Can you name any multi player online games centered on pvp that have over a million players other than WoW (which is pve centric anyway) that use the gear>skill system?

 

I can name plenty that don't.

 

Battlefield, CoD franchise, Halo, League, DOTA, Starcraft, etc...

 

These games keep their players hooked with maps, balance, fun and variety- not gear. Even WoW's pvp is on a sharp decline.

 

I'd be willing to bet outside of WoW- the top pvp community is GW2, and they didn't even do many things right in pvp other than the lack of gear.

 

If you don't like pvp for fun- you won't stay long anyway, you'll leave once you get your gear. It's the people who enjoy pvp who will be your long term players. Regardless- there's so many things to grind other than stat bonuses that are proven that people grind for- pets, mounts, titles, cosmetic gear, etc...

 

The idea that gear treadmills make games last longer may have held up five years ago- but right now the evidence is showing that's absolutely not the case.

 

In fact- right now casual games are on the rise, hence why puzzle games and mobile phone games are some of the hottest products right now. Ease of play- you pick up, you play, no hassle involved. BW shot themselves in the foot by making a game to compete with mmos of last decade rather than trying to match current gaming trends.

RGR that. Smartest thing I heard here. PvP is depressing right now. You walk in, face a full WH team against Recruit/BM and you get pounced. Gear should give an edge, not a win. And they should release maps and do events more frequently to keep people playing. And have a ladder for ranked PvP (or just any PvP).

Gear gap is what is killing PvP imo right now.

So expertise finally does what it should be doing.

- Keeping a difference between pve and pvp gear so the two can exist independently of each other. NOT causing a further gear gap.

PvE by it's nature needs to increment to stay fresh, pvp doesn't really. If expertise keeps a stat buffer between the two then we don't need to force a pvp tier of gear every time there's a new pve raid.

This is a good thing because less gear resets in pvp means less frustration for the players and more time for BW to make a new set of gear that isn''t just a recolour.

What they need to do now is continue EWH's trend of "only a small gear advantage" ASWELL as introducing new pvp tiers that LOOK good. Recoloured skins are not good enough in my opinion.

Also incidental PSA: If you have BM gear and aren't augmenting it. Then as your WZ healer. I hate you.

Like pvp has not been destroyed enough. Sorry but having gear with 1% better stats and same otherwise but takes a hell of alot longer to get is not a good enough reward. Really though to those talking about gear in pvp not being the case to work for, then naming other games about easy blah blah blah. None of what you even name is a MMO. Starcraft, mobile phone games!?!?! etc are NOT in the same category or even the same principles of gaming. IF anything a starwars MMO should be the one MMO about pvp. Playing a game based in a world where both sides are at war one would think pvp would not be such a far stretch.

Further talking about grinding for things like pets and titles? Honestly that is something casuals tend to like to grind for, and something those who are not casual tend to get along the way as a side effect. I do not care about the player who has a skill far below that of mine. In the case of the big skill gap the gear should be just as big so I can move on to the player who can actually put up a fight. All I see people that *****, ***** for is not to really level the playing field but to give those who lack skill more chance of survival. SO basically say no to those who enjoy and are good at pvp at getting gear that is awesome and yes to supplimenting those who are not that great with good enough gear that they can somehow still feel they are good? Say what you want to refute, but that is what is being said. Funny thing is everyone talks of the super casual etc etc, when the super casual are the ones who tend to move on to a new game at the drop of a hat. This is like saying raid gear for instance in the case of lets say a inquisitor having the top raid gear have 4 more willpower then the group gear its stupid in that regard as well as pvp. The problem is people get rolled by some group of people who are organized, and feel that the gear gap is the reason they were beaten. These same people are the ones wanting gear to not really get that much better as you progress in pvp, because these same people are the ones who go off solo (not even stealth class) and think they should be able to do this and survive. I never ever post, and am not even that hardcore anymore with pvp as I used to be and especially since f2p do not do it as much. However no one ever really gives a good answer as to why its not ok for those who are at what is basically the endgame of pvp to not get the great reward of having awesome gear. No I will not accept such a answer as "well pvp involves real life people on the other end, so having better gear is not alright because they may not be able obtain said gear." it is such a crap thing to say. Big deal you que get rolled fast game over in the end the progression is probably faster then the other way around. It may not be fun to get rolled, but on the same token it is not fun for those who put work into it to have nothing really different then the guy who could not care too much about it except as something extra to do 2-4 matches a day.

Can you name any multi player online games centered on pvp that have over a million players other than WoW (which is pve centric anyway) that use the gear>skill system?

 

I can name plenty that don't.

 

Battlefield, CoD franchise, Halo, League, DOTA, Starcraft, etc...

 

These games keep their players hooked with maps, balance, fun and variety- not gear. Even WoW's pvp is on a sharp decline.

 

I'd be willing to bet outside of WoW- the top pvp community is GW2, and they didn't even do many things right in pvp other than the lack of gear.

 

 

If you don't like pvp for fun- you won't stay long anyway, you'll leave once you get your gear. It's the people who enjoy pvp who will be your long term players. Regardless- there's so many things to grind other than stat bonuses that are proven that people grind for- pets, mounts, titles, cosmetic gear, etc...

 

The idea that gear treadmills make games last longer may have held up five years ago- but right now the evidence is showing that's absolutely not the case.

 

In fact- right now casual games are on the rise, hence why puzzle games and mobile phone games are some of the hottest products right now. Ease of play- you pick up, you play, no hassle involved. BW shot themselves in the foot by making a game to compete with mmos of last decade rather than trying to match current gaming trends.

Because smart phones and tablets have become much more common, yes.

Like pvp has not been destroyed enough. Sorry but having gear with 1% better stats and same otherwise but takes a hell of alot longer to get is not a good enough reward. Really though to those talking about gear in pvp not being the case to work for, then naming other games about easy blah blah blah. None of what you even name is a MMO. Starcraft, mobile phone games!?!?! etc are NOT in the same category or even the same principles of gaming. IF anything a starwars MMO should be the one MMO about pvp. Playing a game based in a world where both sides are at war one would think pvp would not be such a far stretch.

 

Further talking about grinding for things like pets and titles? Honestly that is something casuals tend to like to grind for, and something those who are not casual tend to get along the way as a side effect. I do not care about the player who has a skill far below that of mine. In the case of the big skill gap the gear should be just as big so I can move on to the player who can actually put up a fight. All I see people that *****, ***** for is not to really level the playing field but to give those who lack skill more chance of survival. SO basically say no to those who enjoy and are good at pvp at getting gear that is awesome and yes to supplimenting those who are not that great with good enough gear that they can somehow still feel they are good? Say what you want to refute, but that is what is being said. Funny thing is everyone talks of the super casual etc etc, when the super casual are the ones who tend to move on to a new game at the drop of a hat. This is like saying raid gear for instance in the case of lets say a inquisitor having the top raid gear have 4 more willpower then the group gear its stupid in that regard as well as pvp. The problem is people get rolled by some group of people who are organized, and feel that the gear gap is the reason they were beaten. These same people are the ones wanting gear to not really get that much better as you progress in pvp, because these same people are the ones who go off solo (not even stealth class) and think they should be able to do this and survive. I never ever post, and am not even that hardcore anymore with pvp as I used to be and especially since f2p do not do it as much. However no one ever really gives a good answer as to why its not ok for those who are at what is basically the endgame of pvp to not get the great reward of having awesome gear. No I will not accept such a answer as "well pvp involves real life people on the other end, so having better gear is not alright because they may not be able obtain said gear." it is such a crap thing to say. Big deal you que get rolled fast game over in the end the progression is probably faster then the other way around. It may not be fun to get rolled, but on the same token it is not fun for those who put work into it to have nothing really different then the guy who could not care too much about it except as something extra to do 2-4 matches a day.

Read it all so I can brief it for you and you don't have to read that unparagraphed mess.

*ahem*

Bioware I want to be able to two shot recruits becuase since I play more than them I'm a better person. Also, casuals LOL amirite guys? Also, non-numeric rewards do not interest me because I iz pro.

@Loniel

You're disputing your own points. Skill is not an appreciable factor when one player has recruit gear and the other has.

A two tier stat advantage AND

13 augments of stats.

Read it all so I can brief it for you and you don't have to read that unparagraphed mess.

 

*ahem*

Bioware I want to be able to two shot recruits becuase since I play more than them I'm a better person. Also, casuals LOL amirite guys?

 

@Loniel

You're disputing your own points. Skill is not an appreciable factor when one player has recruit gear and the other has.

WH gears stat advantage AND

13 augments.[/quote

 

Thanks for saving me 5 minutes of my life. I didn't read it, but I can imagine what it said by your clarification .....He wants to keep his GOD mode]

ehhh okay? Expertise wasn't the big issue...

Ehh, yeah; it isn't the entire issue. It matters, but so does having a higher damage weapon barrel/hilt, along with min maxing stats and augmenting. Having equal expertise at least creates a ground floor while still giving people other things that really matter to work on improving.

Honestly; I don't think I would stick around if there wasn't some progression to make. At the same time, the carrot has to be at least somewhat close to my nose for me to chase it. That is unless they start pushing out more PvP content that is unique and very re-playable.

That's not how I understand it, unless I misunderstand your question. You will still want PvP gear - with expertise - for PvP. But the different ranks of PvP gear will all have the same amount of expertise on them. The other stats are what will differ.

 

You still won't want to walk into level 50 pvp with 0 expertise.

Well I understand that it is meant for preventing PvE players from dominating PvP and vice versa (though it does this very loosely).

The problem is expertise doesn't give enough of a return post 1200-1250 mark to justify the remaining portion. This is why players are using PvE armorings in the belt/bracer slot since the damage/damage reduction from expertise they're losing isn't that substantial.

They *COULD* alter the ratios to where neglecting a single expertise stat slot could be detrimental to your setup, but I can only imagine the incoming e-rage from people who shelled out 1 mil+ for those armorings.

I believe it ought to be used to balance PvP mechanics that couldn't be balanced in PvE. E.g. crowd control/etc.

Well I understand that it is meant for preventing PvE players from dominating PvP and vice versa (though it does this very loosely).

 

The problem is expertise doesn't give enough of a return post 1200-1250 mark to justify the remaining portion. This is why players are using PvE armorings in the belt/bracer slot since the damage/damage reduction from expertise they're losing isn't that substantial.

 

They *COULD* alter the ratios to where neglecting a single expertise stat slot could be detrimental to your setup, but I can only imagine the incoming e-rage from people who shelled out 1 mil+ for those armorings.

 

I believe it ought to be used to balance PvP mechanics that couldn't be balanced in PvE. E.g. crowd control/etc.

I'd imagine that they would get rid of diminishing returns on expertise if PvP gear all contains the same, no? Just a thought with no evidence but it would make sense if everyone has an equal amount and expertise is meant to make PvP armor for PvP and PvE armor for PvE that it is in your best interest stay at the maxed cap all will have.

i agree, and this is what drives the PvE progression in just about any MMO. however, PvP is a horse of a different color.

 

PvP should be about horizontal progression. Unlocking new armor appearances, ability to customize armor, new weapon skins, color crystals, titles, vehicles, etc. something that says "yeah ive been PvP for a long time" without saying "MY POWER LEVEL IS OVER 9000 AND YOURS ISNT!!!!"

 

vertical progression in PvP makes the situation way more complicated that it needs to be.

I agree 100%. PvP in this game makes me think I'm in a Dragonball Z universe. I lost interest in that crap pretty quick, and I'll lose interest in this game if the expertise nonsense isn't handled.

I applaud this change and hope that it works as intended. I also hope that the armor stops looking so stupid, but that's another thread...

Ehh, yeah; it isn't the entire issue. It matters, but so does having a higher damage weapon barrel/hilt, along with min maxing stats and augmenting. Having equal expertise at least creates a ground floor while still giving people other things that really matter to work on improving.

 

Honestly; I don't think I would stick around if there wasn't some progression to make. At the same time, the carrot has to be at least somewhat close to my nose for me to chase it. That is unless they start pushing out more PvP content that is unique and very re-playable.

So your saying that all FPS's multiplayer games that have been thriving for years that have not 1 stat improvement to one single player won't survive without a carrot. If anything they need to balance pvp so they are close to FPS's style where no one has the advantage and play pvp over and over just for the sake of fun/competitive pvp. More people would pvp because at anytime/patch or returning players can just jump in and have fun. The idea of facerolling just because your new is a fall idea and the number of subscribers are proving it. ..... No carrot needed..good pvp is good pvp. If it's good we play, if it's bad they leave....right now it's bad and they need a change because the gear grind and facerolling have FAILED.

I applaud this change and hope that it works as intended. I also hope that the armor stops looking so stupid, but that's another thread...

I think there is plenty of room in this thread to complain about the glowing bumblebee suit that is agent WH gear.

Sadly, I don't think making the Expertise static across all tiers will be enough for the complainers and they will complain until everyone is forced to use the same gear. Then of course they will find something else to whine about instead of actually learning to play the game.

Do I want to deal with the whiners or horrible pvp mechanics.....um I'll take the whiners...

Do I want to deal with the whiners or horrible pvp mechanics.....um I'll take the whiners...

What's horrible about the PvP mechanics? Is it just not casual enough for you?

Of course you'll take the whiners over L2P - you are one. Not a big surprise there.

So your saying that all FPS's multiplayer games that have been thriving for years that have not 1 stat improvement to one single player won't survive without a carrot. If anything they need to balance pvp so they are close to FPS's style where no one has the advantage and play pvp over and over just for the sake of fun/competitive pvp. More people would pvp because at anytime/patch or returning players can just jump in and have fun. The idea of facerolling just because your new is a fall idea and the number of subscribers are proving it. ..... No carrot needed..good pvp is good pvp. If it's good we play, if it's bad they leave....right now it's bad and they need a change because the gear grind and facerolling have FAILED.

It's a different kind of game. How many CODs have came out since WoW launched?

MMOs need things to keep them going for years, and the base of that has always been persistent worlds and character progression; whether that be in leveling, builds, and even gear. It is not built for people to just pop in every once in a while to play a game.

FPS games are about twitch action with tons of maps and come in hot, making their money up front. Then if they are successful, they refresh it with a brand new game, with new maps and new things to do.

There are a ton of FPSers out there BTW. Just FYI in case people really want that.

It's a different kind of game. How many CODs have came out since WoW launched?

 

MMOs need things to keep them going for years, and the base of that has always been persistent worlds and character progression; whether that be in leveling, builds, and even gear. It is not built for people to just pop in every once in a while to play a game.

 

FPS games are about twitch action with tons of maps and come in hot, making their money up front. Then if they are successful, they refresh it with a brand new game, with new maps and new things to do.

 

There are a ton of FPSers out there BTW. Just FYI in case people really want that.

I think that's what people want in their MMO's these days...Maybe that is why everyone is leaving the grind style of pvp gameplay? It's never too late for change or something new because I'm telling you," The Grind style isn't working for many mmo's nowadays" and especially this one. lol Don't be in denial.

What's horrible about the PvP mechanics? Is it just not casual enough for you?

 

Of course you'll take the whiners over L2P - you are one. Not a big surprise there.

On a purely mechanical state of things what is expertise for?

Causing a gear gap or for creating a buffer to stop pve gear being the best for pvp? Well, if you want a gear gap you already have mainstat/crit/power/surge/alacrity/accuracy. Creating a power gap with expertise and the other statsis just unnecessary bloat.

So yeah, up until this change I'd say expertise is a poorly implemented mechanic. It doesn't need to be a stat people value above everything else to perform it's function.

What's horrible about the PvP mechanics? Is it just not casual enough for you?

 

Of course you'll take the whiners over L2P - you are one. Not a big surprise there.

Not sure what the intent of your quote was...especially using the L2P garbage, but whatever. Maybe you think the pvp is fine even though BW also think that it's not. lol Expand your vocabulary pass L2P and listen to what Captain said.... Thanks

On a purely mechanical state of things what is expertise for?

 

Causing a gear gap or for creating a buffer to stop pve gear being the best for pvp? Well, if you want a gear gap you already have mainstat/crit/power/surge/alacrity/accuracy. Creating a power gap with expertise and the other statsis just unnecessary bloat.

 

So yeah, up until this change I'd say expertise is a poorly implemented mechanic. It doesn't need to be a stat people value above everything else to perform it's function.

You and I both know that once Expertise is made static, they'll be asking for smaller gaps for other stats as well.

Whiners will never be happy as long as they can lose to a fully geared and augmented WH player with skill and not feel good about it afterwards. Guess what. NO ONE enjoys losing. You're gonna lose eventually. This isn't a bad mechanic.

You and I both know that once Expertise is made static, they'll be asking for smaller gaps for other stats as well.

 

Whiners will never be happy as long as they can lose to a fully geared and augmented WH player with skill and not feel good about it afterwards. Guess what. NO ONE enjoys losing. You're gonna lose eventually. This isn't a bad mechanic.

Um maybe you didn't read my post correctly? That is why I said I would take the whiners over bad pvp...... Who cares for the whining...I don't pay to listen to whining so I can ignore it. I pay for good pvp, I can't ignore bad pvp setup. I think we are on the same side. I just don't care who whines.

guess i got back to my level 49 to pwn noobs. wasted so much time on my augmented WH gear, now some noob will have the same as me with out work....

being sarcastic btw.

If fully up to my own wants I'd say make pvp gear only cosmetic but since this is an mmo my idea is to make pvp gear difference just a few % more. Like say if you max geared you could get 3% better across the board or maybe 4% better in one category by sacrificing your hp for example.

This would give people the sense of progression while not affecting pvp much. It would keep more subs. Sure the people that want a huge gear gap would leave but I truly believe that mmos would do better without these people. Imo, these people are a big reason why mmo pvp isn't nearly as mainstream as it could be. I mean the average person with an average decent life that plays pvp in some sort (likely fps) is not going to stick around long enough getting pugstomped by players massively more geared to fall in love with mmo pvp. That is also why I think premade matching is extremely important.

If fully up to my own wants I'd say make pvp gear only cosmetic but since this is an mmo my idea is to make pvp gear difference just a few % more. Like say if you max geared you could get 3% better across the board or maybe 4% better in one category by sacrificing your hp for example.

 

This would give people the sense of progression while not affecting pvp much. It would keep more subs. Sure the people that want a huge gear gap would leave but I truly believe that mmos would do better without these people. Imo, these people are a big reason why mmo pvp isn't nearly as mainstream as it could be. I mean the average person with an average decent life that plays pvp in some sort (likely fps) is not going to stick around long enough getting pugstomped by players massively more geared to fall in love with mmo pvp. That is also why I think premade matching is extremely important.

Well, that will never happen unless BioWare hires Hugh Fleming himself to design the gear because the current gear is far from being worthy of the grind on appearance alone. Stats and customization drive this game right now, and I don't see that changing without a serious creative overhaul of the armor and items.