Saying it like that makes it seem like he could be on Yoda's level. Do you think that's probable? I think so...

Not really. Close? Heck yeah. He'd be the greatest Old Republic opponent that Yoda could face, but I don't see Kun on Yoda's level.

Exar Kun will definitely make this list. Him and Dooku should be on this list.

But the reason my post makes Kun look on Yoda's level is because I haven't really gone into Yoda's skill. I could do that if you wanted me to.

Not really. Close? Heck yeah. He'd be the greatest Old Republic opponent that Yoda could face, but I don't see Kun on Yoda's level.

 

Exar Kun will definitely make this list. Him and Dooku should be on this list.

 

But the reason my post makes Kun look on Yoda's level is because I haven't really gone into Yoda's skill. I could do that if you wanted me to.

Yeah that makes sense.

If you want to, I'm willing to listen.

Yeah that makes sense.

 

If you want to, I'm willing to listen.

Alright, if I have the time to make a long-winded post tomorrow, I will.

Alright, if I have the time to make a long-winded post tomorrow, I will.

I'm actually excited for this.....

I'm actually excited for this.....

I don't know if I'll have time. But to be honest, I don't think I'll need to do it. We can all agree that Yoda's in the elite. His position as such isn't in question, so I probably won't have to make such a post.

Maybe I'll just PM you about it.

However, I would like to reiterate that this list will not have very large skill gaps. Even now numbers 2, 3, and 4 are practically interchangeable.

1 luke

2 yoda

3 mace

4 sidous

5 vader?

6 kun

7 garen malek

8 obi wan

9 dooku

10 malgus

something like this

Just had time to come to the foruns now. I didn't read all the 8 pages, don't know what was discussed until now. So, my list would go like this:

1. Luke Skywalker

2. Darth Caedus

3. Mace Windu

4. Yoda

5. Darth Sidious

6. Darth Vader

7. Galen Marek

8. Exar Kun

9. Darth Malgus

10. Darth Tyrannus

I know Darth Caedus as #2 is a lot controversial. I would like to make my points for it now, but I have to sleep now. Tomorrow I'll be back and dele deep into the matter.

But just to make clear, I'm not a Solo Twins fanboy, on the contrary, people who frequents the same threads I do knows I'm not very fond of the post-RotJ era. Still, I always try to base my opinions on canon facts, sometimes even I get angry with my conclusions.

I'm going to have to say Windu for #1. In skill I just have to say I think Windu was the top dog. He created his own form of saber combat long after the other forms had been solidly developed. He was just such an expert swordsman that I feel only Sidious's immense power allowed him to keep up and even them he for all intents and purposes lost the duel.

For second I'll suggest Jaina Solo. Sword of the Jedi anyone? She idolized Windu and trained (plus had immense experience) at saber combat. She had training by a myriad of sources (many the best warriors of her time) and she often fought multiple opponents while wounded. If it wasn't for her being less powerful force-wise than some others she'd have been the deadliest Jedi of the NJO and Legacy periods imo.

For third I'd have to pick Yoda. Master of pretty much all forms and also has more experience than both the previous swordsmen combined and then some. Took on (and beat, sparred, or fought to a standstill) some of the best duelists ever.

Fourth, Dooku. A true student of the blade. He practiced Makashi and as such he had expert footwork and exceptional strategy. Also studied under my #3 pick...

Other contenders imo are Luke, Sidious (though these are hard to rank due to their force power greatly augmenting their actual skill) Bane, Cadeus, Talon, Koon, Kenobi, Kun, Qui-gon, Corran Horn (and his extendable blade ), and Vader. That's the first ten I could come up with but I think they should all be considered.

Edit: King Adas FTW (double axes anyone?)

Ok I am not sure on number 2 I was almost positive yoda before but right now I am leaning Jaina Solo as a possible.

Also I do not believe Galen should quite make this list and if he does it will be number 10, he didn't defeat vader through superior saber skill only through superior force power, In shadows of the empire Vader called ESB Luke the greatest saber duelist he had ever faced so Galen would not even match up to Luke in ESB for saber skill, nor would Dooku technically because of this I feel Luke; Jaina, Caedus, Yoda, Windu, Sidious, Vader, Dooku, Kun, Obi-wan, Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn are all above Galen in terms of saber skill. Even Dooku was worried with the skill Obi-wan was showing and only bested him through force power.

Dooku obviously makes this list. Especially based on pure skill.

Yes, but Dooku is inline for fifth place, after Sidious (Palpatine), Mace Windu, and Yoda. He was good, but those three were better.

1 luke

2 yoda

3 mace

4 sidous

5 vader?

6 kun

7 garen malek

8 obi wan

9 dooku

10 malgus

 

 

something like this

Put Count Dooku ahead of Vader/Anakin, he was more skilled than Vader, and more disciplined as well, which helps in a sword fight.

Had a quick look at The Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, the most relevant quote I could find:

"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame [Windu] in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."

No other quotes comparing the two seem to be specifically about lightsaber ability.

But of course they bear weight.

Windu is something of a conundrum for me, because his very style makes him super effective against Sith but not so much against Jedi. Whereas individuals such as Yoda are excellent in all fields. Yet despite this Windu did invent the arguably perfect lightsaber form...

However I don't think the likes of Jaina and Caedus come into this just yet. They were skilled yes. But the likes of Yoda, Windu and Dooku were skilled. And that's without even mentioning THE Soresu master.

I'm going to have to say Windu for #1. In skill I just have to say I think Windu was the top dog. He created his own form of saber combat long after the other forms had been solidly developed. He was just such an expert swordsman that I feel only Sidious's immense power allowed him to keep up and even them he for all intents and purposes lost the duel.

 

For second I'll suggest Jaina Solo. Sword of the Jedi anyone? She idolized Windu and trained (plus had immense experience) at saber combat. She had training by a myriad of sources (many the best warriors of her time) and she often fought multiple opponents while wounded. If it wasn't for her being less powerful force-wise than some others she'd have been the deadliest Jedi of the NJO and Legacy periods imo.

 

For third I'd have to pick Yoda. Master of pretty much all forms and also has more experience than both the previous swordsmen combined and then some. Took on (and beat, sparred, or fought to a standstill) some of the best duelists ever.

 

Fourth, Dooku. A true student of the blade. He practiced Makashi and as such he had expert footwork and exceptional strategy. Also studied under my #3 pick...

 

Other contenders imo are Luke, Sidious (though these are hard to rank due to their force power greatly augmenting their actual skill) Bane, Cadeus, Talon, Koon, Kenobi, Kun, Qui-gon, Corran Horn (and his extendable blade ), and Vader. That's the first ten I could come up with but I think they should all be considered.

 

Edit: King Adas FTW (double axes anyone?)

Also people can we focus one at a time? This thread is kinda falling apart into a spouting of opinions.

Lets focus on #2.

I don't think we should consider Luke's skill to be mainly down to Force ability. He was just an incredible duelist. I mean, picking up Vader-calibre Djem So in a few years with barely any training? That's impossibly impressive. And then he went on to recreate the lightsaber forms.

 

Also people can we focus one at a time? This thread is kinda falling apart into a spouting of opinions.

 

Lets focus on #2.

#2 is either Yoda or Jaina, Golden era best vs NJO second best as far as skill goes, personally Yoda.

#2 is either Yoda or Jaina, Golden era best vs NJO second best as far as skill goes, personally Yoda.

I'm also leaning to Windu over Yoda. Windu mastered all the saber forms just as Yoda did, but unlike Yoda who simply took the basics of Ataru to its nth degree, Windu showed variation and skill and instead perfected a highly volatile Sith style to make it usable for Jedi - perfecting that style and arguably making it the deadliest of all forms.

I think Windu would only lose to Yoda in a fight because of superior Force ability. And we have to be careful not to blur the line between superior Force users and superior saber duelists. But that's just my opinion.

Windu would trump Jaina anyday. Jaina idolised Windu, but I don't believe she ever surpassed his saber skill.

 

I'm also leaning to Windu over Yoda. Windu mastered all the saber forms just as Yoda did, but unlike Yoda who simply took the basics of Ataru to its nth degree, Windu showed variation and skill and instead perfected a highly volatile Sith style to make it usable for Jedi - perfecting that style and arguably making it the deadliest of all forms.

 

I think Windu would only lose to Yoda in a fight because of superior Force ability. And we have to be careful not to blur the line between superior Force users and superior saber duelists. But that's just my opinion.

And I would agree with you to me the only reason Yoda is a master duelist is his ability with force speed and force valor are incredible when combined with him taking the basics of ataru to the Nth degree but since aurbere was saying he is supposedly cannon greatest duelist in the order, and his fight with palps was in fact not a straight sword fight since the first thing palps did was try to get away from the master and conquer him with force powers him losing to palps is not indicative of his saber skill.

This being said I also put Vader above Windu in terms of saber skill applying all forms of saber combat into a Djem So base is a brilliant and incredibly skillful display of lightsaber combat, the reason I said Jaina is I believe she was one to have a similar style but I am unsure.

Windu would trump Jaina anyday. Jaina idolised Windu, but I don't believe she ever surpassed his saber skill.

 

I'm also leaning to Windu over Yoda. Windu mastered all the saber forms just as Yoda did, but unlike Yoda who simply took the basics of Ataru to its nth degree, Windu showed variation and skill and instead perfected a highly volatile Sith style to make it usable for Jedi - perfecting that style and arguably making it the deadliest of all forms.

 

I think Windu would only lose to Yoda in a fight because of superior Force ability. And we have to be careful not to blur the line between superior Force users and superior saber duelists. But that's just my opinion.

I have to agree with this, if Jaina makes this list, then Caedus easily comes in above her, he could effectively combat Luke Skywalker, Jaina could only use hit and run tactics to defeat an uninterested and gravely wounded Caedus.

I have to agree with this, if Jaina makes this list, then Caedus easily comes in above her, he could effectively combat Luke Skywalker, Jaina could only use hit and run tactics to defeat an uninterested and gravely wounded Caedus.

I thought that was largely do to the disparity of their power in the force and that she was actually a more skilled duelist?

I thought that was largely do to the disparity of their power in the force and that she was actually a more skilled duelist?

It was never said she was more of a skilled duellist, he was superior in every way, the thing was he was very largely distracted, he was using Sith Battle Meditation so he wouldnt lose the ongoing battle, he was searching for Luke Skywalker and he was trying to figure out how to stop the toxin that would kill all the members of his family, including the only two things he cared about in the galaxy, his daughter and her mother.

It was never said she was more of a skilled duellist, he was superior in every way, the thing was he was very largely distracted, he was using Sith Battle Meditation so he wouldnt lose the ongoing battle, he was searching for Luke Skywalker and he was trying to figure out how to stop the toxin that would kill all the members of his family, including the only two things he cared about in the galaxy, his daughter and her mother.

A stupid question, if Caedus was a superior duelist, why'd he lose to Jaina? Sorry in terms of FORCE power, Jacen is stronger. When it comes blade to blade, Jaina was superior. Otherwise Jacen would of beaten Jaina down and tried not to get any on his boots.

Hell even Luke has said, Jaina is the best duelest in the order after him and given time on saber skills alone she could surpass him.

Though I do agree Windu would win a fight against Jaina.

A stupid question, if Caedus was a superior duelist, why'd he lose to Jaina? Sorry in terms of FORCE power, Jacen is stronger. When it comes blade to blade, Jaina was superior. Otherwise Jacen would of beaten Jaina down and tried not to get any on his boots.

 

Hell even Luke has said, Jaina is the best duelest in the order after him and given time on saber skills alone she could surpass him.

 

Though I do agree Windu would win a fight against Jaina.

Didn't what you just quoted answer your very question? he was paying her no real attention and whenever he did she lost an arm, had her back burnt and got blasted with torrents of lightning.

Didn't what you just quoted answer your very question? he was paying her no real attention and whenever he did she lost an arm, had her back burnt and got blasted with torrents of lightning.

If he was paying her no attention when she is still a threat, then he's a horrible duelist. A smart duelest would of killed her the moment he had her down then laughed about it. Fact that he didn't pay attention and lost an arm, well shows he was cocky and arrogant and not a good duelest.

If he was paying her no attention when she is still a threat, then he's a horrible duelist. A smart duelest would of killed her the moment he had her down then laughed about it. Fact that he didn't pay attention and lost an arm, well shows he was cocky and arrogant and not a good duelest.

*facepalm* are you understanding nothing I am saying, he was entirely too distracted for her, he did put her down but she kept coming back, he couldn't duel her for however long, because he was busy searching for Skywalker to put an end to him, busy using Sith Battle Meditation and trying to make sure his family wasn't murdered, do you understand now?

To be quite honest, I think we should put sparring matches to won side, everyone seems to be beating everyone these days. Heck. Even Padawan Obi-Wan beat Mace Windu in a sparring match.

 

But of course they bear weight.

Duels between two Masters is different from duels between a Master and a Padawan.

I don't think we should consider Luke's skill to be mainly down to Force ability. He was just an incredible duelist. I mean, picking up Vader-calibre Djem So in a few years with barely any training? That's impossibly impressive. And then he went on to recreate the lightsaber forms.

 

Also people can we focus one at a time? This thread is kinda falling apart into a spouting of opinions.

 

Lets focus on #2.

Djem So is an aggressive and powerful form but that also lends itself to being simpler than some other forms so picking up Djem So isn't too terribly indicative of skill especially from a individual who naturally has powerful latent force abilities that can compensate for any lack of actual skill (in this form specifically).

I'll give to you that he did indeed recreate the forms but did so with a lot of help from holocrons.

Essentially I'm trying to argue that because Luke was so powerful in the force, he really didn't need to know all that much about Saber combat than he already did. In every fight, he augments his abilities with his force powers and due to the fact his force powers are so extreme he can get away with mastering Djem So and dominating his opponents. I feel we should weight knowledge and skill more heavily than force power in this list or we'll have a near repeat of the other lists and that would be pointless.

I still maintain Windu for #1, Vaapad was just so unbelievably strong and he was a master of just about every other form as well. He was the PT order's Blademaster iirc

Also, Rayla do you have something against the Solo twins? Jacen was a competent duelist imo, but he relied heavily on his force powers to augment his abilities as did Luke and Sidious. If we're discussing actual skill with a blade, Jaina has more fights, better outcomes, and displayed more skill than her brother at almost every turn. In every fight from their first duel (on that station where they both looked like vader) to their last, Jacen was always on the defensive and could barely hold her off even with the force. Also in the last fight, he was only distracted during the last few seconds when she finally cut him down. The rest of the fight he aimed to kill her.

All that said, Windu imo takes #1 but Jaina comes in at #2. While she likely never surpassed Windu, she came as close as possible and that puts her ahead of all others. I beg of you to consider these two for the top spot, I just see Luke relying on the Force too much to be an expert duelist if force powers where equal.