((Cross posted from the server forum of where this happened.))

Ok I can't claim to have invented the term, I saw it last night in fleet and it made me chuckle. We all know that if you have a force using character who completes their class story they get the title of Darth. Now in the Star Wars universe this wasn't a title that got handed out like candy as it has been in the game, but I can sort of understand how during a time of war where old guard sith are dropping like flies in battle with each other and the Republic that the Empire might promote a bunch of new young blood Darths. Why these Darth's have nothing better to do but hang out in fleet, get drunk, flirt with others, and have puffery arguments with tons of threats of violence but no actual fights is just another reason why the Empire is on the losing side right now.

However I saw, as did the person who coined this term, probably the worst case of this last night when somebody who was a level 12 fresh off of the shuttle from Korriban started to claim he was a Darth and everybody should just accept it in the name of RP. Now in other games I've played the RP community tends to be split between people who think that your characters level and power should have no effect on RP and if you want to RP as an archmage at level 1... sure. Others ((myself included)) feel that is silly and that if you want to claim to be somebody of huge amounts of power, you should put the time into the character to at least level them up.

What does the rest of the community think? Level 12s.. nothing wrong with them claiming the highest ranks, titles, and powers you can get in the game, or should they at least put in the time to get the title in game before claiming it on their character?

At the very least, it's probably harder to look the part at that level.

But eh. I largely wish there was a more involved process to having rp characters be acknowledged as Darths other than 'because I say so', regardless of their level. Random people rolling sith characters and demanding other people respect their authoritah is the main (and practically the only) reason all my rp server characters are Republic.

For me as i lvl uped another character the difference between the power of 10,20,30,40,50 lvl and of course titles was so bluntly obvious . You come back to Korriban as lvl 55 and you just sweep all with just one ability....

So if anyone thinks that at lvl 1-40 can call him self a Darth..... let he/she duel the True Darth and then she/he will feel the POWER OF THE DARK SIDE. The Darth can solo kill the WB on DK, Balmorra,Nar Shadda, Tatooine, or Aldearran ..... So if you want to be called Darth you have to earn it.

It reminds me some long time ago on Dromund Kaas i have seen an lvl 14 Juggernaut Tried to duel Lvl 50 Jugger.... it was hilarious and also insightful ... like the sith young ling training with his Darth Master.. non stop Dodge,Parry, Ressist, or Miss

At the very least, it's probably harder to look the part at that level.

 

But eh. I largely wish there was a more involved process to having rp characters be acknowledged as Darths other than 'because I say so', regardless of their level. Random people rolling sith characters and demanding other people respect their authoritah is the main (and practically the only) reason all my rp server characters are Republic.

I understand completely, and the closest thing to that, that I've heard was somebody made the comment in fleet.

"Playing a Non-Force user empire side and being upset that Sith boss you around, is like playing a black character in a pre-civil war South Plantation MMO and complaining about being a slave... you sort of knew what you were getting into when you rolled the character."

I don't think level should have any bearing on RP for one simple reason: it doesn't take very long to level in this game.

Nothing is more jarring to me than someone who RPs an acolyte on a fresh character, yet then ascends to Lord around level 30 and Darth at level 50 despite it only taking a couple weeks to get there. I find that far "worse" RP than someone deciding what they want their character to be from the start and RPing the role before they can "back it up" so to speak.

However, I do agree it's silly when a low level tries to throw their weight around and challenges people. But there's a fine line.

Once a friend of mine got absolutely lambasted in spatial OOC for introducing his character as Lord ___. The RP was not confrontational in any way, shape, or form, but since he was level 20-something at the time the other people present felt he should be RPing as an apprentice. The real problem was that they were ICly "informing him" that he was an apprentice and not a lord, i.e. they were metagaming knowledge of his level IC. I find that attitude incredibly stupid for lack of a better word.

So summed up, my opinion is that level should have zero bearing on a character's role, but low-level characters should also be prepared to not be taken seriously if they go around challenging people and trying to throw their weight around. Since it's considered poor form to take the class story IC anyway, I don't think we should be discouraging people from coming up with a character concept at level 1 and sticking to it instead of feeling compelled to adhere to the class story for RP in any way. We aren't all the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox, so why does hitting 50 suddenly make your Sith a Darth? It shouldn't! At all!

Not every 55 Sith should be a Darth, anyway, meaning level -really- has no value. My most well-geared PVP character who can beat most people in duels is a non-combatant, untitled Sith IC.

(As an aside, there's few things that annoy me more than barfly Darths, but that's a whole 'nother topic.)

I don't think level should have any bearing on RP for one simple reason: it doesn't take very long to level in this game.

Which in my mind makes it even more silly when people can't be bothered to level up and get the title if they want to RP their character as a Darth. It's just a big red flag to me that the person in question is so lazy that they can't level up in a game that doesn't take very long to level.

Once a friend of mine got absolutely lambasted in spatial OOC for introducing his character as Lord ___. The RP was not confrontational in any way, shape, or form, but since he was level 20-something at the time the other people present felt he should be RPing as an apprentice. The real problem was that they were ICly "informing him" that he was an apprentice and not a lord, i.e. they were metagaming knowledge of his level IC. I find that attitude incredibly stupid for lack of a better word.

It's very much part of the lore that force users can get a feel for how powerful other force users are.

Which in my mind makes it even more silly when people can't be bothered to level up and get the title if they want to RP their character as a Darth. It's just a big red flag to me that the person in question is so lazy that they can't level up in a game that doesn't take very long to level.

I agree if the character hasn't bothered to level for a very long period, but if someone is excited to RP their new character, I don't think they should have to wait til 55 to do so.

Level has absolutely zero bearing on quality RP. Are the bazillion 55 Darths who do nothing but flirt and dance in the cantinas doing it right just because they have the title in front of their names?

It's very much part of the lore that force users can get a feel for how powerful other force users are.

And level should have no bearing on RP for the reason I stated. If someone "senses" my 55 ranked PVP geared and fully purple augmented character was "strong" IC I'd be annoyed since she is a non-combatant IC.

This game is restrictive enough with what we can RP without trying to force people to adhere to one standard based solely on game mechanics. IC and OOC should never be mixed and for very many RPers, game mechanics are largely OOC. I am only going to spend 1 mill+ credits to augment and mod one set of gear at a time, but on my combatant character, she doesn't suddenly become weak if I change into a different set of armor for RP that has no mods.

Just the way that your character can't see someone's name floating above their head (i.e. addressing someone you've never met IC by their name is bad form), they also can't see health, level, or gear. Because those things don't exist IC for a gigantic chunk of the RP population.

A character should never change based on if it's level 30 or 55 or wearing quality gear or not.

For what it's worth, I do wait to RP my characters til they're max level, but I am not going to condemn anyone else for failing to do so. Characters should start at what they are. How does it make sense to go from acolyte to Darth in the time it takes to level up? And also, by that logic, EVERY SINGLE 55 should be a Darth yet I'm assuming you don't think so considering you named the thread Darth inflation.

IC and OOC should never be mixed and for very many RPers, game mechanics are largely OOC.

You are welcome to that opinion, but clearly I disagree. I mean I'd react to somebody running an Agent character and claiming to be Darth the same way. Don't roll an agent if you want to RP as a force user, don't roll a sith true blood and tell me that you are really a Chiss... and don't have a level 12 character and tell me he's amazingly powerful. It's silly.

The other reason I like having ingame power reflect your characters power.. it isn't subjective and it solves silly posturing where EVERYBODY is the most bestest light saber force wielding BMF evar....

You are welcome to that opinion, but clearly I disagree. I mean I'd react to somebody running an Agent character and claiming to be Darth the same way. Don't roll an agent if you want to RP as a force user, don't roll a sith true blood and tell me that you are really a Chiss... and don't have a level 12 character and tell me he's amazingly powerful. It's silly.

 

The other reason I like having ingame power reflect your characters power.. it isn't subjective and it solves silly posturing where EVERYBODY is the most bestest light saber force wielding BMF evar....

You disagree, and that's fine, as long as you realize that a massive number of RPers don't adhere to your views either. There are seriously two schools of thought--level doesn't matter and level does matter. I already explained how the two can get along, and it's very simple: the low level shouldn't try to throw their weight around IC, and the high level shouldn't metagame and go "you're weak, you're not a REAL Lord!" Like anything else, RP is give and take. Not everyone has the same mindset so it's better to try to be considerate and work with other people than to say it's your way or the highway.

So, do you believe that every single 55 should be a Darth then? I don't understand since your thread title is about Darth inflation. I would think you'd encourage people to not assume max level = super powerful IC.

Also, it's important to realize that the titles of Lord and Darth are largely political and have exceedingly little to do with IC power. There were Darths on the Dark Council that weren't great combatants, and super powerful combatants that never rose beyond Lord.

99.9% of RP problems come down to everyone wanting to "win." If "winning" isn't important to you then you tend to stop caring what level people are or if they try to throw their weight around IC. I personally am way happier having a level 55 non-combatant that isn't powerful IC than I am trying to stomp on everyone else just because I'm geared for PVP.

Honesty in my view on roleplay, levels, titles, etc above the names don't exist. You will have to come up to me and introduce yourself. I have no idea who you are or even your profession until you tell me. Also don't walk up to me saying my name either unless we have met. I will not answer you.

Would you honesty walk up to me and expect me to know who you are? Titles, names, levels, etc above the head is just a mechanic.

Honesty in my view on roleplay, levels, titles, etc above the names don't exist. You will have to come up to me and introduce yourself. I have no idea who you are or even your profession until you tell me. Also don't walk up to me saying my name either unless we have met. I will not answer you.

 

Would you honesty walk up to me and expect me to know who you are? Titles, names, levels, etc above the head is just a mechanic.

This had nothing to do with the name and the like above the person's head, and everything to do with the level 12 in question RPing and telling everybody he was a Darth and expecting others to be ok with. Honestly most people laughed him off, and one person played as if his character assumed he was a cultist who thought he could do things he clearly couldn't. He even acted like a level 50 guy who was only RPing his character as a Lord was doing something wrong by not treating him as if he had more authority. It was pretty silly.

So, do you believe that every single 55 should be a Darth then? I don't understand since your thread title is about Darth inflation. I would think you'd encourage people to not assume max level = super powerful IC.

If you read my Opening I explained how I viewed the large number of Darths... not that everybody who is level 55 even claims to be a darth.

That said if low levels can fiat their character into power and title, then it should be just as valid if I claim my characters power relative to other people is based on his levels and character fighting ability as presented by the game. If you are as powerful, well connected, and have whatever titles you wish to give yourself, then that should work as well.

This had nothing to do with the name and the like above the person's head, and everything to do with the level 12 in question RPing and telling everybody he was a Darth and expecting others to be ok with. Honestly most people laughed him off, and one person played as if his character assumed he was a cultist who thought he could do things he clearly couldn't. He even acted like a level 50 guy who was only RPing his character as a Lord was doing something wrong by not treating him as if he had more authority. It was pretty silly.

But... why can't you see the connection?

Level 12 is OOC knowledge the same way someone's character name is. Not everyone takes level IC, so expecting everyone to and making up things IC about their character is equally silly in many RPers eyes.

A level 12 Darth bossing everyone around should be no different IC than a level 55 Darth bossing everyone around. Because your character doesn't live in a world where people have numbers over their heads.

I feel the need to clarify again that I personally would never RP a low-level Darth, but I am gonna bring up my friend's experience as a level 20 Lord again. He had just rolled the character and decided to RP him on Korriban with me to get a feel for the character, while we were in the process of leveling. Some random person came up and started calling him "apprentice" and attempting to boss him around out of nowhere--i.e. they initiated a confrontation. When my friend's character ICly bristled and said he was a Lord, then all the IC comments like "No you aren't, you're an apprentice!" started up before devolving into them yelling in spatial about how level 20s aren't lords until they complete act 1 of the class story. It was so dumb and immersion breaking.

That situation was asinine and it sounds to me like people did the same thing to the level 12. If you don't want to RP with someone, just walk off. Demeaning their character IC is totally unnecessary. I see lots of people RPing things I refuse to have anything to do with, such as starting a "new empire" or RPing being on the dark council... so I just don't interact with them.

Game mechanics are OOC because they're part of a game. We could transplant our characters and write stories about them outside of the game where there is no such thing as a level. RP didn't originate in MMOs after all. It's fine to use levels IC, but it isn't really the norm either.

This had nothing to do with the name and the like above the person's head, and everything to do with the level 12 in question RPing and telling everybody he was a Darth and expecting others to be ok with. Honestly most people laughed him off, and one person played as if his character assumed he was a cultist who thought he could do things he clearly couldn't. He even acted like a level 50 guy who was only RPing his character as a Lord was doing something wrong by not treating him as if he had more authority. It was pretty silly.

How did you know he was a level 12 actually? By what was above his head? That is a game mechanic and for some people it is not used.

Let's put it this way if the level, etc was not able to be seen would you have known he was a level 12? What if you were doing a forum roleplay? Would that even be brought up? No. You see I don't use game mechanics as a form of my roleplay . You don't have to roleplay with the person but that doesn't mean his roleplay is wrong either.

The emphasis should not be on the level but on the person and if you want to roleplay with them. If you don't move on and find people you can roleplay with.

A level 12 Darth bossing everyone around should be no different IC than a level 55 Darth bossing everyone around. Because your character doesn't live in a world where people have numbers over their heads.

Except if you take the level 12 to any of the major planets he's going to get creamed by anything in the game. Where as the Level 55.. not so much. There is a power difference in the characters.

That situation was asinine and it sounds to me like people did the same thing to the level 12

That's exactly the opposite of what I described, so I'm wondering where you got that it sounds like that.

Let's put it this way if the level, etc was not able to be seen would you have known he was a level 12? What if you were doing a forum roleplay? Would that even be brought up? No. You see I don't use game mechanics as a form of my roleplay . You don't have to roleplay with the person but that doesn't mean his roleplay is wrong either.

He clearly didn't have the powers of somebody who had completed the game. At level 12, most of the powers you get in the game aren't even there yet.

That said.... I'll repeat from before...

It's very much part of the lore that force users can get a feel for how powerful other force users are.

Except if you take the level 12 to any of the major planets he's going to get creamed by anything in the game. Where as the Level 55.. not so much. There is a power difference in the characters.

But you aren't acknowledging what we're telling you! You are perfectly entitled to RP that way but it is NOT the norm for other people to. I have been RPing in MMOs for a very long time and I've met enough RPers across multiple games and servers that I can safely say there are more RPers who view level as purely OOC than RPers who view it as IC.

You also aren't acknowledging the fact that a level 55 is not necessarily a powerful character IC. I keep using the example of my main. OOC I enjoy PVPing on her the most and she can beat most people in duels. IC, she isn't a fighter at all. She would lose virtually any direct fight. Just because I can solo Oricon on her OOC doesn't mean that she's powerful IC.

And, you also aren't acknowledging what I said earlier. Lord & Darth are political titles and have virtually nothing to do with physical skill in combat or "power level." Darth Vowrawn was on the Dark Council and yet needed help from other people to not die. Darth Zhorrid was also on the Dark Council and got beaten up several times. And then there are incredibly powerful Lords who never rise to Darth at all.

Add into this that a gigantic number of RPers take killing mobs OOC (i.e. my guild had a RP event on Oricon and we would nuke the mobs and resume RPing as if nothing had happened) and that the majority of RP takes place in "safe" locations where there is no PVE or PVP combat and the ability to kill mobs means extremely little in day to day RP interactions.

That's exactly the opposite of what I described, so I'm wondering where you got that it sounds like that.

How is it the opposite? You said that people responded to the level 12 Darth by telling him he was a cultist and not a Darth or by laughing him off and refusing to accept his claims. That is the same exact scenario I brought up with my friend being told he wasn't a Lord and was REALLY an apprentice because he was level 20. Both are metagaming OOC information (level) and abusing it by using it IC to minimize someone else's character and attempt to maintain IC superiority. It all comes down to ego in the end and how nobody dares want to "lose" by considering that other characters might have power of their own.

It's very much part of the lore that force users can get a feel for how powerful other force users are.

Which is true, yet has no bearing on RP for many people. That's all we're saying. Are all level 55s equal in power? No... so why is it someone's place to inform a lower level character that they aren't what they say they are IC?

I would be just as offended by someone "sensing" that my geared 55 was powerful, because she isn't IC! "Sensing" someone's level is metagaming to the same extent that "knowing" their name or guild tag IC is. Seriously.

Judging by the description of the level 12 Darth, I am willing to bet that you would have had an issue with his RP even if he was geared and level 55.

I personally have absolutely no issue with a lvl 12 dude claiming to be a Darth, as long as it happens so he plays the role well. How is it that you think this isn't all that really matters? I'm amazed if that isn't all that matters for the majority of people reading this thread. Leveling your character to 50 or 55 doesn't magically attune you to some mad RP skillz.

Significant portion of charactets RP'd as Darths, Lords, Jedi or Jedi Masters degenerate into flirty characters of Sex and the City anyway. If in middle of all this pops a creative lvl 22 dude who has a very clear, impressive idea of how to RP a Darth, why on earth do you find it in you to disapprove? It should be only a good thing, even from your very selfish POV.

In my opinnion, if you start paying too much attention to stuff like character level, amount of XP earned and such it will only end up hurting the RP. It most definately shouldn't be some deciding or definining aspect in anything. I'd like to think most people who are part of some larger RP community or another can agree class story or most of the ways you earn XP can't really be some central, integral or even existing part of your character's history RP-wise. With that in mind, why should the level earned be put on some altar above everything else?

Isaac Asimov, G.R.R Martin and Timothy Zahn decide their boy club needs a new hobby. Why not start TOR and create an RP guild of three Darths. They have no intention or desire to play through the class story but rather, begin RPing from get go. They immediately begin producing freakin Hugo award winning prose in /say to everybody around them. ->OP proceeds to ridicule them because lvl 12 can't be a darth. Asimov gets pissed and goes back to WoW. gg, OP:(

I usually don't roleplay much (not in the "traditional" way at least).

Mainly because I'm dyslexic and therefore have problem typing and reading at the pace needed for more than 1 on 1 RP.

And secondly because I find roleplay in MMO's kinda boring and consisting of mostly people fluffing their own ego (sorry if I offend anyone here).

I grew up on PnP roleplaying games and there you had to work to get your character to an epic level.

And even then the GM could snuff you at a whim if he wanted to.

But in MMO's people usually have a superpowerful character (ie. "I am the chosen one!") and it all devolves into a pissing contest of word vs. word.

Now, if someone has actually taken the time to play to lvl 55 or whatnot and earned the title of Darth, then sure, I'll cut them some slack if they at least stay within the "I am one of many" type character.

And if they still insist on the kind of RP where they are the pivot of the universe and more powerful than everyone else combined, I'll just ignore them.

If a lvl 12, however, comes up to me claiming to be a Darth and demanding that I obey him or something like that... well then I'll just claim to be the emperor and that he should submit to my domination or face death.

Because if he can be a Darth at lvl 12, then I sure as heck can be the Emperor.

I know this ruffles alot of feathers in the RP community, but honestly, unless that lvl 12 has a following of 20 other RP'ers who swear that he is their master and they obey him, I'm not going to take him seriously.

How is it the opposite? You said that people responded to the level 12 Darth by telling him he was a cultist and not a Darth or by laughing him off and refusing to accept his claims. That is the same exact scenario I brought up with my friend being told he wasn't a Lord and was REALLY an apprentice because he was level 20. Both are metagaming OOC information (level) and abusing it by using it IC to minimize someone else's character and attempt to maintain IC superiority. It all comes down to ego in the end and how nobody dares want to "lose" by considering that other characters might have power of their own.

People only started to react that way to him after he started giving orders and tossing around his weight as a Darth and saying that he could defeat them easily because they were only a lord and he was a Darth and that made him a big shot in the Empire.

Obviously nobody can fight another on fleet, the mechanics of the game prevent it... but that doesn't stop people from posturing.

He clearly didn't have the powers of somebody who had completed the game. At level 12, most of the powers you get in the game aren't even there yet.

 

That said.... I'll repeat from before...

 

It's very much part of the lore that force users can get a feel for how powerful other force users are.

You are not understanding what I am trying to say. What you see is a game mechanic showing that he is level 12 only. You are not seeing that he could very well roleplay his role very well. The abilities are just a game mechanic in a game which has nothing to do with roleplaying.

In roleplaying it is taking a role and making it work for you. For me example I don't use most of the game mission as a basis of my roleplay. My background and story has been done prior to the game and I may take bits and pieces of it to work into my story but for the most part it is just something that the game provided and is not part of my story.

This could be what this invididual was doing but you only saw his level.

You have every right not to roleplay with him but you don't have the right to tell him he can't roleplay that way. Most of the roleplayiers I know separate the game mechanics from the actual roleplay because quite frankly the game mechancis are limiting to what you can do and most roleplayers have a better ideas for their character.

Levels, names, titles are non-existent for a lot of the roleplayers. They are just there for the game.

The problem is you are taking a role in a game that grants roles, titles and powers, and claiming for yourself titles, roles, and the like that the game has granted you.

In free form RP that's more allowed because there are very few rules, but in a game that has rules there are ways to have your character have the powers, ranks and titles you want. Sort of like playing monopoly and on the first turn declairing that you want to RP as somebody who owns all the property on the board and others should just go with it because actually owning the property is a game mechanic and you are RPing.

the game mechancis are limiting to what you can do and most roleplayers have a better ideas for their character.

Having some limits is not a bad thing. It's the same reason I shake my head about people who RP as vampires like Venture or Brujha or Toreadores in a Star Wars game. Or somebody who says that he's a Star Trek officer and this is a holodeck program... or somebody who claims to be puff the magic dragon ((totally not a drug reference.. honest!)).

StarMagus, you started this thread asking what people think, only to completely disregard/fail to respond to anyone with a different viewpoint, lol.

Yes, some people share your mindset, but as has already been explained to you, it isn't a "problem" that some people consider RP to be outside the game mechanics. It's just a Rp style.

Here's another real example for you. My guild is a dedicated RP guild, meaning we exist solely to RP, not to PVP & raid and sometimes RP on the side like many guilds. Some people who have no interest in actually playing the "real game" anymore have come back to TOR to RP with us. Others are F2P and limited and are leveling in slow motion, yet play Lords. Why should they be "punished" and not taken seriously by random people when they have months/years to back up their RP as well as a whole guild of people taking them seriously?

Here's another scenario! I had a max level geared Jugg and then decided to recreate the same character as a Marauder, and I RPed her while leveling. Did my character suddenly have no power anymore just because I rerolled her?

Your way is the right way for you, but it isn't the right way for everyone.

I would seriously be interested to know your mindset about level 55s since you keep avoiding the question? Are they all the same power level, then, regardless of if someone is RPing a non-combatant or not? Level is so arbitrary.

or somebody who claims to be puff the magic dragon ((totally not a drug reference.. honest!)).

Oh I remember puff the magic dragon! That was a great movie (when you were a kid)

I think the better question is; Why does everybody have to play a frikkin Darth?

Isn't it challenging to play a lower level character? Maby not even a Lord, but an apprentice and whatnot?

But i swear, 9 out of 10 RP'ers I see that play Sith are frikkin Darths... If not something even higher... *sigh*