For the most part, I think this thread is a bunch of whining that would put 8 yr olds to shame. I'm even OK with the troll comment. the guys was being rude, after all. I find it pretty hypocritical that it's OK for a forum poster to be rude, but a casual Troll comment is unacceptable. He really was being a troll.

I'm even OK with the changes....The only thing that really puzzles me is the reset. I could CARE LESS if my merc got the reset. But it is weird that the shadow/assassin got one, and the merc didn't. just weird. but the rest of the thread...

..yeah....whine some more plx. I can get behind the reset thing...if it wasn't so cheap to do it already. but it is confusing...I had to respec my shadow....into the same skills....that didn't change...

I know that as an individual, it's easy to rationalize this line of thinking, but understand that we cannot make everyone happy.

 

If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did not receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of "neglecting" that class (just like in this thread!). If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of admitting the spec got "gutted," to use your words. And why wouldn't players think that - we just handed them free tickets to go elsewhere, right?

 

The only fair, honest, and logical way to give free respecs is to base them on technical necessity.

 

 

Or, Commando skill points weren't refunded for the reasons I've already given and elaborated on.

 

Also, devs get standard-issue troll resistance when they join the biz, just FYI.

Wow... thanks for making my decision to unsub that much easier. To be honest, I think enough people are unsubbing already, no need to make snide comments towards the already frustrated player base such as this to kill the game any faster.

I know that as an individual, it's easy to rationalize this line of thinking, but understand that we cannot make everyone happy.

You could give everyone a free respec, you know. That would probably be easier even than choosing who gets and who does not get.

Calling RuQu a troll...

This company needs to have a better look at who they hire.

Out of all the posts I've read on the forum today, and I've read a fair few... this is by far the most petty.

 

The reason given makes perfect sense, classes got talent respecs so that you could LOG ONTO YOUR CHARACTER, they couldn't simply set the cost to 0 and let you toggle a respec as you'd have points in a skill you couldn't possibly get, talents were moved to other trees and re-designed.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you've respec'd 0-1 time in the week leading up to 1.2, a cost of 0 credits or less then 2k, that's terrible.

 

After reading the OPs post and subsequent posts I wonder why you've not un-subbed yet, you don't seem to get any enjoyment out of the game, pre or post patch.

 

So much BW bashing, if it's this bad go play AoC.

You've read the subsequent posts and yet you don't think the dev response is childish or petty? Sure it's a simple quality of life thing, but considering a class which saw no structural change got a free respec, the logic doesn't hold up. Why exactly do you expect Combat Medics to endure being under the developer's thumb?

More importantly, will you remember this post when it's you on the chopping block and not someone else?

I hope so, because I've yet to see anyone endure as much abuse as RuQu and still try to be polite and reasoned in a dialogue to improve the game not only for himself, but for the community at large, and yet he's LITERALLY treated dismissively, like his words were spoken by an eight year old that couldn't possibly have any idea what he's talking about. To say I am not optimistic about your chances of being that cool would be an understatement.

But most of all: Why do you care? This is a line of communication between aggrieved players and an unresponsive development team. Why do you feel obligated to defend BioWare? Clearly, they are delivering a game experience you enjoy. How would us getting a deserved respec so we can adapt to changes in how our class operates at a fundamental level (especially when classes who saw no changes got one) change your fun level at all? How is yelling at us any less petty than us demanding so much as a SCRAP of worthwhile developer attention?

This, to put it nicely, a kind of self-centred suggestion. That said, it's an easy conclusion to come to when you're the well-informed, knowledge-gathering, systems-minded forum-going type of player. But, believe it or not, that's the minority of any gaming audience. I know it's hard to believe when you look around and all you see is similar knowledge-gathering and knowledge-sharing forum-goers, but that's still the minority.

 

Most players have their accessibility and understanding of the game damaged when they get a free respec. For most players, this is a jarring and unwelcome experience. We don't want to have to give out respecs at all, which is why it is only limited to when it's technically essential to making your character not break. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but it's still the answer.

 

The "you get a free respec" system is automated. It happens when skill tree structure changes. We don't do it by hand. If Shadows got a free respec, then there's a bug in the system and we'll investigate. Thanks for pointing that out.

As before, there is solid reasoning here. I, personally, don't like getting my talents refunded and it was a minor annoyance on my Shadow which had no real changes, especially since respeccing wipes and refills skill-given abilities from your bars.

I know I probably sound like a broken record (a broken what? It's like a big DVD...they repeat themsel...you know what nevermind), when I say this, but it is meant with all the best intentions: you guys (Bioware) really need to improve your communication, in both directions, with players.

If the system is automated, I would have lead with that and said something like a combination of those two posts of yours that I've mashed together: "We try to avoid respecs as they are jarring, etc. We have an automated system in place that only resets skills if they are technically necessary. If Shadows got a skill reset, that is a bug and we will look into it."

Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't trying to be mean. I answered RuQu's real questions and had some fun with his "not real" question:

 

Maybe "/facepalm" would have been more appropriate?

/facepalm would have been a perfectly appropriate response to my sarcasm. It would have amused me at least.

I think, again, the problem is related to communication. I know you don't have many posts (60ish), but that says nothing about how often you personally read and don't speak. If you don't know, the healer community and the Commando/Merc healers in particular feel a bit persecuted by this last patch. When it looks like there was an arbitrary decision to not give a respec to such a nerfed class while giving one to Shadows, it looks like the class as a whole is being trolled by the Developers. Your first response would have been perfectly fine in a vacuum, but with the current feelings of the Community to have someone with a record of posting for the benefit of that community (namely me) called a troll feels like an attack on the Healer Community as a whole, which is why you saw the posts replying to what was otherwise a minor joke. In light of the current atmosphere my sarcasm, while slightly rude, was seen as justifiable exasperation on the part of a volunteer spokesman, and your joke, while lighthearted and inoffensive in isolation, was seen as dismissive of the frustration that my sarcasm expressed when taken in context.

I appreciate that you are taking the time to actually respond to the responses to your comments in this thread. I hope that this silliness (over something as small as free respecs which are free weekly anyway and which is apparently an automated system) will help drive home to you that importance of good communication with the player community. Hopefully this thread can serve a larger purpose, and be used to convince the Powers That Be that the Community Relations Department needs a larger staff and that keeping the players in ignorance is not a path to happy players.

This, to put it nicely, a kind of self-centred suggestion. That said, it's an easy conclusion to come to when you're the well-informed, knowledge-gathering, systems-minded forum-going type of player. But, believe it or not, that's the minority of any gaming audience. I know it's hard to believe when you look around and all you see is similar knowledge-gathering and knowledge-sharing forum-goers, but that's still the minority.

 

Most players have their accessibility and understanding of the game damaged when they get a free respec. For most players, this is a jarring and unwelcome experience. We don't want to have to give out respecs at all, which is why it is only limited to when it's technically essential to making your character not break. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but it's still the answer.

Most people here won't believe it, but having a few relatives and RL friends who play, it is indeed jarring for them and they wonder what happened/why, when they're given a forced respec in MMO's. You're spot-on with this post.

Most people here won't believe it, but having a few relatives and RL friends who play, it is indeed jarring for them and they wonder what happened/why, when they're given a forced respec in MMO's. You're spot-on with this post.

I know exactly what you mean.

Also, devs get standard-issue troll resistance when they join the biz, just FYI.

You'll also need standard issue overtime, because stability in this game is gone to the dogs. I doubt anyone is happy with where Commando/Mercs are at that plays one. And to add injury to insult, the classes that you actually said needed to be toned down(I'm looking at you pyro/assault PT/vanguards) really weren't bothered at all...

This, to put it nicely, a kind of self-centred suggestion. That said, it's an easy conclusion to come to when you're the well-informed, knowledge-gathering, systems-minded forum-going type of player. But, believe it or not, that's the minority of any gaming audience. I know it's hard to believe when you look around and all you see is similar knowledge-gathering and knowledge-sharing forum-goers, but that's still the minority.

 

Most players have their accessibility and understanding of the game damaged when they get a free respec. For most players, this is a jarring and unwelcome experience. We don't want to have to give out respecs at all, which is why it is only limited to when it's technically essential to making your character not break. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but it's still the answer.

I agree that giving everyone a free respec when not every classes skill trees have been affected would be a bad idea. However, the Combat Medic skill tree was severely impacted by the patch PERIOD. I dare anyone on the dev team to come up with a comprehensive, in-depth defense of why these major changes did not warrant a free re-spec. Patch 1.2 also severely impacted the Gunnery skill tree. Major changes to 2 skill trees in 1 class and no re-spec? FAIL, just plain fail.

I consider the lack of re-spec and the lack of respect from the dev team to be apalling. This isn't the answer we want to hear. That's probably why you're not a company we want to keep paying a subscription to.

This whole reply would carry more weight if City of Heroes hadn't figured out a way to have your cake and eat it too...roughly seven or so years ago. When someone would potentially benefit from a respec due to changes in the game systems, but not require one automatically, they would be credited a free respec, which could then be triggered by a simple /command (/respec, in this case). Those who require respecs to log in, get cleared automatically. Those who may feel they need to respec due to changes can do so. Those who do not feel they need to respec due to changes can opt not to do so. Those devs who are currently stuck between a rock and a hard place dealing with community outrage no longer need to do so.

Literally everybody wins.

Wow, can I add "the attitude of the dev in this thread" to the reasons I gave in my unsub survey? I mean, free respecs are not exactly serious business, but come on. These are your responses on the forums while the game appears to be hemorrhaging players?

I feel vindicated, thanks!

Wow, can I add "the attitude of the dev in this thread" to the reasons I gave in my unsub survey? I mean, free respecs are not exactly serious business, but come on. These are your responses on the forums while the game appears to be hemorrhaging players?

 

I feel vindicated, thanks!

The hell did you expect? They keep saying that everything's fine and that they're happy with the current state of the game. I don't know about you, but I am a bit of a perfectionist and if it was my creation I'd be ashamed to say such things.

And I could put up with bugs but stupid development decisions? No... Not so many. And my favourite and only class I enjoyed was completely destroyed in my eyes. I can't have any fun on it.

OH, and we SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN A FREE RE-SPEC, purely because we are absolutely useless as healers now. But then again I had to see it with my own eyes first so I'd spec healer anyway... I'd just re-spec right after. So I guess we'd have to have 2 free re-specs to make us happy.

This thread is amazing...and not in a good way in spite of the fact that I truly respect several of the posters. The simple fact is that while I will be the first to complain about many aspects of the nerfing of my class, not getting a free respec didn't make the list. Not only did the changes not break the tree in spite of making us all re-evaluate our choices and possibly want to respec, but its free once a week and even respecing multiple times costs peanuts compared to say buying a single Reflex stim which costs 30k credits on my GTN. Tilt at windmills much?

The only thing I find more absurd than complaining about this in the first place is the fact that it drew a Bioware response.

Of all the questions asked about what your "metrics" were showing that caused you to believe we needed nerfs and of all the reasonable questions asked about why of all things you chose to use our resource efficiency and signature skill to effect the changes, you choose answer one about not getting a free respec?

One of the biggest reasons people are outraged about the lack of a free respect is because of the frustration resulting from a complete blindside nerf that we received and the complete lack of any real explanation as to why it was needed and why it was implemented the way it was. "Healers were too good" does not really answer the questions that IMO still deserve to be answered. Yet instead of addressing these issues, you respond to this one?

RuQu could not have said it better:

...you guys (Bioware) really need to improve your communication, in both directions, with players... Hopefully this thread can serve a larger purpose, and be used to convince the Powers That Be that the Community Relations Department needs a larger staff and that keeping the players in ignorance is not a path to happy players.

I agree that giving everyone a free respec when not every classes skill trees have been affected would be a bad idea. However, the Combat Medic skill tree was severely impacted by the patch PERIOD. I dare anyone on the dev team to come up with a comprehensive, in-depth defense of why these major changes did not warrant a free re-spec. Patch 1.2 also severely impacted the Gunnery skill tree. Major changes to 2 skill trees in 1 class and no re-spec? FAIL, just plain fail.

 

I consider the lack of re-spec and the lack of respect from the dev team to be apalling. This isn't the answer we want to hear. That's probably why you're not a company we want to keep paying a subscription to.

The changes to Gunnery I could see not needing a respec because the only real changes to talent value were to talents that, if you took before, you'd still take again; there simply isn't anything noticeably better to take.

Combat Medics though... They absolutely butchered talents. 3% SITUATIONAL healing for TWO TALENT POINTS? How could they possibly think that people wouldn't want to immediately swap their talent points around? The only worse talent point cost is the hilarious 10+ tactics vanguards spend on their underwhelming HiB.

I know that as an individual, it's easy to rationalize this line of thinking, but understand that we cannot make everyone happy.

 

If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did not receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of "neglecting" that class (just like in this thread!). If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of admitting the spec got "gutted," to use your words. And why wouldn't players think that - we just handed them free tickets to go elsewhere, right?

 

The only fair, honest, and logical way to give free respecs is to base them on technical necessity.

 

 

Or, Commando skill points weren't refunded for the reasons I've already given and elaborated on.

 

Also, devs get standard-issue troll resistance when they join the biz, just FYI.

What a horribly off-putting and arrogant post...

For the record, this is the first time I've ever posted in these forums but judging from the callous attitude you've displayed, I'm sure my response and departure from this game will be well met with "Don't let the door hit your *** on the way out! We've got a million more subs anyway!".

I have been playing MMOs for almost 15 years and NEVER have I felt compelled to leave a game after only 4 months of playing (especially one I enjoyed as much as this one... at least for a short time anyway). I have neither the time nor patience to detail the laundry list of issues I have with this game, but there have been a multitude of intelligent, well written posts by better players much smarter than myself addressing these issues to be met either with deafening silence, or patronized with "We know best but thanks for your feedback!" condescension.

This kind of immature "I'm immune to trolls because I'm industry elite" response to a frustrated player making a harmless, sarcastic remark is the final straw for me. If you can't behave decently in your posts, how can I trust you with any kind of legitimate decision-making in game? Ugh...

Goodbye EA/BW, I'm sure I won't be missed.

I have to say that I'm very unhappy with 1.2 as well, even though the respecs are free, Not giving us one feels like a slap in the face after a class you had so much fun with is gutted.

I'd like to know who thought trying to basically re-balance every class at once was a good idea? I thought we did a pretty good job in beta getting things right in PVE but I knew we were going to have issues in PVP. However, I never thought BW would sweep in and make changes like this in one fell swoop. They should have tweaked one class at a time to balance for PVE and simply changed how the skills worked when used on another player in PVP to achieve the desired balance there.

Having said that, the posts made by the Dev in this thread are just plain outrageous. All I can say is, he's very lucky he doesn't work for me. This is one of the worst cases of poor customer service I've seen in 13 years of playing MMO's.

Very bad form!

This thread is amazing...and not in a good way in spite of the fact that I truly respect several of the posters. The simple fact is that while I will be the first to complain about many aspects of the nerfing of my class, not getting a free respec didn't make the list. Not only did the changes not break the tree in spite of making us all re-evaluate our choices and possibly want to respec, but its free once a week and even respecing multiple times costs peanuts compared to say buying a single Reflex stim which costs 30k credits on my GTN. Tilt at windmills much?

 

The only thing I find more absurd than complaining about this in the first place is the fact that it drew a Bioware response.

 

Of all the questions asked about what your "metrics" were showing that caused you to believe we needed nerfs and of all the reasonable questions asked about why of all things you chose to use our resource efficiency and signature skill to effect the changes, you choose answer one about not getting a free respec?

 

One of the biggest reasons people are outraged about the lack of a free respect is because of the frustration resulting from a complete blindside nerf that we received and the complete lack of any real explanation as to why it was needed and why it was implemented the way it was. "Healers were too good" does not really answer the questions that IMO still deserve to be answered. Yet instead of addressing these issues, you respond to this one?

 

RuQu could not have said it better:

I honestly did not know that you get a free respec per week. Now that I do, I am supremely mystified as to what the complaint is about not getting a free respec after the patch. With that in mind, and keeping in mind I found the responses from BioWare to be hilarious, I don't see what all the hubub is about. You get 52 free respecs with this game every year and you are upset that you did not get 1 more? Amazing.

As for the "blindside nerf" and why they didn't explain it, I would say it was pretty obvious to ANYONE that has played this particular build. Heck, I don't even watch the numbers much and could tell the build was OP'd. As a matter of fact, I deleted mine because the OP made it no fun to play.

I have to say that I'm very unhappy with 1.2 as well, even though the respecs are free, Not giving us one feels like a slap in the face after a class you had so much fun with is gutted.

 

I'd like to know who thought trying to basically re-balance every class at once was a good idea? I thought we did a pretty good job in beta getting things right in PVE but I knew we were going to have issues in PVP. However, I never thought BW would sweep in and make changes like this in one fell swoop. They should have tweaked one class at a time to balance for PVE and simply changed how the skills worked when used on another player in PVP to achieve the desired balance there.

 

Having said that, the posts made by the Dev in this thread are just plain outrageous. All I can say is, he's very lucky he doesn't work for me. This is one of the worst cases of poor customer service I've seen in 13 years of playing MMO's.

 

Very bad form!

Someone has never been on the WoW fourms or the NCsoft forums. Nor have they ever been on the Eve forums or AoC forums. All four of those get so condescending from the developers that it is amazing they have any players left. What I saw on this forum from the developer was actually kind of refreshing. Honesty, with a little bit of a jab, without being condescending. It almost reminds me of a conversation I would have with friendly co-workers, except that the BioWare Rep here was actually nicer than we would have been in "real life".

This, to put it nicely, a kind of self-centred suggestion. That said, it's an easy conclusion to come to when you're the well-informed, knowledge-gathering, systems-minded forum-going type of player. But, believe it or not, that's the minority of any gaming audience. I know it's hard to believe when you look around and all you see is similar knowledge-gathering and knowledge-sharing forum-goers, but that's still the minority.

 

Most players have their accessibility and understanding of the game damaged when they get a free respec. For most players, this is a jarring and unwelcome experience. We don't want to have to give out respecs at all, which is why it is only limited to when it's technically essential to making your character not break. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but it's still the answer.

Is it about as damaging as the complete and utter destruction of an entire class subtype? How about the negative accessibility for said subtype, especially those who (used) to enjoy PvP?

Would it not be better to offer those who are seriously disgruntled with the changes the option to respec into something, you know, viable.

Your entire stance on the issue of post-gutting respecs is rather disturbing.

Honesty, with a little bit of a jab, without being condescending. It almost reminds me of a conversation I would have with friendly co-workers, except that the BioWare Rep here was actually nicer than we would have been in "real life".

What I initially found worse than AP's troll joke (which wasn't that bad) was that this was the post of mine that got a Dev response.

I have over 1600 posts on these forums. They aren't all gold, but a lot of them are on serious topics, and involve questions and issues that a Developer response would be really helpful on. Many people are happy just to see a Dev reply to them, but to have them reply to such a trivial and non-substantial post when there are real questions that are being ignored was very disconcerting.

However, with his 2 subsequent posts in this thread, it is now clear that AP actually just tends to continue the conversation. I replied to him, as did others, and he responded to our responses with my post just happening to be the one he selected to do so. This is in contrast to GZ, who I am much more used to, who has more of a tendency to drop in, troll a thread, and never return.

I really don't think there is much more to say in this thread:

1) Respecs are free weekly.

2) The Devs don't see it as giving a "free respec" they see it as forcing a mandatory reset, and something to avoid.

3) The process is automated and only seemed to exclude Commandos due to a bug giving some other ACs respecs on accident.

4) AP wasn't responding to a trivial post of mine while ignoring substantial questions in other posts/threads, he was just continuing the conversation (which is a good thing...)

5) His troll comment was meant lightheartedly, even if it failed to come off that way in context of the current mood on the forums. The context is also different when within a continuing dialogue (again a good thing) than when its a stray post and how the conversation is left.

The respec issue was always minor and trivial.

The trolling post isn't that big of a deal either. I'm not offended, he's apologized (or made it clear no offense was meant which is the same to me).

Honestly I'd rather have AP attempting a running dialogue with us (poorly received jokes and all) then read another post by GZ. Now if only we could get AP to come talk about something important...

Sorry to just drop in on this, but I spotted a link somewhere and haven't actually read through the whole thing... but it just seems to me that this is such a non-issue, that I can't really understand why the devs are being difficult about it.

If this were a game where respecs never happen or they are very strongly controlled, then I could perhaps understand the devs being retiscent about giving out free respecs. But Respecs are freely available to anybody from skill mentors - there's a cost attached if you do it a lot of course... but it's not like respecs are strongly controlled in this game. I knew people who would respec between PvP and PvE...

I suppose BW could say that since they're so available, players should pay for them.... but if they're so available, why would you be so stingy with them? In the end... what difference does it make?

Meh... just seems like a pointless argument to have to be having.

X

I know that as an individual, it's easy to rationalize this line of thinking, but understand that we cannot make everyone happy.

 

If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did not receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of "neglecting" that class (just like in this thread!). If we made judgement calls for who to give respecs to, and a class did receive a free respec after a change, we'd be accused of admitting the spec got "gutted," to use your words. And why wouldn't players think that - we just handed them free tickets to go elsewhere, right?

 

The only fair, honest, and logical way to give free respecs is to base them on technical necessity.

 

 

Or, Commando skill points weren't refunded for the reasons I've already given and elaborated on.

 

Also, devs get standard-issue troll resistance when they join the biz, just FYI.

Holy Jesus, I never thought I would see a developer that could be more arrogant and with a worse holier than thou attitude in this game than Georg, you sir managed to be worse than Georg Zoeller (Unless you are George Zoeller using a different forum name, which is most likely the case.). You implied that a player was a troll, while attempting to troll him in the same post, lol are you serious? If anyone is trolling here, it's you. They are asking legitimate questions and you're giving them answers to purposely piss them off in a trolling manner. I also like those happy face emotes you do to make people mad, I really do.