Had a small break over the Christmas/New Year period from raiding and I finally got my Shadow tank to 50. I jumped back into an EC HM last night and I forgot how hard I had to work for threat on my Guardian.

Current stats are

31/51/52 with 25.2k health

Bonus damage is at 405.6

 

I am currently tanking EC NiM 3/4 with my co-tank that is a Shadow.

 

I did a fairly long session on my ops dummy to see what my TPS was and it was around 2.1k for a 5min parse with no power adrenal. This was with torparse and this number seem low, that being said I have no idea what it *should* be but I am guessing if I have our Sent whaling on the boss doing 1.8-2.2k DPS sustained in the fight and rest of the raid not far off this (~100-400 DPS lower). I am aware that tank swaps/taunts assist in pushing up threat.

On a torparse from a EC HM I am doing about 1.5k TPS sustained over the fights

 

Does anyone have any data on where our TPS *should* be at? I'll happily sit on my ship and work on eeking out every drop of threat I can by refining my pull rotation and prioritization.

 

Also I am still using my 26 Guardian hilt, is it wiser to wait for the DG main hand to finally come my way or should I get the 27 might hilt crafted as an interim solution?

about the hit, you will have no problems with just getting the 27 hilt, the endurance loss really doesn't matter and with guardians being weaker overall in terms of dps in comparison to other tank classes the additional strength will help so it's not a wasted investment. I use 27 might hilt, I am happy, no problems.

i know a couple jugs/guardians pop accuracy adrenals to guarantee their white abilities hit on their opening.

my level 17 sin holds better threat than my 50 columi/rakata geared tank jug

I got the Might Hilt made and equipped now and am heading back to normal raiding schedule tomorrow (booooo long maint tonight) so I will see how it all goes. It is difficult on the dummies as they dont hit back so no riposte and I get focus starved

I would love to see a change made to GS/CB to drop the AOE affect and add a 10% threat boost to all non taunting abilities.

Hopefully RotHC will give us some additional threat.

Hmm... in terms of threat generation, one of the best things to do is taunt at >3m. This increases your current threat by 130%. If you taunt at melee range, your threat will only go up by 110%.

 

Here is an example of a parse on Toth and Zorn HM:

 

 

286s into the Toth and Zorn Fight, (final boss switch)

Total threat = 1,005,219

Threat per second = 3515.

 

[use taunt at >3m]

 

287s into the Toth and Zorn Fight,

Total threat = 1,334,058

Threat per second = 4648.

 

Overall TPS - 4344

 

 

As the fight progresses the amount of threat generated every 15s from taunt also increases. I have yet to see a DPS hit for 300k in 2s

Hmm... in terms of threat generation, one of the best things to do is taunt at >3m. This increases your current threat by 130%. If you taunt at melee range, your threat will only go up by 110%.

 

Here is an example of a parse on Toth and Zorn HM:

 

 

286s into the Toth and Zorn Fight, (final boss switch)

Total threat = 1,005,219

Threat per second = 3515.

 

[use taunt at >3m]

 

287s into the Toth and Zorn Fight,

Total threat = 1,334,058

Threat per second = 4648.

 

Overall TPS - 4344

 

 

As the fight progresses the amount of threat generated every 15s from taunt also increases. I have yet to see a DPS hit for 300k in 2s

 

This. All except for a taunt from any range increases your threat by 130. The devs have confirmed that taunts increase threat by 130, range is not a factor. You're overall damage is pretty irrelevant since any good DPS will out threat you most any fight and especially on openings, taunts are your best friend for holding agro.

This. All except for a taunt from any range increases your threat by 130. The devs have confirmed that taunts increase threat by 130, range is not a factor.

 

I'm kinda curious about this because a lot of testing was done that demonstrate that this simply wasn't true. The only comment that I can recall from the devs concerning taunts was they they do increase your threat to the amount needed to pull aggro. They did not, however, actually say how much threat was increased by, or comment on it being independent of range. I'd be curious to see you link this statement because my experience *and* my research/knowledge base would contend that range does indeed matter.

This. All except for a taunt from any range increases your threat by 130. The devs have confirmed that taunts increase threat by 130, range is not a factor. You're overall damage is pretty irrelevant since any good DPS will out threat you most any fight and especially on openings, taunts are your best friend for holding agro.

 

That is simply not true.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/46886

 

Fight 1 = taunt at leap distance (under 2m, in fact under 1m) 110%

Fight 2 = fail, didn't taunt

Fight 3 = taunt at 3m 130%

Fight 4 = taunt at 5m 130%

 

Every taunt also gives you cca 2 threat extra lol, can try it by taunting a target as a way of starting a fight and then look at log, it generates 2 threat.

 

it is very much possible that range is not intended to be an issue but it clearly is.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

I have looked back through all the documents where I thought it was and I can't find it so either I made it up or I just haven't located the proper document first. Maybe I saw this statement:

 

they do increase your threat to the amount needed to pull aggro.

 

and inferred 130 since that is the maximum value required to pull off any tank. Not really sure.

 

Since I don't have any concrete evidence to support the claim I'll just concede to say,

 

since any good DPS will out threat you most any fight and especially on openings, taunts are your best friend for holding agro.

In terms of pulling aggro from the tank, melee DPS will pull aggro from the tank if they are at 110% above the tank's current threat. Range DPS will pull at 130%. There has been some theorycrafting for the exact range to be at for 130% to apply and this was found to be at 2.76m.

 

If a tank is constantly is able to taunt at >2.76m, he is getting a threat boost of 130% each time. As shown in my parse above this threat boost can get to 300k and even Guardian/Jugg TPS can hit over 4k.

 

If a tank is taunting at melee range (<2.76m), the threat boost he is getting is only 110%. Even the single target taunt and aoe taunts are used together this only gives a threat boost of 121%. In the event of a range DPS pulling aggro mid-way through the fight, the tank might not get back aggro.

In terms of pulling aggro from the tank, melee DPS will pull aggro from the tank if they are at 110% above the tank's current threat. Range DPS will pull at 130%.

 

Most melee will actually be at outside of the 110% range, especially on the bigger bosses. Unless they're explicitly hugging the boss, they'll require 130% just like the ranged.

 

There has been some theorycrafting for the exact range to be at for 130% to apply and this was found to be at 2.76m.

 

It's not theorycrafting. It's experimentation. Theorycrafting revolves around theory. Experimentation actually involves going in game and figuring out what's going on.

 

And your "theorycrafting" isn't even correct. The melee range for threat is based off of being within 4m of the center of the target's model; for comparison, melee range for attacks is 4m of the outside of the target's model (the range listed in the UI is actually the range from the outside of the target's model). The reason why you found 2.76m to be the "sweet spot" is because the target dummy has a model radius of 1.24m.

Hmm... if both melee and ranged DPS actually are at the 130% threshold to pull threat, then an aggro pull mid-fight without the tank range taunting is worse than I thought.

 

For those interested in the exact reference on the >2.76m taunts - http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-786-post-21688.html#pid21688

I have also found that I rarely have threat issues beyond 30s into a fight (except TFB phase 1 due to each tentacle spawning with new aggro table and NiM trenchcutters, but that's a completely different story). As such I prefer snap threat and a strong opener over high overall DPS which is why I prefer Immortal over Hybrid spec.

 

In 30s you have time to taunt twice, with AoE being your fail-safe. On a tank swap fight the first swap usually happens within this threshold which is why you have to save your single target taunt (On T&Z and F&S I taunt after 3rd GCD even though it does little in building threat but any later and I may not have a taunt ready for the swap).

 

Through testing I am currently settled at this opener:

 

0s Saber Throw - pull, 3 rage

1.5s Force Charge - close distance, 6 rage

3s Smash - nice damage, can be used while moving target, accuracy debuff, 4 stacks of armour debuff, 3 rage

4.5s Sundering Assault - kind of necessary on dummies, applies the last armour debuff making attacks hit more, 5 rage

6s Force Scream - high damage, sonic barrier 5 rage (with talent)

7.5s Backhand - high threat, 5 rage

9s Crushing Blow - high damage, high threat, refresh armour debuff, 1 rage

10.5s Force Choke - nice damage, must be talented to work well and be mobile, 4 rage

12s Ravage - high damage, 4 rage

16s Smash - nice damage, refresh armour debuff, 1 rage

 

After that opener it goes into the general lull of Enrage/Sunder/Vicious Slash and waiting on cds. The rage values are based on not generating rage via defending or having any Revenge stacks so you will end up with more, you will also be able to throw in a Retaliation when appropriate which cannot be done on the dummies. I generally taunt after the second Smash, but when I know that there are crazy DPS or I need a switch I taunt after the first Smash meaning my taunt will be up again at 19s into the fight.

 

Essentially put all your heavy hitting attacks between two Smashes, obviously the exact order can be altered. I have been toying with the idea of using 2 Crushing Blows but I can't get 12s cd on CB and using 1 without already having 5 stacks of armour debuff seems wasteful. I will try more parsing later see if I can get more even snap threat.

 

Gear: http://i.imgur.com/GOAA5.jpg - 58/61, not fully augmented, has been upgraded since

Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMGdudMdrzZcMMZ0M.2

Parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/82955

Misses:

2. Crushing Blow

4. Crushing Blow

9. Force Charge, Sundering Assault and Crushing Blow - best to ignore this fight in any statistic

12. Sundering Assault

 

Yep, missing with CB hurts snap threat, Juggs do need accuracy. I like the idea of using accuracy adrenals in openers to save rating for mitigation instead.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

where do you go to get a TPS meter?

Torparse.com

You will never get a good readout on your TPS on a dummy for a guardian, Defense or Hybrid. The reason being is that we generate addition focus for being attacked. This means in real fights you have more focus to spend on your high damage attacks. Also in the full defense spec each Slash lowers the CD on Combat Focus, therefore you can use this more often in a Defense build to generate more threat.

You will never get a good readout on your TPS on a dummy for a guardian, Defense or Hybrid. The reason being is that we generate addition focus for being attacked.

 

The bigger reason is the lack of Riposte, which, on its own, accounts for roughly 15-20% of your total DPS/TPS. The Focus generated is only one every 3 seconds (5 functional Focus every 6 seconds if you use Courage *perfectly* and keep both Blade Storm and Force Sweep on CD in perfect sync, which almost never happens) which accounts for, maybe, 10-15% of your total potential DPS lost by waiting on resources.

You will never get a good readout on your TPS on a dummy for a guardian, Defense or Hybrid. The reason being is that we generate addition focus for being attacked. This means in real fights you have more focus to spend on your high damage attacks. Also in the full defense spec each Slash lowers the CD on Combat Focus, therefore you can use this more often in a Defense build to generate more threat.

 

It's worth noting that Kitru is actually more correct about Riposte for Hybrid. In Hybrid, the stance generation is every 6 seconds. Riposte is 1 every 6 seconds so they offset each other in terms of Focus generated and used. You can have a look at threat generated from Riposte in a real world environment and add that onto a dummy parse to get a good idea of your TPS as a Hybrid Guardian. Full Defence on the other hand, your only viable (and still not accurate) option is to go pick a fight with a single Elite or Champion mob since stance generation is every 3 seconds and Courage makes a noticeable difference as Kitru mentioned.