existance of droids, etc.

I disagree, I think human slaves (humanoid) will always be cheaper. Humans cost nothing to manufacture, costs little to no training or instruction, requires no maintenance (if sick throw away). It will always be preferred on distance planets where they do not see a lot of droids or need people capable of fixing droids. Which if you watch the movie Star Wars is a feature presented in the very first Star Wars movie with Luke in it. They had no droid manufacturing and they only had salvage droids, which they had to repair and even then some of the droids were not worth having after they were fixed. As Lukes uncle said "your not trying to pull a fast one on us". There is even further demonstration of this lack of available fixers in the movie with the child Anakin.

The droid army is put into service by the Galaxies largest Merchant Conglomerate, you can't assume that this is how it is through the whole Galaxy. Apparently even in KOTOR there is not a vast robotic army or servant force. They are there without a doubt but not in the capacity to replace cheap labor.

If your living in a swamp, your not going to have a computer tech guy right around the block. You have to think of the Galaxy as a similar place like the world there are some places so remote and so backward, that slavery is going to be the default.

To realize how cheap a human life is, they kill infants daily in some countries by drugging them up with narcotics and hand them to an older child to use as a PROP, in order to beg for money. Drugging them prevents them from crying for food, pain, ect,. Then business people say ahhh two children that are starving. When they over dose they replace them.

Male slavery like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16836065 ??

There is still full on slavery, there are just different forms to which we pretend are not slavery. Which include forced military service, indentured servants (where you have to pay back a debt that keeps growing as they include your board, food, ect,.), contract slavery, forced labor because of economic structure (most common in China) meaning they are given one room, food and everything else by the company while not making enough to live or move away and escape with no alternative jobs. This last one is sometimes used in America against illegal immigrants.

Slaves are not easy to acquire if you actually read history a war is one of the most expensives things to do, that why there are slavers which essentially capture people and sell them as slaves.

 

While Droids are nuts a bolts, and can be repaired with minimal effort and are 100% loyal if programmed right, slaves on the other hand need implants to prevent them of leaving.

 

Better not always mean more expensive

As I have already explained, droids are expensive to maintain, they need parts. Whereas humans don't need repair, if they 'break' the can be replaced cheaply. Humans can be made fairly loyal through subordination and shock collars (droids are also not 100% loyal given the existence of restraining bolts.) However the strengths grossly outweigh the weaknesses.

Droids also have to be constructed, which requires intelligent beings and construction factories.

I also feel you have taken into account the points made initially in response.

Any instances of mass slavery (or the attempt thereof, like with the Wookies) is nothing more than an attempt at exerting dominance over them. In those cases, cost is not a factor.

I mean do you really think the Empire repressed the Wookiees for the sake of repression? The Empire has no need to engage in such petty displays of power, they have these for that.

Also I want to point out that there are many situations and labors that only a human can perform. There might be heat restrictions on a droid to prevent CPU overheating a person after expiring from heat exhaustion can be replaced immediately (as a bonus you have less mouths to feed), excessive sand eventually erodes motor function, places or planets that might irradiate a droid preventing it from function (also kills people), it's easier to replace people than droids.

Basically, life is cheaper, especially a Galaxy of life.

Your missing the point. Wars are not fought with the intention of acquiring slaves, wars are fought with the intention of acquiring territory, resources etc. It saddles you with populations, the most cost effective way to deal with this population influx is to enslave them. This disadvantage them becomes an added bonus rather a impairment. Not enslaving them is more expensive, so naturally a war mongering nation such as the Galactic Empire is going to have slaves purely for the sake of efficiency.

 

As I have already explained, droids are expensive to maintain, they need parts. Whereas humans don't need repair, if they 'break' the can be replaced cheaply. Humans can be made fairly loyal through subordination and shock collars (droids are also not 100% loyal given the existence of restraining bolts.) However the strengths grossly outweigh the weaknesses.

 

Droids also have to be constructed, which requires intelligent beings and construction factories.

 

I also feel you have taken into account the points made initially in response.

You still don't understand beni, when you fight a war for resources you don't enslave a population which is harder to do than you think, even Romans knew this to maintain control of a territory and its valuable resources you need to make the population part of your Empire, same laws, same culture if possible.

In jabaa palace we see the cheif of droid servants, which is a droid who replaces droids or repairs existing ones.

Enslaving is not efficient is fact the opposite there are alot of different classes of slaves, what task and what slave is fit for it, it costs more than its worth it considering you have a high demand of droids and their parts you can simply acquire several and program them for multi-purpose depending on the task, thats efficiency.

If those said Wookiees were not enslaved, they would prove problematic for the Empire in the form of muscled and skilled resistance (likely giving the Rebels additional manpower), which would cost billions of credits to repress. Also, the Empire would have to replace millions of Wookiees with heavy duty labor droids. This would cost billions more credits just to produce. While the Wookiees were essentially free.

 

I mean do you really think the Empire repressed the Wookiees for the sake of repression? The Empire has no need to engage in such petty displays of power, they have these for that.

A show of strength means nothing. The exertion of strength (on proud people) merely enrages them. Enslaving them was a method of breaking their spirit.

But, I also agree with both of these posts from the previous page:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6244794&postcount=77

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6244867&postcount=78

You still don't understand beni, when you fight a war for resources you don't enslave a population which is harder to do than you think, even Romans knew this to maintain control of a territory and its valuable resources you need to make the population part of your Empire, same laws, same culture if possible.

That's totally incorrect, the Romans relied on their slave population. Your mixing, the idea of Foreign Corp aka Auxiliary forces, which eventually became Romes Legions in with slaves along with incorporated territory, which were never enslaved nor allowed to be involved with Rome. Rome began to rely more and more on foreign legions toward the latter part of their existence. To the point that Legions no longer consisted of mostly Romans, instead Germans and other "barbarians". One of the latter "legions" or tribes eventually sacked Rome because of the lack of respect given to them by Rome, they were called the Vandals, which is where we get the term Vandalism. Though they didn't take anything from Rome they just wrecked it. Burning Rome to the ground was the equivalent to burning down Las Vegas, why burn down the place where you go to have fun?

Slavery was such a required part of their culture that their society actually began to crumble around them as they lacked the labor required to do a lot of work. Which decreased in population as people "freed" them and killed them after the Servitile Wars, which expanded their slave force. It became so disastrous to the Romans that they began implementing new laws to prevent freeing slaves and offering rewards from the government for returned slaves.

That's totally incorrect, the Romans relied on their slave population. Your mixing, the idea of Foreign Corp aka Auxiliary forces, which eventually became Romes Legions in with slaves along with incorporated territory, which were never enslaved nor allowed to be involved with Rome. Rome began to rely more and more on foreign legions toward the latter part of their existence. To the point that Legions no longer consisted of mostly Romans, instead Germans and other "barbarians". One of the latter "legions" or tribes eventually sacked Rome because of the lack of respect given to them by Rome, they were called the Vandals, which is where we get the term Vandalism. Though they didn't take anything from Rome they just wrecked it. Burning Rome to the ground was the equivalent to burning down Las Vegas, why burn down the place where you go to have fun?

 

Slavery was such a required part of their culture that their society actually began to crumble around them as they lacked the labor required to do a lot of work. Which decreased in population as people "freed" them and killed them after the Servitile Wars, which expanded their slave force. It became so disastrous to the Romans that they began implementing new laws to prevent freeing slaves and offering rewards from the government for returned slaves.

Im tired you of and lack of logic,

First off Romans had slaves that was part of their law, if you were a citizen you had plenty of slaves.

Second, once Romans conquered they rarely enslaved entire populations it wasn't efficient back then, they rather convert them via PAX ROMANA or war then they took their culture there, built cities the roman way, had thatres just like rome and essentially the territory was an extension of rome.

Rome to las Vegas? are you frigging serious?

Rome was the center of administration of the whole roman empire, the richest roman citizens (the ones that had more slaves) lived there. It had the colosseum and the great wheel but it wasn't city just for fun.

there was a saying: "All roads lead to rome"

Because all roads were made by romans and all cities looked similar to rome, but rome was the center of their empire.

You still don't understand beni, when you fight a war for resources you don't enslave a population which is harder to do than you think, even Romans knew this to maintain control of a territory and its valuable resources you need to make the population part of your Empire, same laws, same culture if possible.

 

In jabaa palace we see the cheif of droid servants, which is a droid who replaces droids or repairs existing ones.

 

Enslaving is not efficient is fact the opposite there are alot of different classes of slaves, what task and what slave is fit for it, it costs more than its worth it considering you have a high demand of droids and their parts you can simply acquire several and program them for multi-purpose depending on the task, thats efficiency.

However in Star Wars is has been done and is easy to perfom. Take Kiros - an entire Togruta population of 50,000 colonists was effectively abducted and enslaved in the space of a few days. The cost? A couple of B1 battle droid squadrons and some transport vessels. Alternatively they could have conquered the planet and been forced to defend it from the Republic. The people may very well have grown discontent with the regime and attempt to overthrow it. Manpower on the streets would be increased and infrastructure would have to be repaired, all the while they'd be wasting vast resources on defending a planet that is of no economic advantage to them. Effectively credits down the drain.

The same would apply with a planet such as Kashyyyk or Rydonia, these planets are highly volatile and cannot be assimilated. Slavery is the most cost effective option. Hence why slaves flood the labor market and why slaves are consequently cheap.

Slaves are also what Empires are built upon. Take the Galactic Empire, Darth Sidious orchestrated the return of the Zygerrian Empire because, and I quote: "Long have Sith Empire's been built on the backs of slaves, to carry on this tradition we will require millions." Sidious required the man power of organic slaves to build his Empire, and in particular fuel massive projects such as the construction of the Death Star.

If droids really were a cheaper alternative, don't you think the Empire would have opted for it? Rather than waste billions of credits on supposedly ineffective organics?

In response to your other points, you cannot simply 'acquire' droids. You are making it sound easy and simple while ignoring all arguments that suggest it is not. I suggest you look into the cost of droid factories, and the resources it takes to build a droid. Nor are droids are versatile as you think. A simple labor droid can perform a single task, lift relatively heavy objects. An organic slave can do this as well as act as a servant and offer entertainment value. Not a range of skills no, but more than a labor droid.

If droids really were a cheaper alternative, don't you think the Empire would have opted for it? Rather than waste billions of credits on supposedly ineffective organics?

Obviously taking slaves was the empire way of saying "If you are not with me you are against me", it was more power control than efficient, don't tell me death star was efficient design/built

Also like you said a Labor droid can carry heavy stuff, many times more than a human

Im tired you of and lack of logic,

 

First off Romans had slaves that was part of their law, if you were a citizen you had plenty of slaves.

 

Second, once Romans conquered they rarely enslaved entire populations it wasn't efficient back then, they rather convert them via PAX ROMANA or war then they took their culture there, built cities the roman way, had thatres just like rome and essentially the territory was an extension of rome.

 

Rome to las Vegas? are you frigging serious?

 

Rome was the center of administration of the whole roman empire, the richest roman citizens (the ones that had more slaves) lived there. It had the colosseum and the great wheel but it wasn't city just for fun.

 

there was a saying: "All roads lead to rome"

 

Because all roads were made by romans and all cities looked similar to rome, but rome was the center of their empire.

I don't think you read what I wrote or maybe not comprehend. They definitely did not spread cities around, because cities is civs, and civilization means a place with a city, citizens means people of that city. I also am not saying no roman structures ever existed in foreign lands but these were made for the Romans who ruled the area not the people who indigineously lived there, if they used it that was by product, not the purpose. If this was the case then the word Barbarians wouldn't exist, which is a term coined for foreign people bar-bar-barbling or baby talking. In other words uncivilized (lacking a city). I'm also unaware of any Roman structures other than forts or cities that expanded from forts and grew into a town but not a huge city such as Rome that reached into Gaul (Spain) or Germania (Germany). I mean there could have been, but if their were any worth mentioning you would be able to recall one off the top of your head. I definitely do not recall any major structures in the lower half of Britain either or for that matter Egypt. That's not to say there are none or were none. There is only one city I can think of in the latter half of the Roman Empire that can truly be called a major city Constantinople of the Holy Roman Empire and the last Roman Emperor.

When a place is "conquered" a flag does not magically appear on a map. Instead a force of the population is defeated which did not like Roman rule, frequently they would have uprisings. A Roman was put in place to be in charge. Yes these territories were incorporated (annexed) which is what I said and you did not understand. However as these people were allowed citizenship those positions were taken by the people who lived there. Here though you miss out the fact that the Republic becomes an Imperialist society run by Praetors and Consular. Aka the famous Julius Caesar moment. Also Pax (<- where the word pacts is by the way) Romana means roman peace, it's not some form of conversion.

Which the foreigners didn't even receive citizenship though until 100 years later after their "annexing", so your just brushing aside almost a 100 years of deep rooted hatred and war like they were some how easily converted.

As for Rome being the center of the Empire this is true at the beginning, however toward the end of Rome. People like Culigula were in charge, in which he impregnated his own sister, molested children, killed random people, proceeded to cut open his own sister to release the child of Micheal (yes from the Bible) into the world. You really think he was running the Empire? No, no, at this stage Rome had just become so old that it was left to rot. Everything was run by merchants and other people. Rome no longer actually functioned. As even Culigula was murdered by his Praetorian Guard.

Also Rome is like Las Vegas have you never heard of the Coliseum, the many plays, the extravagant orgies known as Saturnalia, the Vomitus Rooms, the sex trade??

Also the term all roads lead to Rome is because they were built to supply troops and wagons (supplies) to the front lines of where they conquer. I would consider that after Romes collapse all Road did not lead to Constantinople.

Also the part where you say if you were a citizen, you had slaves, is illogical. Though slaves were cheap for some a potentially freed slave owning another slave is illogical. Also in an autocratic society (after the Republic ceased to be a Republic) it also does not figure into comprehension as some are richer than others the idea that everyone had a slave because of some law does not make any sense, especially in the latter half of the Roman Empire as it fell apart. On top of that though, once you make everyone a citizen where do the slaves come from? That was my point once annxed (100 years later) you could not get any more massive hordes of slaves. Once Rome could no longer conquer other peoples they could no longer get more slaves which I think began to happen in 147AD circa and became a major problem in 271AD circa. Additionally I just want to point out that I doubt every person in the land even knew they were Roman citizens or even cared. They only cared about the goods manufactured in Rome, the cloth, the rich colors of tapestry, the food, the exotic wines, the women, the pottery, not to mention the rare spices (which if you know your history on the spice wars you already know this). They kept peace for those, not for citizenship.

Roman society developed over 1000 years, you're trying to turn it into some bite size understandable chunk that consists of its 100AD-200AD existence. In other words the most common period on which television and the history channel covers.

Tell me when your handing out my Masters in History and I'll be by to pick it up.

A show of strength means nothing. The exertion of strength (on proud people) merely enrages them. Enslaving them was a method of breaking their spirit.

 

But, I also agree with both of these posts from the previous page:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6244794&postcount=77

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6244867&postcount=78

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

"Only though the projection of power do we bring order. The inefficiencies of nonstandard practices, of trade barriers, of restrictions due to cultures and provincial interest... all will be swept away. There will be order through power."

"I maintain that the effectiveness of the Star Destroyer stems from not only its massive firepower, but from its size. When citizens look at a Star Destroyer and then compare it to the craft which might be mustered to attack it, they have a tendency to dismiss such a notion as suicidal rather than approach the problem tactically."

The Tarkin Doctrine revolved around these ideas.

Whether it works or not is a different story, however I would be intimidated by the military power of the Galactic Empire. And the Empire, whom had had 20 years to experiment, clearly believed it worked. Even Rahm Kota, a Jedi Master, was intimidated: "It's a fool's errand, boy. The Empire's army is infinite. You'll eventually be killed…or worse. And nothing will have changed." If a Jedi can be dissuaded by the Empire's might, a few rowdy Twi'leks can.

Nonetheless I would agree that in the case of the most aggresive and most proud of people i.e. Wookiees slavery is the most effective way to break them. However I expect the main reason was man power, given the fact that Wookiees were not the only organics enslaved but Yuzzem and Talz for strength. Mon Calamari and Given for their ship-building skills. Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians for their mining skills. Gamorreans, Lugubraas and Gungans for military operations and Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Slavery for the Empire was effectively a way of forcing those with skills they needed into subservience without having to worry about paying for them or providing basic services. Such advantages would not exist in terms of droids which are only slightly cheaper than employing organics, and grossly more expensive that simply enslaving them. I mean do you even know of a droid designed to clone? Or build ships?

Also note that planets such as Kasyyykk and Alzoc III (Talz homeworld) were of little tatical or economic significance to the Empire. Alzoc III in particular was conquered for the sole purpose of enslaving the primitive population. Clearly if they thought droids would be more effective they would have simply built some droid factories, but they didn't. This would heavily imply slave labor was more cost effective, even when conquering the planet to that end, even more cost effective when the planet is strategically or resourcefully advantageous.

Slavery was also a method of removing potential dissidents. The Galactic Empire in particular enslaved non-humans and critics of the Empire to this end.

Obviously taking slaves was the empire way of saying "If you are not with me you are against me", it was more power control than efficient, don't tell me death star was efficient design/built

 

Also like you said a Labor droid can carry heavy stuff, many times more than a human

Encouraging loyalty amongst citizens could be achieved in many other ways - e.g. military power, propaganda, executions - and was far from the sole reason for organic slavery. That would be a gross waste of resources. And how exactly is enslaving an entire race i.e. Talz going to encourage other Talz to submit to the Empire? It cannot because they are all enslaved. Nor will it have much impact on the remaining population as human populations would regard Talz and Wookiees as beasts who deserve to be enslaved, and the xenophobic natuee of the Empire would lead them to regard aliens in similar fashion. Simply put they will not feel intimidated because they would not believe the intimidation was directed at them. Given that this is the case, we cannot assume that the Empire enslaved entire races for nothing.

Secondly, the Death Star's designs have no bearing whatsoever on the debate, it was a design flaw, not a construction flaw. Employing droids instead of organics would not have solved the problem. Also note that organic slaves would not have been involved in assembling the station (given that it exists in the vacuum of space) but merely in extracting and transporting the necessary resources. So if we hold your argument to be truth, the droids are actually to blame...

And finally, fortunately the xenophobic Empire actually opts for non-human slaves. Such as Wookiees, Talz and Yuzzem, organics that are incredibly strong. Labor droids also are incapable of providing entertainment value, fighting, providing protection, building ships, mining and cloning. An organic slave can cover all these bases, just got choose to the right planet.

I'm sorry Zahirs, I've read just about eery post you made in the argument that droids are cheaper than humanoid slave labor and I start running present day numbers in my head and I just don't see it. So to help explain the numbers that I'm seeing I'm going to use a car versus a human in day to day cost.

To get a human slave it will cost one of two things, time or fuel. What I mean buy that is either you will use present slaves to make a child that you can buy or take or you will use slavers to go and get the slave. Either which way the cost would be time and fuel. Depending on how far they have to go the fuel can be very very little or very costly. Then add in up keep of the human. you can feed humans a paste that is comprised of proteins and grains to sustain them. very low coast, maybe even cheaper than a loaf of bread. So on average if you take what a loaf of bread costs you are looking at spending roughly 10 credits a month on food. Now we take living costs.... who says they need to live in a house? take 4 walls put some hay on the ground and a bucket in the corner. total cost maybe 100 credits in building materials. Give them rags or hand me downs for clothes which would cost you nothing and a a fresh water supply, which a well can be dug with the slave you just bought. So total cost at this point is any where from 200 credits to a couple thousand depending on how much fuel was used to get said slave.

Now we look at a car. Now I know it won't be a very accurate set up, but it will get the rough Idea across. First we have to mine enough ore to even start. You will need a combination of copper, steel, and some other composite materials. as well as lubricants, hydrolic fluids, and plastics. Even on a mass production scale these alone before production would cost more in refinement than a human slave would. Now we get to manufacturing costs. which this can be lowered since we a re talking about a world where full automation is conceivable. But you would still have to pay for the energy and the over head cost of of purchasing the fully automated system. Now granted this is all going to be split up across all the droids that are manufactured and we are only talking about 1 droid. But lets say on average 1 droid cost you 3-4000 credits. So just from this point the droid has cost you more than a humanoid would cost.

Now lets look at up keep of both. A human would not require memory wipes to keep them from revolting so the cost would be 0 for a human and what every you'd have to pay a tech to do this once a month (or so). Then if you look at maintenance a droid would need fluids changed, a energy recharge station, which would cost more than food and water combined as well as the cost of a tech to perform these, even if you use a repair droid in place of a tech you'd still have the cost of purchasing yet another droid just to keep the one running.

So in short. there is no possible way that a droid would be more cost effective than a humanoid as a slave. There are just way to many costly corners you could cut with a humanoid than you can with a droid.

I would disagree. Star Destroyers and the Empire's military power in general was designed to invoke fear in the populations they sought to suppress. To quote Tarkin:

 

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

 

"Only though the projection of power do we bring order. The inefficiencies of nonstandard practices, of trade barriers, of restrictions due to cultures and provincial interest... all will be swept away. There will be order through power."

 

"I maintain that the effectiveness of the Star Destroyer stems from not only its massive firepower, but from its size. When citizens look at a Star Destroyer and then compare it to the craft which might be mustered to attack it, they have a tendency to dismiss such a notion as suicidal rather than approach the problem tactically."

 

The Tarkin Doctrine revolved around these ideas.

 

Whether it works or not is a different story, however I would be intimidated by the military power of the Galactic Empire. And the Empire, whom had had 20 years to experiment, clearly believed it worked. Even Rahm Kota, a Jedi Master, was intimidated: "It's a fool's errand, boy. The Empire's army is infinite. You'll eventually be killed…or worse. And nothing will have changed." If a Jedi can be dissuaded by the Empire's might, a few rowdy Twi'leks can.

 

Nonetheless I would agree that in the case of the most aggresive and most proud of people i.e. Wookiees slavery is the most effective way to break them. However I expect the main reason was man power, given the fact that Wookiees were not the only organics enslaved but Yuzzem and Talz for strength. Mon Calamari and Given for their ship-building skills. Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians for their mining skills. Gamorreans, Lugubraas and Gungans for military operations and Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Slavery for the Empire was effectively a way of forcing those with skills they needed into subservience without having to worry about paying for them or providing basic services. Such advantages would not exist in terms of droids which are only slightly cheaper than employing organics, and grossly more expensive that simply enslaving them. I mean do you even know of a droid designed to clone? Or build ships?

 

Also note that planets such as Kasyyykk and Alzoc III (Talz homeworld) were of little tatical or economic significance to the Empire. Alzoc III in particular was conquered for the sole purpose of enslaving the primitive population. Clearly if they thought droids would be more effective they would have simply built some droid factories, but they didn't. This would heavily imply slave labor was more cost effective, even when conquering the planet to that end, even more cost effective when the planet is strategically or resourcefully advantageous.

 

Slavery was also a method of removing potential dissidents. The Galactic Empire in particular enslaved non-humans and critics of the Empire to this end.

I understand all of this and yes, it works great on regular people.

Wookies, on the other hand, are not the type simply to bow down because a Star Destroyer is hovering over head, and it's firing upon the planet will just cause a planet wide revolt. As such, forcing them into slave labor was an attempt to break their spirits. And I'm not saying that it worked, either....

EDIT: pfft... accidentally quoted the wrong post first time through

EDIT2: Also note, the Empire cannot just leave a planet that in some way defies it. They wanted their own rulers at every world to show that they were the ones in control. Wookies would not have liked this. But they can't simply not put a ruler there because of possible revolt... if other worlds got wind of this.... See where I'm going with that? The labor to build the DS was simply an excuse in their case. In reality, it was a sign of dominance and control because if you leave even 1 spark of freedom somewhere, it will attempt to grow and spread.

EDIT3: Also want to make it clear, I'm not really trying to argue which is cheaper... droids or slaves. Personally, I believe it depends on the location in reference to manufacturing facilities, in part. I'm just saying that there are times where slave labor comes in for reasons other than cost.

Ill start with Volition argument here:

Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.

To beni, x and aurbere:

Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.

Ill start with Volition argument here:

 

Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.

Never mind I misread the above, I guess this is agreeing with my previous points.

I want to point out who won the Droid War, a massive army of "slaves" (clone army).

Nuff said really, clearly these were unbelievably cheap or how else would it go by unnoticed for so long? They must have been easier to maintain as the Clone Army utterly devastated the far more technically and mechanically enhanced opponents or so we keep getting told. If these were so cheap and so easy to make why did they lose so horribly? I mean if there so easy to maintain and replace, why did they keep losing so much? If that was the scenario the Clone Army would eventually cease to exist as they whittle away their humanoid numbers against an infinitely replaceable army. Nothing can replace human(or humanoid) ingenuity, comprehension, ability to adapt, and of course ability to survive. Strangely enough the exact same things that make them better slaves.

Even further more there is a mission in which human intelligence is added to droid to make them better...by removing their brains and placing them in machines.

Proving in this debate that a living organism is the preferred resource, not to just win wars but to do nearly everything.

I understand all of this and yes, it works great on regular people.

 

Wookies, on the other hand, are not the type simply to bow down because a Star Destroyer is hovering over head, and it's firing upon the planet will just cause a planet wide revolt. As such, forcing them into slave labor was an attempt to break their spirits. And I'm not saying that it worked, either....

 

EDIT: pfft... accidentally quoted the wrong post first time through

EDIT2: Also note, the Empire cannot just leave a planet that in some way defies it. They wanted their own rulers at every world to show that they were the ones in control. Wookies would not have liked this. But they can't simply not put a ruler there because of possible revolt... if other worlds got wind of this.... See where I'm going with that? The labor to build the DS was simply an excuse in their case. In reality, it was a sign of dominance and control because if you leave even 1 spark of freedom somewhere, it will attempt to grow and spread.

 

EDIT3: Also want to make it clear, I'm not really trying to argue which is cheaper... droids or slaves. Personally, I believe it depends on the location in reference to manufacturing facilities, in part. I'm just saying that there are times where slave labor comes in for reasons other than cost.

Good points, however I think in terms of thought processes the idea of enslaving Wookiees for slave labor came first and the rest just followed. Given the fact that the planet was already Republic-aligned anyway they had to do something with it, and that it was actually the Trandoshans who suggested that the Empire enslave the Wookiees. And those Wookiees were pretty effective slave labor. I think it was less of an excuse and more of a necessity - the Empire needed slaves, Wookiees make for good slaves.

Also remember that Sidious had every intention of enslaving races of the galaxy from the word go, and likely planned on enslaving the Wookiees long before the Empire emerged. Neither was Wookiee slavery exactly a novetly of the time, the Trandoshans were notorious for enslaving Wookiees as were Czerka. Slavers just couldn't pass up such effective slave labor, so naturally the Empire would enslave Kashyyyk, regardless of their position as a threat to Imperial stability.

After all the Empire went out of their way to enslave the Talz, a species of very similar build. Which would suggest the Empire had real need of Wookiee slaves who, might I add, didn't only work on the DS, but countless other Imperial projects, they really were the backbone of Imperial slave labor.

Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

 

Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

 

In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

 

Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.

1. We're talking about labor here, not combat effectiveness which the Clone Wars has proven organics have an inherent advantage in. Yes they can be mass produced, but that costs a lot of credits and resources regardless, something you don't seem to take into account. Furthermore, there are far more organics already in existence across the galaxy than there are droids. Organics have essentially already been mass produced.
    
    
   
2. Your ignoring the fact that in many cases, slavery is actually the cheaper alternative to managing a population. Slaves need supervision but disgruntled populations need a whole lot more, and that's on top of the costs of providing for them in the first place. You have yet to address this issue.
    
    
   
3. We have already explained at great length how droids are not more cost effective in the long run. You cannot simply ignore those arguments with arbitrary statements!
    
    
   
4. Slavery may be frowned upon by more developed nations as primitve and uncivilised but ultimately its more effective. Droids cost more money to aquire, paid labor (clue's in the name) is paid and therefore costs more money than slaves, specialized labor is freely available in the form of slaves given the fact that the Empire enslaved ship-builders, cloners, miners etc. to perform specialized jobs at no extra cost. Droids are incapable of doing many of these tasks,
    
    
   
5. The remainder of your arguments are lacking in any evidence to support them. For example, how is Palpatine using slave labor an example of ill use? Among the successes built on the backs of slaves include, two Death Stars - massive moon sized battle-stations possessing firepower unequaled in the history warfare, the Maw Installation - a top secret research center hidden within a cluster of black holes and Imperial Star Destroyers - the most powerful battleships of their time. All this was under control of a colossal Empire that had countless resources at its disposal - resources extracted by slaves. I'd call that a pretty effective use of slave labor.
   

1. We're talking about labor here, not combat effectiveness which the Clone Wars has proven organics have an inherent advantage in. Yes they can be mass produced, but that costs a lot of credits and resources regardless, something you don't seem to take into account. Furthermore, there are far more organics already in existence across the galaxy than there are droids. Organics have essentially already been mass produced.

Your ignoring the fact that in many cases, slavery is actually the cheaper alternative to managing a population. Slaves need supervision but disgruntled populations need a whole lot more, and that's on top of the costs of providing for them in the first place. You have yet to address this issue.

We have already explained at great length how droids are not more cost effective in the long run. You cannot simply ignore those arguments with arbitrary statements!

Slavery may be frowned upon by more developed nations as primitve and uncivilised but ultimately its more effective. Droids cost more money to aquire, paid labor (clue's in the name) is paid and therefore costs more money than slaves, specialized labor is freely available in the form of slaves given the fact that the Empire enslaved ship-builders, cloners, miners etc. to perform specialized jobs at no extra cost. Droids are incapable of doing many of these tasks,

The remainder of your arguments are lacking in any evidence to support them. For example, how is Palpatine using slave labor an example of ill use? Among the successes built on the backs of slaves include, two Death Stars - massive moon sized battle-stations possessing firepower unequaled in the history warfare, the Maw Installation - a top secret research center hidden within a cluster of black holes and Imperial Star Destroyers - the most powerful battleships of their time. All this was under control of a colossal Empire that had countless resources at its disposal - resources extracted by slaves. I'd call that a pretty effective use of slave labor.

I already told you re-read earlier posts please beni, I said is likely Palpatine was using both a mix of slaves and droids to finish the death star more quickly even his star destroyers probably are made by automated machines in large scale (big droids) than humans or aliens.

Slaves aren't the best workforce unless you are a primitive Roman, sorry in Star Wars technology is so advanced there is no need for slave labor

I wouldn't so sure about that, droids can be built faster than having kids, thats fact.

 

 

 

Cheaper alternative? managing disgruntled population are you serious?

 

Let me put it more simple, when "you" conquer a planet its easier to not enslave and actually make it part of your empire by allowing the population to work on normal conditions it actually pays more than having slaves.

 

 

I have brought my arguments on how droids are more cost efficient, you just don't agree but you can't miss the facts, that there are more arguments supporting that droids work better than slaves.

 

 

 

Let me explain to you the basics when you enslave a miner or a cloner or any other species you want them to keep producing their work, but forced-labor doesn't apply here because they might even do it wrong and you never know. instead Mining droids, Cloning droids, even repair droids can do all this tasks more efficiently.

 

 

I already told you re-read earlier posts please beni, I said is likely Palpatine was using both a mix of slaves and droids to finish the death star more quickly even his star destroyers probably are made by automated machines in large scale (big droids) than humans or aliens.

Slaves aren't the best workforce unless you are a primitive Roman, sorry in Star Wars technology is so advanced there is no need for slave labor

1. Droids can be produced faster than kids? That's nice but ignoring the actual argument, that there are already billions upon billions of organics existing in the universe, all of these are producing organics at a faster rate than any droid factory could ever produce. The amount of resources required to build as many droids as there are organics would be colossal in fact that amount of resource likely doesn't even exist in the Star Wars universe.
    
    
   
2. Again, you are making arbitrary statements without providing any evidence. You can make it as simple as you like but until you support your statements they are invalid. Take Onderon, taken by the Sepratists which led to a civilian rebellion which cost them the planet and the armies they had stationed their. Take the gosh darn Alliance to Restore the Republic, they were entirely made up of 'disgruntled populations' - are you saying they were not a costly threat?
    
    
   
3. Your arguments have been countered by more than just me, and you have failed to provide an adequate response.
    
    
   
4. But at a far greater cost, which outweighs any mistakes an organic might make. Which at least in the case of force labor would not be a factor anyway. Oh and there are no such things as cloning and ship-building droids. Assistants perhaps but nothing more.
    
    
   
5. The fact that the Empire goes out of its way to use slave labor would imply that it works. Concerning the Death Star, yes of course it was built partly with droids because organics cannot operate in space. But it was a mainly if not completely organic force that extracted and transported the materials. Note that I am not saying they are the best workforce in terms of everything, but they are concerning menial labor (note them meaning of menial - requiring little skill).
   

Another thing about the "Why not droids?" discussion:

An organic slave can do everything an organic worker can and vice versa. The slave offers more control and is in most cases probably less expensive, while the organic worker requires less administration (he buys his own food and accommodation). Naturally, some would prefer free workers and others would prefer slaves, if they had the option.

So the question "Why don't use droids instead of slaves?" becomes "Why don't use droids instead of organics in general?"

Organic workers are used in the Star Wars universe, even in jobs a droid would also be capable of. So I would assume that there are some jobs in which organics are less expensive and/or more efficient then droids. I would also assume this depends on the local economic and cultural context*.

*for example, the Sith Empire which has relied on conquest and slavery for over a thousand years probably has a far less developed droid industry than the Republic. In the Republic on the other hand, slaves are an illegal luxury good. In Hutt space it seems to depend on the Hutt and probably the business sector he is involved in.

Edit: Later on, the Galactic Empire: Slaves as luxury good were allowed. In addition they used slavery as a suppression strategy for entire worlds/species. (I think in the Imperial era there weren't many companies using slave labor to a large extend. The government did, which supports the theory that it was a suppression strategy.)

Ill start with Volition argument here:

 

Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.

 

To beni, x and aurbere:

 

Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

 

Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

 

In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

 

Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.

And to mass produce those droids would cost more than rounding up 100 organics to be sold into slavery. You are forgetting every thing that needs to go into making that droid and keeping it in good working order. best example is look at a computer or a car. Both of these are mass produced and both require massive amounts of materials, and both cost more to make than buying a loaf of bread and water. This is basic stuff. And the thought you can't keep organics in rough living conditions, I think you need to go look at history, it proves in every way you can and it's effective.

Organic slaves will always be cheaper than Droids. ALWAYS. The up keep cost is way more than the every day cost of Organics. Take your handheld game, no where near the amount of sophistication of a droid, but still the same basic principal. it has maybe a battery life of a few hours of constant play, you then have to plug it in a charger or in the wall, which costs power, which costs money. A droid would multiply that cost by hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

To prevent revolts, that's already been done with little to no cost already, look at the Egyptian slave set up, liquid bread. It had alcohol in it to passify the slaves as well as all the nutrients to keep them healthy. So that's already been solved.

Also, this debate isn't about morality. It's about cost efficiency which we well know just looking at today's society has no bearing on morality what so ever.