The tanks are tanking, the healers are healing, DPS'ers are killing things, no wipes....good raid.

Pretty much my argument.

Should be kind of obvious, if a mob's health isn't dropping you're doing something wrong.... unless if it's Revan lolololol

The tanks are tanking, the healers are healing, DPS'ers are killing things, no wipes....good raid.

 

Why do you or anyone need to track anything if everything is working smoothly? Back in the old days before addons, we had to activitly search and try out new guilds or groups to find players that knew what the heck they were doing. The good raiders would be known on servers and they would stick together by world of mouth. No one cared if your rogue was the top DPS in a group, just as long as he knew what he was doing.

 

As for the your mom jokes, well if they could invent an addon to detect maturity levels you would be rich, and I would use it!

Now I didn't play EQ but I started MMO's with WoW, and even when we played early early on in MC, BWL, ZG, AQ20/40 and Naxx.. we still used Damage Meters to track play style of DPS and Healers. WoW has had addon's since shortly after release.. The game nearly never went without. Now they weren't as wide spread as they became in TBC, but they were there. Many of the leaders in the guilds at the time were already using them to critique the game play of others. Someone is always watching when there is a way.. Many of us did care as many of us were progression oriented guilds. Now there was no DBM or the like at the time.. but the fights were more gear based and not skill based. Tanking with backs to walls, wearing the right amount of resistance, basically.. just staying alive. AQ40 and Naxx were the first DPS races we ever really truely saw.

All I'm saying is these are GREAT tools for a raid leader and even personal use. I used to spend hours on a target dummy, Dr. Boom or running dungeons trying to perfect my rotations and gear sets. Can't do that without mods.. we then play a guessing game and break out the old stopwatch again.

if im not forced to use an addon... than why if they were released would people be saying you must have X or Y Dps.. and Z or Q Healing.... or you cant run with us... Thats forcing people to have addons so they can know their Number of dps or heals

Because on some fights, if you don't have X or Y DPS, you wipe. Enrage timers.

There's no such thing as "not being forced to use them". As soon as add ons are made available they will completely infect the mindset of the game and anyone not using them will be outcast. They become the simplest and laziest way to make decisions on people and therefore anyone not using them will be unable to join raids or groups or guilds. You can be just as elite a player doing just as well but be much more intuitive in the mechanics of a fight without add ons as you don't get the people who just stare at dps meters or threat meters or waiting for an add-on to tell them to move out of the fire instead of just watching the fight and moving when they should.

Just tell people you have the addons. They wont know. If you do good DPS, you're fine, if you do bad DPS, you'll get called out on it. Then you know you should improve.

What I find hilarious is that people are like "the majority don't want addons and won't use them, don't do it bioware!!".

Then there are people saying "you WILL be forced to use addons cos guilds will require you to use them".

Solution: Join a guild that doesn't require addons. Should be easy to find, since ya know... the majority of players don't want them.

we need addons its personal preference why does the way we play bother you?

is your small brain unable to figure out how they work?

are you really bad and don't want people to be even better?

the UI is horrible hopefully they allow some and i can make my own personal UI.

 

So explain to me why you dont want addons because it just makes little sense

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're so unintelligent that you need addons to make a simple game playable. There's no need for addons. Quit crying.

You people just want to give others crap for having lower DPS than you etc. That's ALL there is to it. Move on. We don't need you trolls in our game.

if im not forced to use an addon... than why if they were released would people be saying you must have X or Y Dps.. and Z or Q Healing.... or you cant run with us... Thats forcing people to have addons so they can know their Number of dps or heals

Oh GOD FORBID people want to play an MMO and be competitive.

Seriously people that complain about addons and dps meters or player stats are

A: Bad at the game and don't want to be easily spotted

or

B: Never played at a competitive level and don't know what it takes.

I NEED a target of target frame.

I WANT a dps meter.

I want to be able to take people on trial runs and decide if they're going to be an asset or just another person to carry.

Seriously, why would I recruit a Merc that has the same gear as me and can only do half the DPS that I'm doing in the? Or why should I recruit a healer that can't manage to heal more than 2 people without getting flustered?

All the information to play your class is out there. If you can't be bothered to learn it, or you're just too lazy then why should you get the opportunity of someone who want's to be better and wants to be worthy of that raid spot?

Basically right now the only way to judge a player is seeing how stupid they are..if they stand in AOE, don't target the right mob or die repeatedly to the same thing. This is just part of it. A person can be aware of their surroundings and know the boss fights but if they're doing poorly at playing their class, whether it be DPS, Tank or Healer how am I going to know?

Basically right now the only way to judge a player is seeing how stupid they are..if they stand in AOE, don't target the right mob or die repeatedly to the same thing. This is just part of it. A person can be aware of their surroundings and know the boss fights but if they're doing poorly at playing their class, whether it be DPS, Tank or Healer how am I going to know?

You could open your eyes and observe what they are doing? Might take a little more effort and skill on your part but, you know, you're intelligent and great at playing the game right?

As a guild leader and raid leader, I know how my raid members are performing without the aid of addons. I've been raid leading for 5 years now and its never been an issue. The only thing that not having addons means is that the conversation with the underperforming player is more uncomfortable because you lack proof.

But, its your guild right? You are leading right? So you make the rules. If you are carrying someone and are fed up then just talk to that person and sort it out. Be an adult. I bet the person didn't even know they were rubbish and thus didn't try to improve. The best thing I ever did in a previous guild was implement a "core" list. All my good raiders were put on the core list, everyone else was left off. Those left off fell into two camps: clueless but didn't care, and clueless but wanted to improve. Those that didn't care got benched or left the guild, those that wanted to improve sought out help and got way better.

All the reasoning that people come up with for addons (improving rotations, ranking players, giving more information etc) are all just crutches to make the game easier. You don't need addons to be a good DPS. You dont need addons to kill bosses. They just make things easier and can end up trivialising content. Introducing addons that analyse combat logs, give informaiton on bosses, press buttons for you or whatever make the game easier (i.e. are crutches) but lower the tone and maturity of the playerbase and help support elitism.

So, yes to UI addons, no to everything else.

I bet the person didn't even know they were rubbish and thus didn't try to improve.

You're right, because they have no Combat Log

Personally I don't care very much, but as many people I do have an opinion on the subject.

1. Addons such as UI, such be allowed - Some people likes it more simple, some more advanced with more options - atm there are none, so allowing these wouldn't change much.

2. DPS, Threat, Healing-meters, I don't think we need this as an Addon - but instead something which can be shown after each boss fight for example to see who does well and who don't (Implement one over all of the instance won't show anything but who slacks more on grps and such).

3. An addon that keeps track of cooldowns, this I don't think should be allowed. If you're a hardcore raider and says endgame content was easy in wow - well thank the healbot system and many more as described before in this topic - ridicoulous, either you know your class or not. Keeping track of cds is something you should learn - also make you play the game not some addon.

You want damage meters?

BIOWARE, please provide an instanced training area with DUMMY TARGETS to measure DPS. It can be a like a HOLODECK training ground. This way, damage meters can actually be used for what it was intended for, performance tweaking and not prejudicial conclusions.

EDIT:

 

2. DPS, Threat, Healing-meters, I don't think we need this as an Addon - but instead something which can be shown after each boss fight for example to see who does well and who don't (Implement one over all of the instance won't show anything but who slacks more on grps and such).

 

This would be a much simpler idea, and I like it. Just like the WARZONE summary but for Flashpoints and Operations.

You want damage meters?

 

BIOWARE, please provide an instanced training area with DUMMY TARGETS to measure DPS. It can be a like a HOLODECK training ground. This way, damage meters can actually be used for what it was intended for, performance tweaking and not epeen measurement.

I like the idea - good thinking.

we need addons its personal preference why does the way we play bother you?

is your small brain unable to figure out how they work?

are you really bad and don't want people to be even better?

the UI is horrible hopefully they allow some and i can make my own personal UI.

 

So explain to me why you dont want addons because it just makes little sense

A lot of the more fun game mechanics found in games where (advanced... basic UI add-ons and stuff are fine) add-ons aren't allowed cannot possibly make it in a game where add-ons do exist, as it trivializes them. The only type of raid that can possibly be made are choreography style raids (as are pretty much 100% of raids in WoW), and that gets boring something fast.

Simple enough for you?

This is a moot point. Bioware has already announced in upcoming patches they will be introducing a damage meter as well as a UI customization option.

Bioware has also stated previously (Believe it was a Forum Moderator) that third party addons would not be allowed for SW:ToR. Not sure if it was in general, or just for Beta testing but yeah. Further more, alot of addons will break the game until the developers of said patches can figure out a way to add them in without interfering with an enormous game structure. Overall I don't see third party addons as a foreseeable investment I am willing to make. If Bioware offers damage parsing (as some one else noted) I would occasionally use it.

Furthermore. I played WoW when there were no Addons, and yet for some reason when I raided I did just fine. I played seven years, raided in Vanilla WoW, Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm without addons. I think after playing for so long I knew what my character had to do and how to play them efficiently enough to where I could max out my DPS/Threat without monitoring it every second.

 

As a guild leader and raid leader, I know how my raid members are performing without the aid of addons. I've been raid leading for 5 years now and its never been an issue. The only thing that not having addons means is that the conversation with the underperforming player is more uncomfortable because you lack proof.

 

I totally disagree. You were not able to properly assess your players without add ons. This might have been okay for a semi-casual guild, but it will not work for players who are performing at the highest level.

Not standing is stuff and doing your rotation properly is par for the course, not what makes an exceptional player. A top-end player is the best of the best and they are evaluated on so many different things. Damage output, interrupts, damage taken, positioning, what mobs they attacked and countless other factors.

Add-ons are an absolute necessity for this game to be taken seriously by competitive gamers. Anyone who says different has not played at the highest level.

we need addons its personal preference why does the way we play bother you?

is your small brain unable to figure out how they work?

are you really bad and don't want people to be even better?

the UI is horrible hopefully they allow some and i can make my own personal UI.

 

So explain to me why you dont want addons because it just makes little sense

We don't need addons. It's personal preference. Why does the way we play bother you?

The UI does need some work, but let BioWare fix it or make it customizable themselves.

So explain to us why you have to have addons because it makes little sense.

There is a simple explanation to having certain things like threat meter and some sort of counter that is essential to todays mmo raiding.

9 times out of 10 you will have everyone set ready to go for tomorrows raid and when it comes along 1 to 3 people are missing. Then you go into pluging a sub in who you dont normally play with. This guy is a dps'er and he is doing only a third of what he is suppose to be doing with his gear level for this dps race boss. Wipe after wipe after wipe you wonder who is the issue with dps that we cant beat the enrage timer for. Its simple you will know if you use a meter.

As when it comes to threat meters its another simple explanation. You know as a dps'er and healer what threat you normally pull and when you can go all out. If there is an issue with a tank's threat it's something that can be noticed when you watch the meter. Either the tank is not getting enough threat and why? or the DPS'er is making too much and why?

These two only supplement the raid leader in finding out who in his/her raid is not doing their job or doesn't know how to play their character. Otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

Now I would love if BW awknowledged this need and instead of having a third party make add ons, put it in the game internally so there wont be a big download fuss and add ons working with patches.

These two things are necessary and if you want to down end game bosses before a million nerfs for the bad players than it's needed. When the system whether it be add-on or new in game option to turn on and off then you will use it or enjoy the operations accomplishment from the side lines at the fleet

I totally disagree. You were not able to properly assess your players without add ons. This might have been okay for a semi-casual guild, but it will not work for players who are performing at the highest level.

 

Not standing is stuff and doing your rotation properly is par for the course, not what makes an exceptional player. A top-end player is the best of the best and they are evaluated on so many different things. Damage output, interrupts, damage taken, positioning, what mobs they attacked and countless other factors.

 

Add-ons are an absolute necessity for this game to be taken seriously by competitive gamers. Anyone who says different has not played at the highest level.

Exactly.

Addons = Necessity

Watch this game go down the sink hole without em.

Certain addons I find do have their value, such as parsing addons and ui customizations. No problems there.

What I would prefer not to see would be a SWTOR equivalent to DBM. What I found happened in WoW was this addon began as a simple tool, just as people argue, which was simply informative of some mechanic coming up. It ended up turning into the game's worst necessary crutch, because the devs started making encounters so complex that it's near impossible to keep track of every single little thing that's happening. Sure there are some exceptions even in the Dragon Soul raid, but in general most encounters have made it necessary because they're designed around the fact that the addon simply exists.

I enjoy challenges as much as any other raider, but at the same time the complexity should be such that you can keep track of everything without an addon.

I'd rather have the game be aimed at the casual gaming majority, not balanced for the "competitive gamers". Nothing ruins a game faster than balancing content for the tiny minority of "professional raiders".

Lotr Online is a fantasic game but does not allow add on and has a very small professional gaming end game.

This game failed even though its amazing because people don't want to play a second class game. People want to play the best and they want to strive to be the best and play with the best players.

No one watches the WNBA even though those women have amazing talent. Why? Is it because they would get destroyed by NBA players. People want to emulate the best.

Don't allow add on and you wont get professional gamers. No professional gamers and this game is dead in 6 months. Its a neccessary evil.

Never have i heard of a addon doing this, please link me to one. I seen addons tell me when things proc, or number of seconds left on a cooldown. I have read up on rotations to max out my dps, but never have i seen a addon that does what you used as a example of. DPS charts may be elitist, but if you arent pulling your weight in a fight why should you get a fair shot at the gear im rolling on?

In WoW there was a mod called "Healbot". It literally brought healing down to 1 button. You clicked the button, it picked the person with the lowest health, and cast the lowest minimum heal on them.

So the entire fight, all you do is click the one button and occasionally step out of the fire.

I installed it, was horrified by what it did, and boycotted it ever since.