She didn't have to say anything at all...

She was being released, the Sith could think of her being a threat to them, so it would be the best to tell them she went to serve the Emperor.

No, it fit her character well, she would be stupid to say "I hate your emperor" before the Wrath and a Dark Council member.

Her dying monologue makes it pretty explicit that she was intent on dying. She had planned her death well in advance, and it was central to her plan. If she really wanted to kill the Force, then she needed to die along with the Exile. If she wanted to mold the Exile in to the perfect Jedi, the training required that she die by the Exile's hand. She viewed mercy as the ultimate insult, and redemption as the ultimate betrayal of one's self.

To become the Entity, she would've had to survive death and become one with the Force (or use some other ritual to become a Force ghost). To me, that very notion is absurd. She hated the Force, but wielded it like one would wield a poison. It was merely a means to an end (namely, the Exile). And with her death at Malachor, her end was already achieved. She did not fear death, and becoming one with the Force would be a cruel irony, as far as her character was concerned, as she would be forever part of the one thing she hated most.

She just... can't be the Force Entity, even if everything that came out of the Entity's mouth was a trick. Besides, if she really were Kreia, she wouldn't have lied like that. She was far more fond of half-truths, which were far more effective and cruel.

Her dying monologue makes it pretty explicit that she was intent on dying. She had planned her death well in advance, and it was central to her plan. If she really wanted to kill the Force, then she needed to die along with the Exile. If she wanted to mold the Exile in to the perfect Jedi, the training required that she die by the Exile's hand. She viewed mercy as the ultimate insult, and redemption as the ultimate betrayal of one's self.

 

To become the Entity, she would've had to survive death and become one with the Force (or use some other ritual to become a Force ghost). To me, that very notion is absurd. She hated the Force, but wielded it like one would wield a poison. It was merely a means to an end (namely, the Exile). And with her death at Malachor, her end was already achieved. She did not fear death, and becoming one with the Force would be a cruel irony, as far as her character was concerned, as she would be forever part of the one thing she hated most.

 

She just... can't be the Force Entity, even if everything that came out of the Entity's mouth was a trick. Besides, if she really were Kreia, she wouldn't have lied like that. She was far more fond of half-truths, which were far more effective and cruel.

She knew the Sith Emperor's existence as we saw in the end of KOTOR 2 she mentioned it. Why wouldn't she become a ghost and try to take down this mad man, who wanted to devour the whole galaxy, which was against her goal, to free people from the reign of the Force? She hates the Force but she still uses it as her mean to the end in KOTOR2.

She knew the Sith Emperor's existence as we saw in the end of KOTOR 2 she mentioned it. Why wouldn't she become a ghost and try to take down this mad man, who wanted to devour the whole galaxy, which was against her goal, to free people from the reign of the Force? She hates the Force but she still uses it as her mean to the end in KOTOR2.

She knew that the "True Sith" were lingering beyond the borders of known space, and that they would return, yes. However, even with all the knowledge she found at the Trayus Academy, there was no way she could have known about the Emperor or his plans. The Emperor was no fool, and kept that a closely guarded secret that only a handful of people (pun intended) knew about. She didn't even know where exactly the Sith Empire was (the information was locked in the Ebon Hawk's navicomputer). All she had were a few things she had learned from Revan and her own guesswork. She prepared the Exile as best she could, because she had no clue what lied beyond known space.

She knew that the "True Sith" were lingering beyond the borders of known space, and that they would return, yes. However, even with all the knowledge she found at the Trayus Academy, there was no way she could have known about the Emperor or his plans. The Emperor was no fool, and kept that a closely guarded secret that only a handful of people (pun intended) knew about. She didn't even know where exactly the Sith Empire was (the information was locked in the Ebon Hawk's navicomputer). All she had were a few things she had learned from Revan and her own guesswork. She prepared the Exile as best she could, because she had no clue what lied beyond known space.

She clearly knew it.

"How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy—faced war and death on such a scale. If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhaps you would have seen it for what it was. There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion... culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from—save one. And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid."

I think it is Darth Traya,

It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.

The technique that created Malachor V was not the same technique that the Emperor used to become immortal. Revan's reason for using the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor, and creating echoes, was as part of his "war of conversion" throughout the Mandalorian Wars to eliminate his enemies and people not loyal to him, and to corrupt the allies that were. Dxun, Malachor, Dantooine, Telos, and Nar Shadaa are all examples of worlds that created echoes fueled by war. It's just that Malachor was the most potent example due to to being an order of magnitude bloodiest and most sudden. I'm pretty sure that Malachor wasn't supposed to create a wound in the Force or people like Nihilus and the Exile who could feed on the Force.

Kreia knew that feeding on the Force of others was a Sith technique, yes. She saw it as an incredibly dangerous technique that needed to be wiped out. However, the larger reason for this was that it would inevitably lead to the practitioner becoming like Nihilus, who would consume entire planets and still not be sated, and whose mind would eventually be consumed by hunger until only primal instinct remained. The Sith Emperor had to have used a different (but similar) technique, because he is very much still in control of his mind. One is a breach in the Force, the other is not. Nihilus was a Force of Nature, the Emperor was a Force of Will. Nihilus's method could only be learned through instinct, not taught. I'm not 100% positive, but I think the Emperor developed his method through his knowledge of Sith alchemy or magic. From the way Kreia talked of it, it's clear that she thought it was impossible to maintain one's faculties while wielding that ability, so the Emperor's method was obviously unknown to her.

I think it is Darth Traya,

but not Kreia.

 

I believe that the Sith Entity being held and used by Darth Baras is the second Darth Traya, the Fallen Jedi Master Atris, who also sold out the Jedi at the Conclave on Katarr and nearly destroyed the Jedi Order.

 

She more physically resembles Atris anyway.

Now that's an interesting theory.

The technique that created Malachor V was not the same technique that the Emperor used to become immortal. Revan's reason for using the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor, and creating echoes, was as part of his "war of conversion" throughout the Mandalorian Wars to eliminate his enemies and people not loyal to him, and to corrupt the allies that were. Dxun, Malachor, Dantooine, Telos, and Nar Shadaa are all examples of worlds that created echoes fueled by war. It's just that Malachor was the most potent example due to to being an order of magnitude bloodiest and most sudden. I'm pretty sure that Malachor wasn't supposed to create a wound in the Force or people like Nihilus and the Exile who could feed on the Force.

 

Kreia knew that feeding on the Force of others was a Sith technique, yes. She saw it as an incredibly dangerous technique that needed to be wiped out. However, the larger reason for this was that it would inevitably lead to the practitioner becoming like Nihilus, who would consume entire planets and still not be sated, and whose mind would eventually be consumed by hunger until only primal instinct remained. The Sith Emperor had to have used a different (but similar) technique, because he is very much still in control of his mind. One is a breach in the Force, the other is not. Nihilus was a Force of Nature, the Emperor was a Force of Will. Nihilus's method could only be learned through instinct, not taught. I'm not 100% positive, but I think the Emperor developed his method through his knowledge of Sith alchemy or magic. From the way Kreia talked of it, it's clear that she thought it was impossible to maintain one's faculties while wielding that ability, so the Emperor's method was obviously unknown to her.

Breaking other's will and turn them, is the Sith Emperor's technique.

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor was doing pretty much the same thing, it does not matter their goal is slightly different. He is crazy even in the eyes of the rest of the Empire if they knew his true purpose.

Breaking other's will and turn them, is the Sith Emperor's technique.

 

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor was doing pretty much the same thing, it does not matter their goal is slightly different. He is crazy even in the eyes of the rest of the Empire if they knew his true purpose.

Revan achieved breaking people's wills through how terrible war is, and through subtle manipulation of echoes. He also used nexuses of the Dark Side to break the wills of Force Users, but he didn't really start doing that until after he had been captured by the Emperor. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how the Emperor was able to break the wills of the Sith on Nathema, we just know that he did. But manipulating and turning people is hardly unique to the Sith Emperor. The technique I was specifically referring to was the Sith ritual that gave him immortality, which is unique to only him. I doubt even the Hand know the details of the ritual.

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor had wildly different goals, though they essentially had the same endpoint. To be accurate, Nihilus was physically incapable of having a goal, because he was essentially a walking corpse. All he cared about was satisfying his hunger. But, since he was a hole in the Force, he could never have his fill. If left unchecked, he would have consumed every living thing in the universe, and then he would starve to death, because there would be nothing left to feed on. The Sith Emperor, on the other hand, is himself essentially a Force nexus and very much has goals. If left unchecked, he would consume every living thing in the universe, but not because of hunger. He wanted to have unlimited power and to live forever. They are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. Both sides are death, but the Emperor would have been eternal and Nihilus would have been nothing.

Revan achieved breaking people's wills through how terrible war is, and through subtle manipulation of echoes. He also used nexuses of the Dark Side to break the wills of Force Users, but he didn't really start doing that until after he had been captured by the Emperor. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how the Emperor was able to break the wills of the Sith on Nathema, we just know that he did. But manipulating and turning people is hardly unique to the Sith Emperor. The technique I was specifically referring to was the Sith ritual that gave him immortality, which is unique to only him. I doubt even the Hand know the details of the ritual.

 

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor had wildly different goals, though they essentially had the same endpoint. To be accurate, Nihilus was physically incapable of having a goal, because he was essentially a walking corpse. All he cared about was satisfying his hunger. But, since he was a hole in the Force, he could never have his fill. If left unchecked, he would have consumed every living thing in the universe, and then he would starve to death, because there would be nothing left to feed on. The Sith Emperor, on the other hand, is himself essentially a Force nexus and very much has goals. If left unchecked, he would consume every living thing in the universe, but not because of hunger. He wanted to have unlimited power and to live forever. They are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. Both sides are death, but the Emperor would have been eternal and Nihilus would have been nothing.

I agree with what you have to say about Darth Nihilus. He was nothing more than a monster, created in the aftermath of the events on Malachor V. Darth Vitiate, however, is a vicious, cunning and resourceful Sith Lord.

Since he supposedly shares the ability to consume life from living beings, as Nihilus did, one can reason that Nihilus may have been a Jedi Knight at one point. We know that Kreia trained Darth Sion as her apprentice. It's possible that Sion broke a Knight who went to fight the Mandalorians and took him as an Apprentice, because Kreia had no knowledge of Nihilus until he appeared to confront her with his master in the Trayus Academy.

Its also possible that during her exile, she traveled to the outer rim and discovered either Korriban or Dromund Kaas. I think Korriban would be more likely since she clearly created a Sith Order of her own, based upon the Rule of Two, which at the time was her and Sion. I'll even go one further.....what if, during her exile from the Jedi Order, she discovered Korriban, and learned of its secrets? Remember that Darth Vitiate's Master was/is entombed in the Valley of the Dark Lords, so if she discovered the Tomb of Marka Ragnos, she might have gained some of the knowledge that Vitiate possessed, if not more.

As far as Revan goes, remember that Kreia was his Jedi Master when he was a Padawan. She taught him so much of what she knew, including whatever she may have learned of the Dark Side. She appointed herself Darth Traya when she was exiled out of the order for her unorthodox training methods.

I agree with what you have to say about Darth Nihilus. He was nothing more than a monster, created in the aftermath of the events on Malachor V. Darth Vitiate, however, is a vicious, cunning and resourceful Sith Lord.

 

Since he supposedly shares the ability to consume life from living beings, as Nihilus did, one can reason that Nihilus may have been a Jedi Knight at one point. We know that Kreia trained Darth Sion as her apprentice. It's possible that Sion broke a Knight who went to fight the Mandalorians and took him as an Apprentice, because Kreia had no knowledge of Nihilus until he appeared to confront her with his master in the Trayus Academy.

 

Its also possible that during her exile, she traveled to the outer rim and discovered either Korriban or Dromund Kaas. I think Korriban would be more likely since she clearly created a Sith Order of her own, based upon the Rule of Two, which at the time was her and Sion. I'll even go one further.....what if, during her exile from the Jedi Order, she discovered Korriban, and learned of its secrets? Remember that Darth Vitiate's Master was/is entombed in the Valley of the Dark Lords, so if she discovered the Tomb of Marka Ragnos, she might have gained some of the knowledge that Vitiate possessed, if not more.

 

As far as Revan goes, remember that Kreia was his Jedi Master when he was a Padawan. She taught him so much of what she knew, including whatever she may have learned of the Dark Side. She appointed herself Darth Traya when she was exiled out of the order for her unorthodox training methods.

Pretty interesting stuff. If I remember correctly, Kreia was exiled for her unusual philosophical views and training methods. Her teachings weren't Dark Sided, per se, but she was definitely an advocate of skepticism, which could easily lead to her pupils falling to the Dark Side. Like in the case of Revan, and possibly a few other unnamed apprentices. It's also interesting to point out that Atris thought she had perished in the Mandalorian Wars. Which meant that she was exiled before the battle of Malachor. That leaves a large gap of time between the Mandalorian Wars and when she set foot in Trayus Academy, which was at some point after the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War.

She could have visited Korriban, but I was under the impression that she only visited after falling to the Dark Side at Trayus Academy. The Sith she led were not her own creation. They were whatever remnants that survived the Jedi Civil War, as well as Sion (who'd been around since the war with Exar Kun) and Nihilus, who was born of Malachor. Kreia took them both as apprentices, until they exiled her sometime before the events of KOTOR2. She never visited Dromund Kaas, though. She always talked about how she didn't know where Revan had gone, or where the True Sith were, only that she knew they were out there somewhere, and she almost always spoke in hypotheticals.

I don't know if she ever set foot inside the tombs, as when you visit Korriban, all the tombs had been covered up or otherwise ruined. But it's certainly possible that she did.

Revan achieved breaking people's wills through how terrible war is, and through subtle manipulation of echoes. He also used nexuses of the Dark Side to break the wills of Force Users, but he didn't really start doing that until after he had been captured by the Emperor. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how the Emperor was able to break the wills of the Sith on Nathema, we just know that he did. But manipulating and turning people is hardly unique to the Sith Emperor. The technique I was specifically referring to was the Sith ritual that gave him immortality, which is unique to only him. I doubt even the Hand know the details of the ritual.

 

Nihilus and the Sith Emperor had wildly different goals, though they essentially had the same endpoint. To be accurate, Nihilus was physically incapable of having a goal, because he was essentially a walking corpse. All he cared about was satisfying his hunger. But, since he was a hole in the Force, he could never have his fill. If left unchecked, he would have consumed every living thing in the universe, and then he would starve to death, because there would be nothing left to feed on. The Sith Emperor, on the other hand, is himself essentially a Force nexus and very much has goals. If left unchecked, he would consume every living thing in the universe, but not because of hunger. He wanted to have unlimited power and to live forever. They are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. Both sides are death, but the Emperor would have been eternal and Nihilus would have been nothing.

Mindwash is the Emperor's skill, he used it quite a few times in the JK story.

Nihilus also had goal, to feed his hunger. The Sith Emperor is also crazy and wanted to devour all, why would Traya want to see everything being consumed and everyone lose their free will? That's against everything she stands for.

Mindwash is the Emperor's skill, he used it quite a few times in the JK story.

 

Nihilus also had goal, to feed his hunger. The Sith Emperor is also crazy and wanted to devour all, why would Traya want to see everything being consumed and everyone lose their free will? That's against everything she stands for.

That's right, she wouldn't want to see everything be consumed and everyone lose their free will. But she didn't know about the Emperor, and therefore it would have been impossible for her to know about the Emperor's plans. And as I said, and as Kreia herself said, Nihilus wasn't capable of having any coherent thoughts because he was no longer a man; he was a hole in the Force and was a slave to his hunger. I'm pretty sure she even said that he was already dead, but that his body had yet to fall.

That's right, she wouldn't want to see everything be consumed and everyone lose their free will. But she didn't know about the Emperor, and therefore it would have been impossible for her to know about the Emperor's plans. And as I said, and as Kreia herself said, Nihilus wasn't capable of having any coherent thoughts because he was no longer a man; he was a hole in the Force and was a slave to his hunger. I'm pretty sure she even said that he was already dead, but that his body had yet to fall.

Who said she didn't know the Emperor? She knew the existence of his Empire, why wouldn't she know about him?

Nihilus' action is what made his horrible, just like the Emperor.

Who said she didn't know the Emperor? She knew the existence of his Empire, why wouldn't she know about him?

 

Nihilus' action is what made his horrible, just like the Emperor.

Not once did Kreia say anything about the Sith Empire, aside from knowing that it exists. She doesn't even know if they're pureblood or not, just that they are "True" Sith, not merely Dark Jedi who take up the moniker. Really, she doesn't even know about them firsthand, just that Revan found something beyond known space, and that he went off to (presumably) to fight it. He never talked to anyone about what he saw. Likewise, Kreia knew from the holocrons at Trayus academy that Malachor and Korriban were on the edges of the old Sith Empire (the one wiped out in the Great Sith War). Putting two and two together, she came to the conclusion that there must be remnants of the Empire still out there. Even still, she always talked in conjecture. Which meant she didn't really have hard evidence that they were still around. And besides, knowing that there's a Sith Empire out there does not mean you know there's an omnicidal, nigh omnipotent God-Emperor who'd been planning revenge for nearly a millennium.

Not once did Kreia say anything about the Sith Empire, aside from knowing that it exists. She doesn't even know if they're pureblood or not, just that they are "True" Sith, not merely Dark Jedi who take up the moniker. Really, she doesn't even know about them firsthand, just that Revan found something beyond known space, and that he went off to (presumably) to fight it. He never talked to anyone about what he saw. Likewise, Kreia knew from the holocrons at Trayus academy that Malachor and Korriban were on the edges of the old Sith Empire (the one wiped out in the Great Sith War). Putting two and two together, she came to the conclusion that there must be remnants of the Empire still out there. Even still, she always talked in conjecture. Which meant she didn't really have hard evidence that they were still around. And besides, knowing that there's a Sith Empire out there does not mean you know there's an omnicidal, nigh omnipotent God-Emperor who'd been planning revenge for nearly a millennium.

Because it's not related to her topic?

The "True" Sith Empire was created in 4900 BBY, 900 years before Exar Kun's rise. Of course there would be information about the Emperor, especially he already showed power before the Great Hyperspace War. The Empire was almost purely his creation, why wouldn't his information be known?

Because it's not related to her topic?

The "True" Sith Empire was created in 4900 BBY, 900 years before Exar Kun's rise. Of course there would be information about the Emperor, especially he already showed power before the Great Hyperspace War. The Empire was almost purely his creation, why wouldn't his information be known?

Because Vitiate made the Empire in secret? He and his followers wouldn't have left any information behind about their new empire because they were escaping genocide at the hands of the Jedi. If they left any clues as to their whereabouts or even that they still existed, the Republic would track them down. They wandered through space for twenty years, making random hyperspace jumps, before they found Dromund Kaas because they didn't want to be followed. Dromund Kaas was chosen specifically because records of its location had been lost. On top of that, the Jedi pretty much destroyed all the Sith relics they could find. So even if they had left information behind, it almost certainly would have been lost, especially after 900 years.

Because Vitiate made the Empire in secret? He and his followers wouldn't have left any information behind about their new empire because they were escaping genocide at the hands of the Jedi. If they left any clues as to their whereabouts or even that they still existed, the Republic would track them down. They wandered through space for twenty years, making random hyperspace jumps, before they found Dromund Kaas because they didn't want to be followed. Dromund Kaas was chosen specifically because records of its location had been lost. On top of that, the Jedi pretty much destroyed all the Sith relics they could find. So even if they had left information behind, it almost certainly would have been lost, especially after 900 years.

The Jedi were able to recover the information of his history to create the Empire, so there should be enough record showing it. They made those recording even before they rescued Revan.