Nonsense.

 

P2W occurs whenever a player can circumvent an aspect of the game simply by paying money to do so.

 

Of course it is , circumvention officially is still circumvention.

 

You pay you miss out on grind, that's P2W by its very defination.

 

Incorrect:

"Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

 

Critics of the free-to-play approach are concerned that if players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill. These games are known as "Pay-to-Win" (often abbreviated P2W) games.

 

So far as we know, nothing in the CM is more powerful than anything that can be gotten in game, and some of those items are available both in game and in the CM.

 

BJ

Edited December 11, 2012 by BJWyler

Firstly we have to define our terms. As I see it...

 

Pay to Win: Unless you pay real money, you will never win. It is impossible to beat the content without paying (beyond what you already pay for your subscription). If you do not pay real money (again, beyond your subscription), it is IMPOSSIBLE to complete said content. You will never beat it....ever...unless you pay. There is absolutely NO other way to get the stuff you need without paying.

 

If you're a subscriber, this is already not P2W because you get a monthly allotment of cartel coins. The issue we have here is one of time. Basically, people don't want to grind. They want to beat the content grind-free immediately.

 

Now, i'm at work, so I haven't played the new space stuff. I can't speak to its difficulty, but iv'e already read, "I can do it fine with lower tier stuff" and, "I tried 3 times and can't do it....therefore it's impossible". Amazing the contradiction level in this thread. I'll try it out myself later today and see how I feel about it.

 

We clearly have "PLAY a ton to win eventually" or "PAY so you can win as fast as you can". It's your choice. This space pack is a time sink. Nothing more. It's made for casual people that enjoy the space challenge and are in no rush to beat it all overnight. Bioware is teaching you a lesson in sociology. Who's gonna be the first one that HATES space, but will line up to spend real cash to fly through this new stuff? Who indeed?

Incorrect:

"Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

 

Critics of the free-to-play approach are concerned that if players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill. These games are known as "Pay-to-Win" (often abbreviated P2W)[7] games.

 

So far as we know, nothing in the CM is more powerful than anything that can be gotten in game, and some of those items are available both in game and in the CM.

 

BJ

 

Again incorrect.

 

P2W is anything that allows you to circumvent gameplay (which yes gives some form of an advange - as this doe)

by paying money,

 

This is P2W, you can pretend it's not, but pretending a bear isn't a bear doesn't make it not a bear.

This is why f2p and sub/cash shop games are a virus infecting and destroying this once great genre of gaming. And we are all already infected.

 

Sooooo true!!!! Well stated!

 

If people REALLY hated the model, they wouldn't buy so many 'things' from the cash shop. I certainly don't blame EA for selling crap that's appealing...they're in this short term.

Ya this is BS! Pay2win for sure. Making it easy to get bh and daily Comms with real world money! You should have to work for the new space parts not buy them outright if you are rich irl! It sucks but I'm really just waiting for te next big mmo to come out now. EA and Bioware have made me really upset with the cc market and I'm about done here

Firstly we have to define our terms. As I see it...

 

Pay to Win: Unless you pay real money, you will never win. It is impossible to beat the content without paying (beyond what you already pay for your subscription). If you do not pay real money (again, beyond your subscription), it is IMPOSSIBLE to complete said content. You will never beat it....ever...unless you pay. There is absolutely NO other way to get the stuff you need without paying.

 

 

By that defination there is no game in existance that IS P2W.

I haven't gotten a chance to do the new ones yet on live so I can't confirm.

Right now on live either they are all bugged and don't unlock weekly version, or everyone is initially locked out of them, and will get unlocked on appropriate day. Or they are 'dalies', but avaible only on one day per week. I guess only way to know is to wait.

Yeah... this is pretty lame. I thought all Cartel items were cosmetic.

 

If this is the case, why not just have every Dread Guard item for Cartel packs? Why not make every next raid tier gear available via raid AND via Cartel Packs?

 

Seriously BW... this is total bs. Feel free to keep going down this path and I'll feel free to unsubscribe.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Lostpenguins

 

Again incorrect.

 

P2W is anything that allows you to circumvent gameplay (which yes gives some form of an advange - as this doe)

by paying money,

 

This is P2W, you can pretend it's not, but pretending a bear isn't a bear doesn't make it not a bear.

 

Wait, what are you circumventing here? Are you saying that if you buy the ship upgrades, you don't have to do the space missions? The single player space missions that you don't have to do anyway....??

By that defination there is no game in existance that IS P2W.

 

Depends on the definition. Who sets the definition? I gave you mine. Is mine any better or worse than anyone else?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Vitellius

Wait, what are you circumventing here? Are you saying that if you buy the ship upgrades, you don't have to do the space missions? The single player space missions that you don't have to do anyway....??

You don't have to do anything anywayz.

 

Here's the problem. Say 1.7 comes out with a new raid and new tier set of gear. You can go in there, farm it, and after a couple months completely deck yourself out.

 

OR...

 

You can simply by some CC's and by a whole set off the Cartel Market now!

 

That's the problem. When it's no longer cosmetic you trivialize the gear obtained by raiders. You would destroy the hamster wheel. People would get all of the gear via CC's and then do the Operation once for storyline and to complete all content in the game. Then they would all unsub.

 

Having pride that you did something only goes so far when Joe Schmoe standing next to you has the same rewards and all he had to do was throw enough cash at whoever he needed to, to get what the exact same stuff.

Wait, what are you circumventing here? Are you saying that if you buy the ship upgrades, you don't have to do the space missions? The single player space missions that you don't have to do anyway....??

 

The grind.

 

Depends on the definition. Who sets the definition? I gave you mine. Is mine any better or worse than anyone else?

 

Yes, by an totally incorrect and inplausible defination anything can indeed be anything.

 

Everywhere else this is P2W.

Pay2Win is when the best things are ONLY on the market. This is just another option designed to milk the greedy and impatient "Must have it NOW!" crowd and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

^ This

 

People who don't want to pay real dollars will play the game, and gain the items a bit later. It is exactly the same as the current f2p model. f2p players gain xp slower. Players who use the 'xp booster' stims are paying to gain xp faster.

 

Get over it.

I hate space missions. You can make by ship with big insta-kill pew pew lazors, have an FTL engine bazzillion times faster than light, i will still not pay this crap.

You don't have to do anything anywayz.

 

Here's the problem. Say 1.7 comes out with a new raid and new tier set of gear. You can go in there, farm it, and after a couple months completely deck yourself out.

 

OR...

 

You can simply by some CC's and by a whole set off the Cartel Market now!

 

That's the problem. When it's no longer cosmetic you trivialize the gear obtained by raiders. You would destroy the hamster wheel. People would get all of the gear via CC's and then do the Operation once for storyline and to complete all content in the game. Then they would all unsub.

 

Having pride that you did something only goes so far when Joe Schmoe standing next to you has the same rewards and all he had to do was throw enough cash at whoever he needed to, to get what the exact same stuff.

 

Fair enough, but the problem with your straw man is we aren't talking about raid gear. This is the space mini game. You know...the thing that everyone says nobody does and is a waste of time.

You don't have to do anything anywayz.

 

Here's the problem. Say 1.7 comes out with a new raid and new tier set of gear. You can go in there, farm it, and after a couple months completely deck yourself out.

 

OR...

 

You can simply by some CC's and by a whole set off the Cartel Market now!

 

That's the problem. When it's no longer cosmetic you trivialize the gear obtained by raiders. You would destroy the hamster wheel. People would get all of the gear via CC's and then do the Operation once for storyline and to complete all content in the game. Then they would all unsub.

 

Having pride that you did something only goes so far when Joe Schmoe standing next to you has the same rewards and all he had to do was throw enough cash at whoever he needed to, to get what the exact same stuff.

 

If wiki want a good example of a strawman argument, I will point them at this post, I dont think anyone could do a better job.

If/when we ever see raid/pvp gear for sale in the store, Ill be right beside you.

Fair enough, but the problem with your straw man is we aren't talking about raid gear. This is the space mini game. You know...the thing that everyone says nobody does and is a waste of time.

 

This is already circumventing gameplay.

 

It''s not (yet) doing it in the same way as it might in PvP or in PvE raiding, but it's still exactly the same thing.

 

 

 

It actually makes a lot of sense that they would impliment P2W in the least popular part of the game to see how it goes first.

 

If it makes money, then expect to see more of it in more areas, they did just that in WAR.

 

Again incorrect.

 

P2W is anything that allows you to circumvent gameplay (which yes gives some form of an advange - as this doe)

by paying money,

 

This is P2W, you can pretend it's not, but pretending a bear isn't a bear doesn't make it not a bear.

 

Can you provide official linkies to your definition that mark it as the official definition and not just your interpretation.

 

Here are mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Criticism

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/19/the-daily-grind-how-do-you-define-pay-to-win/

 

BJ

This is already circumventing gameplay.

 

It''s not (yet) doing it in the same way as it might in PvP or in PvE raiding, but it's still exactly the same thing.

 

 

 

It actually makes a lot of sense that they would impliment P2W in the least popular part of the game to see how it goes first.

 

If it makes money, then expect to see more of it in more areas, they did just that in WAR.

 

How about saving your petty whining till that happens?

Fair enough, but the problem with your straw man is we aren't talking about raid gear. This is the space mini game. You know...the thing that everyone says nobody does and is a waste of time.

This mini game rewards you with tokens that increase your gear that you can use to raid. So it's no longer just a little mini game for it's own sake. If you got nothing from it except fleet comms which in turn could only by stuff that either was cosmetic only or improved only your mini game performance, than I would be more understanding.

 

However, this is not the case.

 

I'm concerned not so much about this feature, in of itself. I'm concerned with the slippery slope BW/EA seems to be standing near. It's just a little line in the sand that they want us to accept as okay because it's far away from buying Raid Gear and PvP Gear. However, it's past the line of "purely cosmetic" which is what people like me were okay with. Buying vanity gear is perfectly okay with me. Using CC's to buy anything that is an upgrade to your stats... that's not okay with me. Sure, this is just for your ship, but we've already crossed the line as it's gear that increases your stats in some way, shape, or form.

 

See the problem?

The grind.

 

Yes, by an totally incorrect and inplausible defination anything can indeed be anything.

 

Everywhere else this is P2W.

 

So you mean time played? Which is my original point. I'm arguing it's not simply pay to win, but pay to win "faster" which isn't the same thing. In plausible? Why? Because it is contrary to your opinion. Ok....if you say so. The thing is, if we can't agree on a definition, then we will never have a resolution. We're all just spinning our wheels spouting our opinions.

This is already circumventing gameplay.

 

It''s not (yet) doing it in the same way as it might in PvP or in PvE raiding, but it's still exactly the same thing.

 

 

 

It actually makes a lot of sense that they would impliment P2W in the least popular part of the game to see how it goes first.

 

If it makes money, then expect to see more of it in more areas, they did just that in WAR.

 

Kinda like how they did the f2p model. You know, at first only f2p til lvl 15 to see how it goes, and then it became f2p the way it is now. Kinda funny that people would say that that wouldn't happen back then

Can you provide official linkies to your definition that mark it as the official definition and not just your interpretation.

 

Here are mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Criticism

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/19/the-daily-grind-how-do-you-define-pay-to-win/

 

BJ

 

How are those in any way "offical"? They are just links that mostly don't even mention P2W.

 

Does murder require a UN mandate to be murder? I think not, it is what it is. Do you think the UN have to rule on P2W?

 

P2W is what it is and this is it.

You don't have to do anything anywayz.

 

Here's the problem. Say 1.7 comes out with a new raid and new tier set of gear. You can go in there, farm it, and after a couple months completely deck yourself out.

 

OR...

 

You can simply by some CC's and by a whole set off the Cartel Market now!

 

That's the problem. When it's no longer cosmetic you trivialize the gear obtained by raiders. You would destroy the hamster wheel. People would get all of the gear via CC's and then do the Operation once for storyline and to complete all content in the game. Then they would all unsub.

 

Having pride that you did something only goes so far when Joe Schmoe standing next to you has the same rewards and all he had to do was throw enough cash at whoever he needed to, to get what the exact same stuff.

 

Pride is one thing - that is not P2W. P2W is having a statistical advantage over another player when all else is equal between the two of you simply by buying better gear than the other player can get by playing the game. Since that is not the case with anything in the store up to this point, it is not P2W. Again, it is actually the opposite, because presumably, the player who plays the game to obtain the gear would become more skilled as a result, so they would in actuality have the statistical advantage over the player who simply bought the gear and did not put in the time to "earn" it.

 

How are those in any way "offical"? They are just links that mostly don't even mention P2W.

 

Does murder require a UN mandate to be murder? I think not, it is what it is. Do you think the UN have to rule on P2W?

 

P2W is what it is and this is it.

 

They are as official as can be gotten in this point in time. Keep reading you will find the quotes I used in the previous post. Attempting to deflect the argument with a completely unrelated hyperbolic statement does not strengthen your position.

 

BJ

Edited December 11, 2012 by BJWyler

How about saving your petty whining till that happens?

 

Nope, I'm complaing about it now, because I don't want P2W in the on-the-rail missions either.