It is not pay to win, you are playing against yourself. And no one is affected by it. End of story.

My position exactly.

Again, I am not complaining simply pointing out some nasty hypocrisy.

 

I would like to clarify that I am not calling subscribers hypocrits. I am calling people who deride what they call "pay to win" while at the same time engaging in functionally equivalent behavior through the act of subscribing, hypocrits.

Don't you see by this very statement you ARE in fact calling ALL subscribers hypocrits for subscribing. We are subscribing and in this case "getting to keep the features" that we have had all along. We have ALWAYS since the begining of this game had these features. To continue to keep them and still pay our subscription is NOT hypocrisy. It is the NORM. It is SELFISH and ENTITLED for someone that is a Freeple to claim they should have every feature that a subscriber has or it's NOT FAIR they are PAYING TO WIN. You aren't paying anything. You should feel GRATEFUL that EAware is daft enough to GIVE YOU THE ENTIRE LEVELING GAME (their best stuff) for free. That's right you are getting way MORE for free than you ought. You should be RESTRICTED MORE than you are if you are a freeple.

This is a clear example of "why buy the cow, we are getting the milk for free, but we want two cows now, one isn't enough".

Don't you see by this very statement you ARE in fact calling ALL subscribers hypocrits for subscribing.

Not at all. That cannot be inferred from anything I have said. I have said only that the hypocrits are those who are opposed to this thing they call "pay to win" which as they define it includes paying for conveniences and means of circumvention *if* they also happen to be subscribers.

edit: It might clarify what I am saying if I add that I do not believe that paying for convieninces, or even gear, is "pay to win" as long as cash is not the only means of acquiring those things.

Not at all. That cannot be inferred from anything I have said. I have said only that the hypocrits are those who are opposed to this thing they call "pay to win" which as they define it includes paying for conveniences and means of circumvention *if* they also happen to be subscribers.

 

edit: It might clarify what I am saying if I add that I do not believe that paying for convieninces, or even gear, is "pay to win" as long as cash is not the only means of acquiring those things.

Look I don't think the 3 space packs are P2W , but even if I did it would not make me a hypocrit at all. I subscribe and it has nothing to do with being able to do more than F2P or preferred as i explained earlier. For which you replied with an insulting childish answer. just because a game has a sub , F2P and preferred system doesn't make the subbed player calling something P2W a hypocrit but i guess you already know that and are just having a laugh on the forums. I won't use the "T" word but it sure seems like it. Good day.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

Not at all. That cannot be inferred from anything I have said. I have said only that the hypocrits are those who are opposed to this thing they call "pay to win" which as they define it includes paying for conveniences and means of circumvention *if* they also happen to be subscribers.

In this case it is NOT hypocrisy to want to keep what you have always had and which you are still being charged. Paying a subscription can NEVER be pay to win by definition. Paying to win is getting something that is the same or more powerful than what can be attained in the game via some form of circumventing some rule mechanic. If anything subscribers are playing the game by the rules, as designed and as intended. Getting to continue to play by the rules for the price of a sub is NOT and advantage. Being able to get something in a store that I have to work for, spend time grinding, and killing Bosses for is pay to win, and entitled and in the end will bring a rapid decline to the caliber of players that play a game.

Paying a subscription can NEVER be pay to win by definition.

This is where we will have to agree to disagree, which is cool. I simply think that as they themselves have defined it, the anti-P2W people are engaging in functionally identical behavior when they pay their money to EA. The reason I am saying that, and why I'm posting in this thread at all, is because I hope that their opinions don't influence Bioware to restrict what they put in the cartel market. I think that a wide variety of stuff should be available, with the exception of PVP gear and possibly the highest tier PVE gear.

Paying a subscription can NEVER be pay to win by definition.

Planetside 2 comes to mind.

This is where we will have to agree to disagree, which is cool. I simply think that as they themselves have defined it, the anti-P2W people are engaging in functionally identical behavior when they pay their money to EA. The reason i am saying that, and why I'm posting in this thread at all, is because I hope that their opinions don't influence Bioware to restrict what they put in the cartel market. I think that a wide variety of stuff should be available, with the exception PVP gear and possibly the highest tier PVE gear.

I have already told you the definition of P2win. I have already detailed ad nausem what it means to be a subscriber. Again you are being obtuse. The CC store should NEVER have anything in it that is AS GOOD AS or BETTER than what can be obtained in the game. I swear I wish EA would make special servers for people that think as you do and just give you everything you want at character creation and give each of you "I win" macros that you can fire off at each other and have an rng determin who wins. The rest of us want to earn our battle wounds and our rewards and have fun WORKING for what we achieve. That is why people play games for competition. What you propose makes it so anyone can compete WITHOUT having to put in the effort and gain the skill and knowledge to do so. What YOU are proposing is PAY TO WIN. Yes you ARE QQing by definition.

QQ means to complain. And it yes, you are or at least it seems as much. There is no hypocrisy on the part of subscribers. There can't be. We came first. The game was designed to be played in a subscription model. We are getting NOTHING by EAware going F2P. If anything EAware's approach is that we should feel greatful we get to keep the features we have; the alternative is to be penalized via the F2P model. Think about that a moment. What you are saying is that because you don't WANT TO play for a subscription that we the subscribers should be penalized like you are. That is envy. Not only are you jealous but you don't want others to have the advantages you don't have. But, they AREN'T advantages. They represent the NORM. It is not hypocrisy for subscribers to want to keep the features that they have been paying for ALL ALONG. It is the hights of selfishness and envy to say as you say because you don't want or can't pay a subscription. You are being calumnious to subscribers claiming the same to by steeped in hypocrisy. If anything it is you who are in the end a hypocrit.

Nothing that you have said there is in his post. All he is saying is that by paying a sub you (the royal you) should not equate P2W as something that circumvents a grind because by subscribing you are doing just that. In all definitions of the word that is hypocrisy.

I have already told you the definition of P2win.

Please don't be offended by this, but I do not think you are the authority empowered to define what is and is not P2W. As I have said, I am basing my accusation of hypocrisy on definitions that the anti-P2W bloc have used earlier in this thread.

Planetside 2 comes to mind.

Et tu Vandicus? Honestly shocked here.

Nothing that you have said there is in his post. All he is saying is that by paying a sub you (the royal you) should not equate P2W as something that circumvents a grind because by subscribing you are doing just that. In all definitions of the word that is hypocrisy.

:)

Please don't be offended by this, but I do not think you are the authority empowered to define what is and is not P2W. As I have said, I am basing my accusation of hypocrisy on definitions that the anti-P2W bloc have used earlier in this thread.

No you are most probably performing an action that begins with a T but, I have to stay late at work and I don't mind fencing. Oh and you're wrong.

Et tu Vandicus? Honestly shocked here.

Well I think a sub does qualify for the definition of p2win, but for an MMO I view it as an acceptable level of p2win. Experience boosters could also be considered p2win, but I find them acceptable. I draw the line at end game pve and pvp gear, or any sort of rare pvp boosts or something being in the CM. Seeing as how everyone has a different definition of p2win, I find it easier to simply draw a line for what I will or won't accept in a game, rather than what the definition of a word is.

Nothing that you have said there is in his post. All he is saying is that by paying a sub you (the royal you) should not equate P2W as something that circumvents a grind because by subscribing you are doing just that. In all definitions of the word that is hypocrisy.

Negative. The "grind" is part of the game. That is in the design of ALL MMORPGs. The grind IS the game. Let me repeat. THE GRIND IS THE GAME. The entire construct of a MMORPG is a variable reward SKINNER BOX. Another example of this is a "slot machine". What you are saying is that instead of continuing to put in the coins and pull the lever ( e.g. the grind ) one should just put in one coin, pull the lever once, and win everything. That is not playing the game as intended. That in another word is CHEATING.

If I pay a sub and play the game as intended within the features I am given for paying the price of the subscription, I am not a hypocrit. If you want to begiven everything for NO EFFORT you are being entitled. Remember in a world where everyone is special, noone is. In a world were everything is handed out for free and no work, there is no creativity, or reason to do anything. Mediocrity is the "spice of the day" and the world becomes bland. I want my world and my games to be challenging and painted with bold colors. Not be fed soma.

No you are most probably performing an action that begins with a T but, I have to stay late at work and I don't mind fencing. Oh and you're wrong.

In all seriousness I am not trolling, I just found the argument that some people were making about P2W to be...specious. Its absolutely an opinion, but if you don't present it as an absolute then the game isn't any fun.

My only real concern is that the cash store continue to offer some items of grind circumvention, such as the starship upgrades.

The "grind" is part of the game.

That is probably the nub of our disagreement. As an old guy (37) I remember the days when games were great without any grinding at all, so I have to reject the idea that grind is, or should, be considered part of the game.

Well I think a sub does qualify for the definition of p2win, but for an MMO I view it as an acceptable level of p2win. Experience boosters could also be considered p2win, but I find them acceptable. I draw the line at end game pve and pvp gear, or any sort of rare pvp boosts or something being in the CM. Seeing as how everyone has a different definition of p2win, I find it easier to simply draw a line for what I will or won't accept in a game, rather than what the definition of a word is.

Again how is a subscription paying to win. It's paying for the service as intended. This is a dangerous, dangerous and cancerous "repurposing" of words. Paying a subscription is the intended idea. Playing for free is not and should never be. Games are a luxury. They are not and never should be given away for free. Ever. You and your camp are spinning and twisting the definition of Pay to Win to make subscribers appear as the bad guy. It is your camp that is the bad guy here. You are following Alinsky's Rules for Radicals when you do that. And that is reprehensible.

 

In all seriousness I am not trolling, I just found the argument that some people were making about P2W to be...specious. Its absolutely an opinion, but if you don't present it as an absolute then the game isn't any fun.

 

My only real concern is that the cash store continue to offer some items of grind circumvention, such as the starship upgrades.

Well for some things the only point is the grind, end game pvp gear(which is now largely cosmetic) and end game pve gear. End Game PVE gear always exceeds the gear requirements of any content currently available(and usually by a substantial margin), and pvp gear shows off pvp-skill(not really but this is how a lot of people act about it).

That is probably the nub of our disagreement. As an old guy (37) I remember the days when games were great without any grinding at all, so I have to reject the idea that grind is, or should, be considered part of the game.

I am older than you I have been playing since the MUD days. When has a game NOT been a grind? There is no other construct. ALL games at some point have a grind. Online or Not. At some point there will be a grind point in a game. That has to do more with they psycology of how we percieve things than the games themselves.

 

In all seriousness I am not trolling, I just found the argument that some people were making about P2W to be...specious. Its absolutely an opinion, but if you don't present it as an absolute then the game isn't any fun.

 

My only real concern is that the cash store continue to offer some items of grind circumvention, such as the starship upgrades.

I think this is a slippery slope and EAware is testing the waters. The first pain point that most batted an eye at was the level 10 +41 crystals. This is the next pain point. The next ... who knows but, it will depend on how this fight plays out.

Again how is a subscription paying to win. It's paying for the service as intended. This is a dangerous, dangerous and cancerous "repurposing" of words. Paying a subscription is the intended idea. Playing for free is not and should never be. Games are a luxury. They are not and never should be given away for free. Ever. You and your camp are spinning and twisting the definition of Pay to Win to make subscribers appear as the bad guy. It is your camp that is the bad guy here. You are following Alinsky's Rules for Radicals when you do that. And that is reprehensible.

Hey, I'm not saying its hypocritical to say "XP boosts are acceptable" but "end game space gear is not". I'm saying that the subscription is simply widely viewed as an acceptable form of p2win in gaming in general. Its perfectly fine to set up a certain set of requirements for what a game must/must not do for a person to be a customer.

When has a game NOT been a grind? There is no other construct.

A lot of great classic games (most, actually) did not require you to engage in repetitive tasks in order to continue through the story. Solve puzzels, maybe learn a platforming section, sure. But typically they did not require you to "grind" for some in-game resource in order to continue.

A lot of great classic games (most, actually) did not require you to engage in repetitive tasks in order to continue through the story. Solve puzzels, maybe learn a platforming section, sure. But typically they did not require you to "grind" for some in-game resource in order to continue.

There's virtually no grind in this game for PvE gear and PvP gear grind up to war is also fairly fast(now that top end pvp gear is only very marginally better than war hero its practically the same as having end game pvp gear).

I think this is a slippery slope and EAware is testing the waters. The first pain point that most batted an eye at was the level 10 +41 crystals.

I have to admit I did not know about any crystals with bonuses out of proportion to their level. That should not be.