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Pay2Win Space Missions ???


Dirtyshadow

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That's pretty obvious. I would stop playing MMO's. I don't play MMO's simply because they're MMO's. I play them because I have fun. If they turned into pure P2W then I would stop having fun... hence I'd stop playing them.

But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only? Couldn't any game that has some semblance of a multi-player component have a P2W type of model? That's where I was going with the hypothetical. I would have to think on it more, but I would think that even pure single-player games could also have a form of P2W. DLC for games started out that way to much outcry, and while some players still outright detest DLC in any form, the majority of the industry and player base have come to accept it as normal.

 

As for what Exhaltia said... none of it shows what he really thinks is P2W. Just showed that he didn't think ToR had turned in P2W in any sense of his definition. That's hardly understanding his definition. Regardless, not sure why you needed to put your foot down. Neither of us were getting belligerent in our discussion of this topic.

I thought it did, it seemed fairly clear to me, but that's besides the point. If it felt like I was putting my foot down, or that I implied your posts were belligerent, I apologize. I was simply pointing out the fact that Thelrage pointed out 25-30 pages ago, that debating what defines P2W is pointless and doesn't solve the issue of making SWTOR better for everyone to play.

 

Also, I'm in agreement that BW will do what's best for it's company. In the end, that's making the most profit quarter after quarter. Doesn't mean I want to be a part of that game though... so please don't blow this out to some extremes in politics please. This is a game I pay to play, not the country I live in or where my children will live in.

You are correct, this isn't a political debate, but my anology was to point out your "hard-line" stance as it was phrased - "there is no middle ground." I believe there can always be a middle ground, be it in real life or in a game. It's just a matter of people being open-minded enough to accept it and help find it. Certainly that does not mean everyone may be please with everything, but it certainly means we can find a happy medium. If we couldn't we, as a society, could not have gotten out of the stone age.

 

BJ

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But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only? Couldn't any game that has some semblance of a multi-player component have a P2W type of model? That's where I was going with the hypothetical. I would have to think on it more, but I would think that even pure single-player games could also have a form of P2W. DLC for games started out that way to much outcry, and while some players still outright detest DLC in any form, the majority of the industry and player base have come to accept it as normal.
P2W for single-player games doesn't bother me because it's my choice. But I've seen people who are willing to throw large amounts of cash at games, and that's their choice... so long as it doesn't affect me.

 

I thought it did, it seemed fairly clear to me, but that's besides the point. If it felt like I was putting my foot down, or that I implied your posts were belligerent, I apologize. I was simply pointing out the fact that Thelrage pointed out 25-30 pages ago, that debating what defines P2W is pointless and doesn't solve the issue of making SWTOR better for everyone to play.
This is very true. It sort of is pointless, but I guess I felt I needed to respond to a guy who said, "No, this isn't an issue because, IMO, it's not P2W." If he had said, "I have no problems with this model as I don't believe it follows my definition of P2W," then that would be a different story. But he came off as saying that the complaints were pointless based solely on his own opinion.

 

You are correct, this isn't a political debate, but my anology was to point out your "hard-line" stance as it was phrased - "there is no middle ground." I believe there can always be a middle ground, be it in real life or in a game. It's just a matter of people being open-minded enough to accept it and help find it. Certainly that does not mean everyone may be please with everything, but it certainly means we can find a happy medium. If we couldn't we, as a society, could not have gotten out of the stone age.
And I disagree. I don't care to play or pay for a game that does something that I feel is truly breaking the integrity of progression in this game. It's sort of like Botting was in D2. It feels great to know that you earn your own windforce. The game lost it's flavor for me, when my buddy showed me his 6 Windforces because he was using a pindlebot... at least it's multi-player favor. Playing with people around you who are blowing up the mobs because they're uber-stacked isn't fun... it's even less fun when you know that the people didn't make any sort of effort to obtain that gear.
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Your point is flawed... at best.

 

First off... the premise clearly states "Which means they get gear for PvE faster than someone who doesn't."

 

Does the person who bought their Space 7 Upgrades get gear faster? Yes. You clearly pointed it out. Thus, the statement in quotes holds true. It doesn't mater if it helps in small way or a big way. P2W isn't defined by how much "winning" you get from paying. It's defined that there is any "winning" to be had from paying. And that holds true.

 

Once again, most people here aren't upset with the ship upgrades, in of themselves. Most People are upset because a line was clearly crossed that went from "no end game gear available on the Cartel Market" to "some end game gear available on the Cartel Market". Doesn't matter if it was one item, or a couple... the line was crossed. The fact that BW seems to think, "Hey, no big deal" worries many of us that they'll just keep pushing the line. Those people, like me, are just letting BW know, if they want to keep doing this they'll soon see that they're on their way to pushing the remaining bulk of their leftover subs out the door. It's not there yet, but they definitely opened the door.

 

This. This is why I canceled my sub. I want them to know that they crossed the line, and that they had better not keep blundering forward, or myself and many others are gone.

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But is P2W exclusive to MMOs only?

 

There's no need to deal in hypotheticals. My brother was playing a Stargunner clone on his tablet a couple of weeks ago. For those not familiar, it's a sidescrolling space shooter with a lot of customization regarding what you can put on your ship.

 

For a dollar, you can acquire as much in-game currency as you would be able to make playing the game through a couple of times over. It's enough to buy all the best stuff for your ship to utterly smash the first level. Single player, on a tablet, with simplistic gameplay. It has Pay to Win.

 

It's just that nobody cares because it's a silly tablet game, not a would-be AAA MMORPG.

Edited by Guancyto
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Why is time more acceptable than money?

 

The barrier should be difficulty, skill, ability, whatever you want to call it. Whether you life investment comes from time or money should be irrelevant, especially in PvE content, which has no impact on anyone outside of yourself.

 

MMORPGs are an equal playing field.

 

Paying cash for and advantage is like being able to buy a 5 goal lead in a football match.

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They included schematics for cybertech crafters for 2 of the pieces - making those same pieces available for CC is absolutely P2W. This is exactly what is wrong with P2W - because it undermines the incentive to actually play the game. And if they keep this up, why would anyone ever pay a sub to play it?
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Seems that the announcement of Makeb has overshadowed this discussion. There wasn't really anything else left to say I suppose.

 

Not even an attempt to fix this mess in the patch today - I would think altering required mats on schematics and lowering the comm costs to balance against the cost of CC would be pretty simple - if they cared to do it.

 

It's no longer about being "nickle & dimed", now it's about being "$10- $20'd to death". Inflation is to blame I suppose.

 

It's over now. Game over.

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I don't consider it pay to win- because I haven't bought a single cartel coin, and managed to get a full set of space upgrades from the store.

 

Even if I hadn't saved up the bonus coins- it would take, what, two months to save up the coins?

 

Or- I could just buy them- do a week of dailies and you can pretty much get everything off the GTN.

 

 

Now- the one thing I could see complaining about is that it is indeed exorbitantly expensive to buy several of the upgrades with fleet/daily commendations- the daily comm ones could be reduced by maybe 25%, and the fleet by 50%- or, add in fleet comm recipes for every piece.

 

I'm glad the power converter at least is cheap to just buy with credits- since really that's the only necessary one to get through these missions (though I'd consider the missile upgrade almost a must too).

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Seems that the announcement of Makeb has overshadowed this discussion. There wasn't really anything else left to say I suppose.

 

Not even an attempt to fix this mess in the patch today - I would think altering required mats on schematics and lowering the comm costs to balance against the cost of CC would be pretty simple - if they cared to do it.

 

It's no longer about being "nickle & dimed", now it's about being "$10- $20'd to death". Inflation is to blame I suppose.

 

It's over now. Game over.

 

I suspect their "announcement" was just a pacifiying measure to try and get people to forget about it, if they were genuinely concerned about it they've have fixed it already. :(

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What is your definition of P2W then?

Does buying Ship Grade 7 parts with real life money satisfy the criteria? Yes. It doesn't matter how much end-game gear isn't available on the Cartel Market. The fact exists that there's some. Therefore, it's P2W.

 

This is the heart of the debate. IMO this doesn't bother me, and is not P2W. Space missions are a side part of the game. There is no competition in it against other players. I am not competing for groups, against other players or even for time. Therefore there is no "Win," and cannot be P2W. It's just some off time playing with a distraction.

 

Have I used Cartel coins for it? No. Will I? No. Do I care if someone else does, and will it effect me in the slightest bit? No.

 

Let's not forget that the company producing this game does have to make money. I think it's great if people put in their RL money to buy some POS ship up-grades that have no effect whatsoever on my game play as PvEer, or PvPer.

 

Summarily, if the definition of P2W is any "gear" then I will except your definition of P2W, but I will rebut your definition of gear. Since it does not equip to any class, or any companion, or any multi-player environment then it is not gear, and might as well be cosmetic items.

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P2W for single-player games doesn't bother me because it's my choice. But I've seen people who are willing to throw large amounts of cash at games, and that's their choice... so long as it doesn't affect me.

Fair enough. I suppose this is why many people don't see the ship upgrades as P2W as it is a single-player component to the game, and despite the fact that BH comms are provided as rewards, the grind to get them via space missions is no where in the ball park of doing it "normally."

 

This is very true. It sort of is pointless, but I guess I felt I needed to respond to a guy who said, "No, this isn't an issue because, IMO, it's not P2W." If he had said, "I have no problems with this model as I don't believe it follows my definition of P2W," then that would be a different story. But he came off as saying that the complaints were pointless based solely on his own opinion.

I can understand that. Same reason I fought for many, many pages beforehand as well against those doing the same thing for the P2W side.

 

And I disagree. I don't care to play or pay for a game that does something that I feel is truly breaking the integrity of progression in this game. It's sort of like Botting was in D2. It feels great to know that you earn your own windforce. The game lost it's flavor for me, when my buddy showed me his 6 Windforces because he was using a pindlebot... at least it's multi-player favor. Playing with people around you who are blowing up the mobs because they're uber-stacked isn't fun... it's even less fun when you know that the people didn't make any sort of effort to obtain that gear.

 

And that's probably the crux of the argument right there. We cannot fully reconcile two different types of playstyles that are diametrically opposed to one another, but can only try to find the common ground that will satisfy the majority of those in both camps. I look at it this way - no matter what games I have played, am playing, and will play, there are elements I like, elements I dislike, and elements I both love and hate. In the end, if a game can offer me enough of the likes and loves that is compelling me to play, than the dislikes and hates don't seem as bad and can be overlooked for the most part. If it can't, then I accept that fact and move on to the next. Fortunately, those I have had to move on from are very few and far between.

 

BJ

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It may be silly to you, but that doesn't validate your point whatsoever. The point is that many people feel it cheapens the game in some way when you allow users to buy end game gear. That's why people make rules such as "maximum bets" in poker and/or not allowing people to rebuy... if they didn't have this then the guy with tons of cash could keep throwing money around to be "big stack" and bully his way to victory.

 

It is not "silly to me", its just plain silly. I've already validated my point. I've already demonstrated it with the math. It grants at minute advantage not even worth worrying about. I will demonstrate further if it will help you to understand.

 

Assuming that we both grind all available sources for BH comes, you grind for the ship parts and I buy them. You will be able to obtain sufficient ship parts to start grinding the space missions in 2 weeks. Considering that my advantage is approximately 14 coms per week, this entire hysterical thread is about an advantage of 28 coms that I could earn in excess of what you can earn by just grinding. It also negates the fact that I have to grind level 7 missions (and therefore "work" for the addition coms).

 

Even if you did not grind the space coms for the gear, did not grind the cash for the ship upgrades, my total advantage would be approximately 42 coms., and only for a half of a week.

 

That, in no way, especially since we are speaking of a single player aspect of the game, is play to win. If people had just looked at the situation, the math, rather then running around like their hair is on fire they would see how minute this issue is. Much bigger issues to deal with in this game.

 

I think people who are already quitting because of this is a bit extreme. But I will also not play in a game where end-game PvE Operation gear and/or end-game PvP gear can be bought with a credit card. "Progression" in this game is already a bit weak... but add in the ability to buy all end-game gear and "progression" means nothing.

 

See above. You are not in that game.....not yet at least.

 

make you sound pretentious and insulting. If you want to really have an adult discussion, it's best to leave the immature, passive-aggressive remarks back at the kiddie table. Thanks.

 

Don't act that way and you won't get called on it. ;p

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It is not "silly to me", its just plain silly. I've already validated my point. I've already demonstrated it with the math. It grants at minute advantage not even worth worrying about. I will demonstrate further if it will help you to understand.

 

Assuming that we both grind all available sources for BH comes, you grind for the ship parts and I buy them. You will be able to obtain sufficient ship parts to start grinding the space missions in 2 weeks. Considering that my advantage is approximately 14 coms per week, this entire hysterical thread is about an advantage of 28 coms that I could earn in excess of what you can earn by just grinding. It also negates the fact that I have to grind level 7 missions (and therefore "work" for the addition coms).

 

Even if you did not grind the space coms for the gear, did not grind the cash for the ship upgrades, my total advantage would be approximately 42 coms., and only for a half of a week.

 

That, in no way, especially since we are speaking of a single player aspect of the game, is play to win. If people had just looked at the situation, the math, rather then running around like their hair is on fire they would see how minute this issue is. Much bigger issues to deal with in this game.

 

 

 

See above. You are not in that game.....not yet at least.

 

 

 

Don't act that way and you won't get called on it. ;p

 

P2W is P2W. :csw_yoda:

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And I disagree. I don't care to play or pay for a game that does something that I feel is truly breaking the integrity of progression in this game. It's sort of like Botting was in D2. It feels great to know that you earn your own windforce. The game lost it's flavor for me, when my buddy showed me his 6 Windforces because he was using a pindlebot... at least it's multi-player favor. Playing with people around you who are blowing up the mobs because they're uber-stacked isn't fun... it's even less fun when you know that the people didn't make any sort of effort to obtain that gear.

 

This is not D2 and there is no crisis.

 

Read above. It is breaking nothing. It will have no bearing on "the integrity of the game" whatsoever. It is minute and provides no advantage of note.

 

People have just gone off the deep end on this without ever really investigating and analyzing what took me about ten minutes to prove out.

 

If someone can contest the math, if someone can say, "hey Black, you forget x and it will skew your results, then I would change my conclusion, but as of right now, its all negligible...especially since the missions are pretty much broken, no re-spawning as they should be. ;p

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Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

 

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

 

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this response did nothing but make me more concerned.

 

It was said that there would be no pay-to-win items on the Cartel Market, that it would be cosmetic only. It's starting to look a little like Animal Farm with the pigs slowly changing the writing on the wall.

 

I'm not really fussed about the ship parts since it's essentially a mini game with no competition from other players, but it's still a bad move because it trivializes both play time and crafters' efforts.

 

But what really concerns me is this quote:

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other."

 

No, I don't want to feel that both the market and earning in game are viable options. Cartel Market should not be an option for earning end-game gear of any kind. End of story. Don't even think about it, unless you really do want to drive away all your loyal players (what's left).

Edited by chuixupu
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*sigh*

 

I give up. LOL

 

But you still do t get it. Your entire threads of explanation and math about the insignificant extra BH comms are great but pointless.

 

No one cares about getting BH comms easier. The real problem is the increased ease to which fleet comms can be farmed for Dread Guard crafting mats that are very difficult to come by. If anything the increase in BH comms only gets someone half way to an extra BH piece that when REd is just a guarantee of 1 Stab without criting whereas the crafting boxes are a higher guaranteed drop.

 

The bottom line is that the Cartel Market is supposed to be for non stats based character customization and access to in game content. Anything that has stats on it that is purchased gives those that can spend real currency an advantage over anyone who cannot. They screwed subscribers, they screwed crafters, and they screwed the player base and not because of an in game mechanics issue or game play decision but in order to make some more quick cash. This has EA written all over it.

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But you still do t get it. Your entire threads of explanation and math about the insignificant extra BH comms are great but pointless.

 

No one cares about getting BH comms easier. The real problem is the increased ease to which fleet comms can be farmed for Dread Guard crafting mats that are very difficult to come by. If anything the increase in BH comms only gets someone half way to an extra BH piece that when REd is just a guarantee of 1 Stab without criting whereas the crafting boxes are a higher guaranteed drop.

 

The person I was answering did.

 

....and ease? Have you tried the new missions? They are only doable once a week? You can earn Fleet coms much faster, much easier, with less time by just doing all the older missions. Takes about an hour to earn 100 fleet coms a day. You can only earn about 140 a week doing the heroic missions. It is still minute, and can be easily caught up in a day or two.

 

The bottom line is that the Cartel Market is supposed to be for non stats based character customization and access to in game content. Anything that has stats on it that is purchased gives those that can spend real currency an advantage over anyone who cannot. They screwed subscribers, they screwed crafters, and they screwed the player base and not because of an in game mechanics issue or game play decision but in order to make some more quick cash. This has EA written all over it.

 

I am a subscriber, and this is not "what the cartel market is suppose to be". As I said in my first post in this thread, it is mind projection fallacy, one assuming that their personal belief is law.

 

As a subscriber, this does not "screw" me, it helps me. Until this time I was at a disadvantage to those that had tons of time to play the game and do that mindless grinding, so from a certain perspective, I could make a blanket statement across the board arguing that this helps subscribers.

 

Point is, you have the time, not the money. I have the money, not the time. This provides for us both to enjoy the game as we see fit and the differences are minute enough to not really matter. There are far more interesting ways in which they are "breaking the game" then this. This is nothing.

Edited by Blackardin
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I'm sorry, but this response did nothing but make me more concerned.

 

It was said that there would be no pay-to-win items on the Cartel Market, that it would be cosmetic only. It's starting to look a little like Animal Farm with the pigs slowly changing the writing on the wall.

 

I'm not really fussed about the ship parts since it's essentially a mini game with no competition from other players, but it's still a bad move because it trivializes both play time and crafters' efforts.

 

But what really concerns me is this quote:

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other."

 

No, I don't want to feel that both the market and earning in game are viable options. Cartel Market should not be an option for earning end-game gear of any kind. End of story. Don't even think about it, unless you really do want to drive away all your loyal players (what's left).

 

This is the real issue at hand - although it has been buried because certain people keep arguing about the semantics surrounding the term "P2W".

 

Glad someone else caught that anyway. ;)

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....and ease? Have you tried the new missions? They are only doable once a week? You can earn Fleet coms much faster, much easier, with less time by just doing all the older missions. Takes about an hour to earn 100 fleet coms a day. You can only earn about 140 a week doing the heroic missions. It is still minute, and can be easily caught up in a day or two.

 

The equipment works for any mission. You can faceroll Operation Impossible Sector now which awards 20 comms a day. You're focusing on shrubs in a forrest.

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This is the real issue at hand - although it has been buried because certain people keep arguing about the semantics surrounding the term "P2W".

 

Glad someone else caught that anyway. ;)

 

Right - what's done is done, but where it goes from here is what we need to hear a concrete answer for.

 

Where will they draw the line?

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I was trying to read through this whole thread before posting but I could see it gowing faster then I could read and most of the comments were getting redundant ant way. SO if I missed something signifigant well I'm sorry.

 

About all rhe Free ro play vs Pay to win atguements. And the cost of buying aspects of the game a la corte or piece meal as it were...

 

You know tis is a business right? Bioware and Electonic Arts and Lucas didn't put this game together to provide a charity for Star Wars fans. They did it to make money. The point of Free to play as far as I understand it is to ptovide people an opportunity a chance to play without making a financial comitment. The idea being that if they like what they see they might actually purchase a subscription. So far from I've seen people aren't liking what they've seen and there in lies the problem. I have been a sucscriber from the begining I had enough Fleet Comms and all to buy all the items in question when they were released. I also had all the grade 6 upgrades. I looked at the difference and with a few exceptions the upgrades were questionable. Yes the shields and the amor is a signifigant boost but everything else is meh.

 

Now if you've tried the new space missions you'll see the fundamentla flaw of the developers. They've designed things to annoy the customer base. I'm gong to make a more detailed post elsewhere directed to the people involved in making the game. But ive seen it go from pages of srevers to a handful. They're trying to make back there costs some how and I'm not going to fault them for that. If you're a subsciber and you aquanered all your CC in the first week and now you can't buy the ship upgrades well that was your choice. As I said I could have bought them with in game currency I could have bought them with my free coins. As it turns out I found someone selling them on the GTN for 30K a piece and that was too good too pass up. Even my cybertech couldn't make them fro that price and I bought the scems just in case a market ever opens up. Yeah I know not likely.

 

But my question is for all those people crying about what free to play does get you and I want to know what do you want for nothing? The comapny still needs a staff. They need to pay to maintain there equipment and overhead. They *need* to make money some where or they will fold and there will be no game what so ever.

 

Honestly I'll agree with people who said they need to keep their current subscribers happy because compared to launch there are so few of us left.

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