Hey Bioware,

I got the new re skinned mount yesterday that you put so much effort into making for us. I won it on a fair roll with my guild members. But for other people, this is not the case.

There have been many people who have said that they were robbed of their chances to get the new mount, because either the group leader took it for themselves, they said it was a "guild run" at the end of the fight, or they changed the loot rules during combat just before the end of the fight so they could ninja all the loot.

I was wondering, do you tolerate this?

Say I join a group, in which the leader advertised that it was round robin loot (meaning everyone has a chance to roll on the drops), but then the group leader changes the loot to Master Looter mid-fight and takes all the stuff, is that allowed? You have stated that it's not a bug, and it's not an exploit.

So it must be allowed right? Considering you're giving these people the option to exploit and deceive other players for their time and effort for your own benefit.

Is this the end of pugging? People say its your fault for trusting a pug, but I don't see how it's your fault that the pug exploited everyone by -changing the loot rules during combat just before the end of the fight-.

But if it's not against the rules, then I would fully encourage everyone to do this.

Thanks Bioware!

Despicable attitude for a pug.

But you were already given an answer yesterday.

/obsolete thread.

Despicable attitude for a pug.

 

But you were already given an answer yesterday.

 

/obsolete thread.

Oh really? I didn't see it.

Can you please link the answer Bioware gave us?

Oh really? I didn't see it.

 

Can you please link the answer Bioware gave us?

the thread you posted yourself, in which amber (bioware) told you that they've discussed it. It is not a game exploit or a bug.

Edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664388

the thread you posted yourself, in which amber (bioware) told you that they've discussed it. It is not a game exploit or a bug.

That doesn't answer this thread though. I've already mentioned that answer in this thread if you actually bothered to read it.

Try again.

Bioware can only overlook it because it does not happen that often. That might change as people notice that it will not get punished because it is a working as intended mechanic.

So while only those people with no morals did this before it is possible that more people feel encouraged to act that way because they have that statement that it is working as intended and for that matter ok to do. Especially if you offer stuff only for a limited time like the mount from the gree world boss it is not unlikely that people encourage others to join a group and then lock them out of the loot process because they where only helpes for the guild or leader of the raid. So the statement that i would expect would be yes we said it is not a bug or exploit but it is also a mechanic that should work exactly that way and you should be able to use it that way.

If that is not the case well they should provide a way to take action against it. So they keep silent i guess it is ok to do it as we don't kow how to take action.

But if it's not against the rules, then I would fully encourage everyone to do this.

Just because something is not against the rules, doesn't mean, that it is also not morally wrong.

To answer your thread title... no, it is not allowed to exploit other players.

But as stated yesterday, the behaviour you were describing is not seen as an exploit, so your thread title and thread content are in slight mismatch.

Also I haven't seen "many" people complain about such behaviour. I have in fact not seen any such thing happen or be talked about on the server I play on.

It is (according to the rules) fully legit to change the loot rules to master looter at any time and it is also legit to keep all loot as the master looter.

It is however also absolutely legit to put such a group leader on ignore and I personally weigh getting on a bunch of ignore lists as more important than getting just another speeder, which is as the OP said themselves just a recolored version of an already existing one, which everyone can buy without risking any kind of being exploited.

This thread feels to me like a provocation of flaming... and that is obviously just my opinion.

Players taking advantage of other players because those players are daft will always be a part of online games.

It is not biowares job to hold your hands when you are playing.

Players taking advantage of other players because those players are daft will always be a part of online games.

It is not biowares job to hold your hands when you are playing.

So you're blaming the innocent players because Bioware have given other players the option to exploit other players?

Are you saying no one should be in a pug group ever?

Sorry but I dont understand what youre saying.

I would say that if it's not cheating, and not exploiting, than it is intended to be that way, and there for is allowed. That was pretty clear to me, though I guess I could be wrong, but again, not cheating, not an exploit, shutting down the old thread to avoid confusion = intended game function.

As for encouraging people to do it, why would you do that? I got the feeling you didn't enjoy having it done to you, and rightfully so, it was a despicable move by the player who did it. Why would you encourage people to do this to others when it hurt you? You don't seem like the type who wants to hurt other people, are you trying to hurt the game? It just doesn't make much sense, ya know? You spend a lot of time trying to say what you think is hurting the game and what BioWARE should do to make it better, only to now suggest something that will only hurt the game. I would ask that you think about and reconsider you suggestion.

The ability to change loot rules mid fight is likely there to allow an adjustment for groups when the fight was started with the wrong set of rules. I would encourage players to always play fair and be fair with loot. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, not do unto others as they do to you. Be fair folks and we'll all be better off for it. Will we find trolls and unsavory characters? Yes, but by doing the right thing you can encourage others, who may be on the edge, to do the right thing.

Why would you encourage people to do this to others when it hurt you? You don't seem like the type who wants to hurt other people, are you trying to hurt the game? It just doesn't make much sense, ya know? You spend a lot of time trying to say what you think is hurting the game and what BioWARE should do to make it better, only to now suggest something that will only hurt the game. I would ask that you think about and reconsider you suggestion.

Many people want the mount, and to give them a 100% chance of getting it, I would encourage them to ninja the loot, considering if its not against the rules. Hurting other people or hurting the game isn't those ninja looters fault, there will always be "immoral" people in video games. But Bioware are giving these people the option to exploit other players and they seem to be ignoring it.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you, not do unto others as they do to you. Be fair folks and we'll all be better off for it. Will we find trolls and unsavory characters? Yes, but by doing the right thing you can encourage others, who may be on the edge, to do the right thing.

Like I said, there will always be these sort of people. Plus it's a video game, people can just ninja the gear and log off instantly, probably never to see the same people again.

Many people want the mount, and to give them a 100% chance of getting it, I would encourage them to ninja the loot, considering if its not against the rules. Hurting other people or hurting the game isn't those ninja looters fault, there will always be "immoral" people in video games. But Bioware are giving these people the option to exploit other players and they seem to be ignoring it.

However, if people follow your advice, there will be one happy ninja looter and at least 7 people who are unhappy. (15 if it was a 16-man raid).

If however the master looter is having all people roll in op-chat and then hands the loot to the winner (that is the way the absolute majority of master looter do it), all 8 or 16 people are okay with it, as all got their chance.

So by encouraging the ninja looter, you are encouraging immoral behaviour... Which makes you in my opinion a kind of player, that I would throw to the wookiee kennel, but not want in my group from the start. Luckily, you are playing on a different server than me.

However, if people follow your advice, there will be one happy ninja looter and at least 7 people who are unhappy. (15 if it was a 16-man raid).

 

If however the master looter is having all people roll in op-chat and then hands the loot to the winner (that is the way the absolute majority of master looter do it), all 8 or 16 people are okay with it, as all got their chance.

 

So by encouraging the ninja looter, you are encouraging immoral behaviour... Which makes you in my opinion a kind of player, that I would throw to the wookiee kennel, but not want in my group from the start. Luckily, you are playing on a different server than me.

Thats exactly my point. Immoral or not, if it's not against the rules, then there's not a problem. Calling someone an immoral player isn't going to do much, because its just an opinion, just like calling someone a funny player. If this kind of behaviour, ninja looting, was against the rules, then I wouldn't support it.

But loads of people play this game, loads of people have alts, I dont think many people care about their in game reputation, because if 15 people ignore them, its really not going to affect their game play.

Besides, like someone said before, what if they were role playing as a really immoral player...it would take away their options

Thats exactly my point. Immoral or not, if it's not against the rules, then there's not a problem. Calling someone an immoral player isn't going to do much, because its just an opinion, just like calling someone a funny player. If this kind of behaviour, ninja looting, was against the rules, then I wouldn't support it.

 

But loads of people play this game, loads of people have alts, I dont think many people care about their in game reputation, because if 15 people ignore them, its really not going to affect their game play.

 

Besides, like someone said before, what if they were role playing as a really immoral player...it would take away their options

well, if you do not care for your reputation at all, so be it. My server-community is taking their own measures against such behaviour. Such a "ninja master looter" would have exactly one chance to do that stuff, then the char would be practically dead. Many guilds talking with each other would create a big ignore-wave and that player would basically have a fancy speeder... on a char, that cannot do anything outside of his own guild. And it is not even clear, that his own guild would agree to his behaviour.

In my own guild, such behaviour would lead to being kicked from the guild (both doing the ninja looting and encouraging it). I know other guilds where this would also lead to an immediate eviction.

Reputation is the greatest good, that a player can have in an MMO, as it is the only thing that is not available in abundance, cannot be bought with money and is easily lost for good with slim chances of ever being restored.

And roleplaying a thief using game mechanics only means, that the person got no idea what roleplay is, as they then would also need to accept that an angry mob tears their char to pieces (which the game mechanics do not allow).

The functionality existing is different to how players use that functionality, and is different to how those actions are then policed and dealt with.

Misuse of functionality to cause griefing or player harassment is what is in question. The fact that the ability exists to change loot rules in battle, does not indicate that Bioware endorses misuse of it. Just like providing a chat feature doesn't mean they endorse abusive language, or someone following you around stealing all your quest glowies.

So the question to Bioware really needs to be more direct, and should simply be, in the circumstances in the OP, would that be considered harassment and would it be investigated in the same way?

At the end of the day, it's down to Bioware how much they want to police themselves, and the benefits of doing so, against letting the population police themselves.

Hey Bioware,

 

I got the new re skinned mount yesterday that you put so much effort into making for us. I won it on a fair roll with my guild members. But for other people, this is not the case.

 

There have been many people who have said that they were robbed of their chances to get the new mount, because either the group leader took it for themselves, they said it was a "guild run" at the end of the fight, or they changed the loot rules during combat just before the end of the fight so they could ninja all the loot.

 

I was wondering, do you tolerate this?

 

Say I join a group, in which the leader advertised that it was round robin loot (meaning everyone has a chance to roll on the drops), but then the group leader changes the loot to Master Looter mid-fight and takes all the stuff, is that allowed? You have stated that it's not a bug, and it's not an exploit.

 

So it must be allowed right? Considering you're giving these people the option to exploit and deceive other players for their time and effort for your own benefit.

 

Is this the end of pugging? People say its your fault for trusting a pug, but I don't see how it's your fault that the pug exploited everyone by -changing the loot rules during combat just before the end of the fight-.

 

But if it's not against the rules, then I would fully encourage everyone to do this.

 

Thanks Bioware!

I'm not sure what you are expecting Bioware to do!

There are bad people out there, sometimes you will get screwed over.

That said if Bioware was to rule on every dispute in the game, how do you decide which person is right. I could easily say on TS or Raid Call that we agreed terms of looting and that I could have any speeder that is dropped, this may or may not be true... Its not Biowares job to be a police force for disputes between players.

My server-community is taking their own measures against such behaviour.

So very much this!

And to the OP for starting this thread and the other thread before it. Please.... Running to the forums to tell MomDev and DadDev what the big bad player did? In any other MMO I ever played a ninja looter's name would be spread to every major guild. Their behaviors would be announced in every hub. In a few days that couldn't get into a group and not long after they disappeared entirely. That is how these problems are fixed. It isn't the Devs responsibility. It is your's and that of your community. Now get to blacklisting the punk so we can all get back to laughing at the people being "forced to pvp"!

well, if you do not care for your reputation at all, so be it. My server-community is taking their own measures against such behaviour. Such a "ninja master looter" would have exactly one chance to do that stuff, then the char would be practically dead. Many guilds talking with each other would create a big ignore-wave and that player would basically have a fancy speeder... on a char, that cannot do anything outside of his own guild. And it is not even clear, that his own guild would agree to his behaviour.

In my own guild, such behaviour would lead to being kicked from the guild (both doing the ninja looting and encouraging it). I know other guilds where this would also lead to an immediate eviction.

 

Reputation is the greatest good, that a player can have in an MMO, as it is the only thing that is not available in abundance, cannot be bought with money and is easily lost for good with slim chances of ever being restored.

 

And roleplaying a thief using game mechanics only means, that the person got no idea what roleplay is, as they then would also need to accept that an angry mob tears their char to pieces (which the game mechanics do not allow).

except you arent allowed to name someone who does this. no calling someone out. So they are protected from the only real consequences. But if it is WAI then you can post a thread congratulating them on a well played scam. If cs doesnt like it, you are doing nothing wrong.

except you arent allowed to name someone who does this. no calling someone out. So they are protected from the only real consequences. But if it is WAI then you can post a thread congratulating them on a well played scam. If cs doesnt like it, you are doing nothing wrong.

You cannot name them on the forums.

You can most certainly blacklist them in-game.

I'm not sure what you are expecting Bioware to do!

 

There are bad people out there, sometimes you will get screwed over.

I can only speak for myself, but I expect Bioware to address this issue. It's obviously being abused and only Bioware has the ability to change it...and it's an OBVIOUS thing they should change...it's really not that hard to see WHY it needs to be changed.

If you don't think Bioware has a responsibility to prevent this, who does? ONE a-hole can mess up my lockout for an entire WEEK! That's not reasonable. We can't name names on the forums, I bet if we broadcast his name in general, we'd get silenced in-game as well. Bioware DOES need to address this...it's not an unreasonable request.

While I couldn't care less about the Red Sphere personally, (I mean I hated the Blue Sphere too, it's Star Wars, not Tron Wars for God's sake), I think the OP makes a reasonable suggestion not to allow changing the loot rules during combat. I agree the situation he found himself in is quite unpleasant, I've seen that happen too, though not very often.

However, I believe the way the OP makes his suggestion makes him appear belligerent towards Bioware and that less confrontationally worded posts could go a long way towards making Bioware sympathetic towards his otherwise reasonable request.

There is no reason to kick in the door when we can simply knock first.

EDIT: That or add in a majority vote system every time the leader wants to change the loot rules. Then the players could decide if they want it changed or not.

Ninja looting is part of the MMO experience. What's more, now that there are server transfers, you can start over on any server. The only thing stopping people from ninja looting is morality at this point.

Personally, if I am after a speeder drop and the group leader sets master loot, I leave the group.

Welcome to your first class in Practical Human Behavior OP. It is not EA/BW's fault that there are people who will lie/cheat/steal from other players. I guarantee that if they changed the system to lock in rules at a group start they would get 1000 times the grief they would get over this.

Bottom line: You roll with a pug group, you take your chances

The thread certainly could've been made in a better way, with better intentions, but this is absolutely true.

A thread like this can accomplish a number of things:

• Show BW what the general forum-goers reaction is.
  
• Spread the information regarding the issue at hand. (I had no clue you could do this, prior to an earlier post about it)
  
• Show BW that it is of concern to people, and why people feel that way.
  
• Can foster community meta-discussion on BWs expected stance on policing what is basically a "social rule."
  

The only downside can be the posts that seem to be happening more recently -- where the OP feels the need to point out rule-breaking, instead of reporting as she has been told to do. It further detracts from the validity that can be found in the thread.

I actually feel that is almost the best policy, though -- /report an issue with the game, and discuss it on the forums if you feel the community should know about it, may have strong feelings about it either way, and hope that BW notices the community working together to possibly "fix" an issue and steps in to help or acknowledge what is going on.