Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes.

Funny!

I get that neither you, nor anyone on the design team PvPs with a Gunnery Commando or Arsenal Mercenary, so are thus completely oblivious to just how badly these 'new tools' will be nerfing us, but here's the thing. Do what you want with the stun, I get it, another nerf... Because everyone thought gunnery commandos were overpowered or something (/sarcasm).

But stop trying to help us. The 'new tools' (ie ripping out our knockback and giving us, a ranged class, a melee root) are an even worse nerf.

Pretty please, with sugar on top. Stop.

Well, look.

If they actually playtest these changes with the general populace (internal testing is notoriously off base in almost even change made or proposed since Beta, not sure where they get the testers from) on the PTS and the majority find the changes enjoyable then I will digress.

However, if the populace does not react well to the stealth and wave changes, as I expect they will, and they refuse to listen to the feedback and do it anyway (as they have done many MANY times since beta started) then it will simply be lip service we are being provided.

Try to remember something Bioware. Your players, I would expect, are not all hardcore "rotation" players, they tend to be more casual "enjoy the story and experience" players at present. Just my opinion mind you, perhaps your internal numbers say different. Fun factor in specials goes a long way to make some less desirable game features and problems tolerable. Changing those features for hardcore players will not bode well if the majority of your population is casual as I expect.

We shall see. Like I said, if people are ok with it then so be it. If not and that's ignored, it will be same as always. Lip service. Nothing more.

So far you guys track record for listening to feedback has not been exactly stellar.

Yeah, a big part of the problem is how these changes have been presented.

If they had initially said something along the lines of "we're going to try some changes, we'll roll them out to the PTS, let us know what you think and we'll tweak accordingly" there wouldnt be half the problem. I don't like the sound of the Gunnery Commando changes one little bit, but I can test and either change my mind or demonstrate why they fail - and know that someone is listening.

What we've had however, is a "here's what you're gonna get, and why" type deal, with absolutely no mention of testing, or a two way discussion. This ongoing failure to engage is a huge problem for BW.

although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun

Hey! Do u know - stuns never fun!

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think the range of the knockback was ever the problem. The problem for some was the timing of the knockback versus the animation. Frankly, with the range being extended, there doesn't seem any reason to change when the knockback occurs because people should still be in range of it. Plus, keeping the animation the same but changing when the knockback occurs sounds like it's going to look really strange, but we'd have to see it to know.

Also, not being able to knockback everyone surrounding you is the new issue this brings up, I sometimes need that 360 degree knockback to get a little breathing room (plus it's just massively fun). Yes, I know, I'm just one insignificant voice in a sea of voices and you have to try to make things enjoyable for all but from what I've been seeing posted, a several folks from all parts of the game don't want the cone, not just PvEers. Only time will tell how this change, if it goes Live, will really affect people but on 'paper', I don't like it.

Yes, that would be nice.

 

PvP is a bad focus for MMOs. PvE should be prioritised.

prft! PvE should not be proritised! There is a huge amount of PvE content in this game for people that like PvE. The only place that people regulary PvP in this game is Warzones. Open World PvP as it is, is none existant, and a joke. It would be a nice addition to this game if BW gave people an insentive to participate in Open World PvP.

There is nothing wrong with making class adjustments that improve PvP as long as they don't break PvE in the process.

 

So far, I see changes, but nothing that negatively impacts PvE (unless you simply don't like change, period).

 

Besides, maybe wait until the patch goes up for testing before QQ, IMO.

Then you were not paying attention, by redesigning Force Wave/Overload the way they did that screws Tanks like me over in PvE when fighting solo because I now cant hit enemies that are behind me with Overload/Force Wave (Inquisitor/Concular) which is what the skill was originally meant for: hitting enemies in a 360 arc NOT a 120 arc. This skill has saved me more times than I can count which allows me to either escape or at least gives me a chance to think of a way to win. I dont do PvP at all for the most part this change screws over PvE players like me in a very big way. I am not saying all the changes are bad its just that after almost a year they should have left the skills the way they were. I dont see why PvE players like me need to be shafted all because PvP players complained. To me a Story based MMO which BioWare keeps saying TOR is means more Priority to PvE not PvP. These changes are not a game breaker for me but it will make curtain PvE fights more difficult than they need to be.

Yeah, a big part of the problem is how these changes have been presented.

 

If they had initially said something along the lines of "we're going to try some changes, we'll roll them out to the PTS, let us know what you think and we'll tweak accordingly" there wouldnt be half the problem. I don't like the sound of the Gunnery Commando changes one little bit, but I can test and either change my mind or demonstrate why they fail - and know that someone is listening.

 

What we've had however, is a "here's what you're gonna get, and why" type deal, with absolutely no mention of testing, or a two way discussion. This ongoing failure to engage is a huge problem for BW.

This. We are very "behind-hurt" as a playerbase. We were "told" what we wanted in Beta and continued to be told that up until now. This update is no different, as it is presented in this way....

This is who I am and what I do.

Here are the changes.

These are the exact planned changes

This is why

We think they are good changes.

And that is how it goes.

The reason this is not the best way to go with this game is that most of those changes, that design direction IMO has spelled disaster for this game up to this point, for whatever reason. Its difficult for me to trust that Bioware and/or the "internal testers" have any clue as to whats good for the game or it's populace.

Also, not being able to knockback everyone surrounding you is the new issue this brings up, I sometimes need that 360 degree knockback to get a little breathing room (plus it's just massively fun).

They compensated for this.

Sorcerers and Sages:

 

• Force Speed now has a 20-second cooldown (down from 30) for all Consulars and Inquisitors.
  
• New Sorcerer/Sage ability, Unnatural Preservation/Force Mend: Heal yourself for a moderate amount. Only usable on yourself. Instant, costs no Force, 30-second cooldown. This ability is trainable at level 18.
  
• Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration.
  
• Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.
  

If you need to get distance, you can now pop Force Speed MUCH more often.

If you get hit, you get a free, instant self-heal.

Force Speed (that thing that you popped to get away), can now remove all roots/snares and make you immune to ensure that you DO get away.

You ALSO have a new interrupt immunity, which makes BEING in melee suck less even if you CAN'T get away.

You get ALL THAT and you can STILL get everyone off of you with a little footwork and the same knockback button you always used.

Skilled Sorcs/Sages are going to be BETTER than they were before. The only people that these changes hurt are those who stubbornly refuse to pick up their game.

To be honest as a tank if i am in a group where people knocking back mobs i will ask them not to do so and then quit if they continue to do so. There is very little use to KBs in pve if you're playing with half decent people.

 

In PvP my carnage marauder looses more damage on his ravage from my team mates KBing my targets then i do from anything the enemy does....

 

So in the greater sense of things, it doesnt effect PvE much, and is useful in PvP.

Agree. These are not PvE CC, but stuns and knock-backs, which can only annoy a tank or are used when a dps pulls aggro (which he should not be doing anyway). All the usable CCs are still at range and still fully effective.

I was doing ec last night as here were at least 5 instances where nerfing the stun to 10m actually mattered.

im not saying thats a high or low numbers, but that is the number of times I would have to run into the fray to apply my stun.

another thing. I often use my 4 sec stun before my 60s cc(which is 30m). having to get/be 10m away from the mobs is not where my sorc healer wants to be, and if i have to waste my buffed run just to run away after using the 10m stun, that is not as fun.

Agree. These are not PvE CC, but stuns and knock-backs, which can only annoy a tank or are used when a dps pulls aggro (which he should not be doing anyway). All the usable CCs are still at range and still fully effective.

the useable stuns?

so you think they should just do away with all the 4 second ccs? and u think 10m is at6 range? is that how far away from toth and zorn you stand when you ranged dps it?

They compensated for this.

 

 

 

If you need to get distance, you can now pop Force Speed MUCH more often.

 

If you get hit, you get a free, instant self-heal.

 

Force Speed (that thing that you popped to get away), can now remove all roots/snares and make you immune to ensure that you DO get away.

 

You ALSO have a new interrupt immunity, which makes BEING in melee suck less even if you CAN'T get away.

 

You get ALL THAT and you can STILL get everyone off of you with a little footwork and the same knockback button you always used.

 

Skilled Sorcs/Sages are going to be BETTER than they were before. The only people that these changes hurt are those who stubbornly refuse to pick up their game.

if all that is the case its going to be fun watching them with a hutball capping in 5secs flat

We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience.

With respect, it is this kind of flawed thinking that has damaged PVE and PVP play in many MMOs. They are very different playstyles and changes made to one often have adverse effects on the other. Very few games have adopted the sensible approach of separating the two styles with different skill sets which allows each to be adjusted as necessary without affecting the other. The goal to balance the two with a single skillset is a fool's errand.

That said I will have to see these particular changes in action to determine how my gameplay will be affected.

The solution is there.

Leave wave and stealth the way it is, make it change how it works in PVP.

In PVP it would change it's mechanic to work just as it is proposed to work. The heal and other benefits would be PVP only specials.

The reason, IMO, this is the best way to go is that stealth and wave are core skills, part of the iconic special ability set for each class. To fundamentally change those mechanics for the benefit of a minor population group is ludicrous at best.

The changes are good and needed for PVP IMO, but ONLY PVP.

We will see when the testing really begins.

With respect, it is this kind of flawed thinking that has damaged PVE and PVP play in many MMOs. They are very different playstyles and changes made to one often have adverse effects on the other. Very few games have adopted the sensible approach of separating the two styles with different skill sets which allows each to be adjusted as necessary without affecting the other. The goal to balance the two with a single skillset is a fool's errand.

 

That said I will have to see these particular changes in action to determine how my gameplay will be affected.

Actually quite a few games now do exactly that...have changes that effect only PVP or PVE, and have specials act differently or be disabled in PVP or PVE.

It is now a modern mechanic.

Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

Sorry to say this, but Assassins, Shadows, Jugs and Guardians say hello. During the last round of nerfs (Yes. They were nerfs.), there was tons of feedback, thread posts with actual numbers to back up the testing for the classes I named, and all of it was summarily ignored. Not one change or tweak was implemented. It went through as advertised. And it wasn't just for the class changes. Mod extraction costs and Legacy perks says hello, too. So I'm sorry Allison if I have to call shenanigans on that statement. Y'all have already proven that the PTS is a sham and that whatever testing that the players do is for naught because y'all are going to do what you want to do regardless.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody got on the PTS to crunch the numbers again after how they were treated the last time.

the useable stuns?

 

so you think they should just do away with all the 4 second ccs? and u think 10m is at6 range? is that how far away from toth and zorn you stand when you ranged dps it?

I'm a tank, not a ranged dps.

I did not say anything about doing away with them, just that this change does not affect PVE greatly. These are stuns and knockbacks, not crowd control. Crowd control would be whirlwind, force lift, concussion missile etc.

Not sure why your ranged dps would be trying to stun Toth or Zorn.

They compensated for this.

 

If you need to get distance, you can now pop Force Speed MUCH more often.

 

If you get hit, you get a free, instant self-heal.

 

Force Speed (that thing that you popped to get away), can now remove all roots/snares and make you immune to ensure that you DO get away.

 

You ALSO have a new interrupt immunity, which makes BEING in melee suck less even if you CAN'T get away.

 

You get ALL THAT and you can STILL get everyone off of you with a little footwork and the same knockback button you always used.

None of that is compensation for the way I play (and probably others, too, from the posts I've seen). I don't need to run away from my enemies, I just need/want to knock them back on occasion (I rarely use Force Speed and usually not during combat, I don't need it). The knockback can give time to initiate a skill that has an activation time without worrying about as many pushbacks, and you can't use those while moving. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about using the knockbacks as a way to stay alive, I don't have that problem. And I'm definitely not talking about group content because you don't use knockbacks like this in a group. I'm talking about using the knockback to your advantage when soloing (handy for some class story fights) or maybe even duoing (which a lot of players do), to gain a few seconds to do whatever you need/want to do, but those seconds are wasted if you're running away. I have no need to knockback the mobs directly in front of me and then run away but that's me. Also, the way this game is, there are times where I try to position the mobs in front of me but they move and don't end up where I want them so trying to position them for the cone knockback seems like it'll be more trouble than it's worth. But as I said, we need to test these changes out to be sure.

As I said in another post, though, I can see how the changes might be useful during PvP (which their post says the changes were specifically made for), as long as you don't run right into the people you knocked back because that would just be stupid if you're trying to get away from them.

I was doing ec last night as here were at least 5 instances where nerfing the stun to 10m actually mattered.

 

im not saying thats a high or low numbers, but that is the number of times I would have to run into the fray to apply my stun.

 

another thing. I often use my 4 sec stun before my 60s cc(which is 30m). having to get/be 10m away from the mobs is not where my sorc healer wants to be, and if i have to waste my buffed run just to run away after using the 10m stun, that is not as fun.

The only time I've ever wanted to use a stun in EC is for trash mobs (hate the stealthers) and the Baradium bombers.

Trash is easy, so losing the 30m stun shouldn't impact anything.

For the bombers, there are other ways around that. Our Shadow tank pulls the bomber to the group already to speed up dps uptime. Most players will be within 10m at that point anyway.

Personally, I feel the benefits listed in 1.4 that are being added to the sage compensate for the lost range on the stun.

I talked to Senior Designer Austin Peckenpaugh and Senior PvP Designer Rob Hinkle about the concerns that developers allow changes made that primarily affect either PvP or PvE to negatively affect the other part of the game.

 

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes. We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience. If, during our playtesting, we find that one experience suffers at the cost of another, we revisit our design goals and our options and reassess our approach.

 

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around. Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

Oh I am CERTAIN is super extra fun for all the other classes, other than the ones being nerfed

Also, in regards to this. The post CLEARLY states, that these changes were being made because of Resolve/PVP issues.

They compensated for this.

 

 

 

If you need to get distance, you can now pop Force Speed MUCH more often.

 

If you get hit, you get a free, instant self-heal.

 

Force Speed (that thing that you popped to get away), can now remove all roots/snares and make you immune to ensure that you DO get away.

 

You ALSO have a new interrupt immunity, which makes BEING in melee suck less even if you CAN'T get away.

 

You get ALL THAT and you can STILL get everyone off of you with a little footwork and the same knockback button you always used.

 

Skilled Sorcs/Sages are going to be BETTER than they were before. The only people that these changes hurt are those who stubbornly refuse to pick up their game.

What about assassins, we got shafted and nothing to distract us from it like sorcerors do.

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around.

I want to hit all the targets around me, that's the whole point, it stops all enemies AROUND ME from attacking me for a couple of seconds. Why do you keep making this game less fun? You lot are amazingly good at taking what the players want and implementing the complete opposite. I know, why don't you make the ability damage the player as well while you're at it.

Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun.

It doesn't matter what you give us, adding something that is irrefutably worse is just poor game design. Why would I want to play if you make it worse? Well done, very well done. PvP in Stun Wars: The Old Republic is already stunningly bad. I'm glad you're confident internally as shortly you'll be the only people playing.

Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

We are telling you what's not fun, and we don't even have to play it to know, that's how bad it is.