If you don't want to hear "l2p," then l2p. If you come on the forums and constantly whine about how awful sorcs are, I have to assume you don't know how to play a sorc because I know how to play a sorc and can do so in warzones quite competently. When you make absolute statements about how terrible the class is, expect to hear l2p because it isn't nearly as bad as you make it sound.

If by your lofty benchmark I am a bad player, then by god, I am. I am happy to be in such vaunted company than to be associated with such a person as you. However, one thing I have not done is qq on these forums about the Sorcerer. You'd known this if you'd researched before opening your mouth. I've defended using the Lightning spec in the face of being berated and ridiculed beyond belief. I’ve made a few posts concerning my change since. I'm a recreational player. I'm here to have fun. This is not a game that influences my life and it never will. I do not and will not participate in Ranked WZ because I'm not a zealot or so self-absorbed that I must be a ranked player to be someone. It holds no appeal to me. It appears that you and others must do so.

I do not min/max my gear because I do not have the time to spend farming or being farmed. I use the tools that I am given. Apparently, you and the rest that swap out mods/enhancements and whatever else cannot function in a WZ without finding short cuts to increase stats. A true player uses what they have to their advantage, not cheat, or use some kind of exploit to increase what was never intended to do in the first place. It is players such as your selves that purposefully change the curve of competition for your own self-gratification and aggrandizement.

I don't know what else to say to you about this. It is obvious that you and Orryko are living gods in PvP. You both are legends in your own minds as far as I am concerned. I'll continue being a "bad player" and enjoy every moment of it because I know who I am and what I am here for. One thing for sure, I'll never want or even desire to be someone like you whatsoever. You simply disgust me with your rhetoric and beneath me attitude.

 

Apparently, you and the rest that swap out mods/enhancements and whatever else cannot function in a WZ without finding short cuts to increase stats. A true player uses what they have to their advantage, not cheat, or use some kind of exploit to increase what was never intended to do in the first place. .

uhhh wut? they purposefully put bad enhancements/mods in pieces so that we keep paying/playing in order to make our stats what they should be.

i have no issue whatsoever if you're a casual player or just play for fun, etc. my issue is all the sorcs who come here crying that lightning isn't viable, this and that, when they don't know how to play correctly. whiny bads need to look at themselves, not cry on some forums.

 

And depreva...I can 1v1 very easily against most people and classes. There are a handful of good players for certain classes that would beat me or give me trouble, but most would fall over. The problem, as I've stated before, is that a lot of times you have to play perfectly and rotate bubble stuns with knockback and hard stun to win. If they adjust the resolve value on bubble stun then I probably would lose the majority of 1v1s I am winning now.

No of course, I only lose match-ups against skilled, geared players who blow their cooldowns on me. In a warzone I am usually just fine especially if I'm playing with a team. Its just that the hybrid and full madness specs are much better and easier to 1v1 with. Sadly regardless of what dps spec you play you need to know the match-up and play perfectly in order to win against a good player.

My stalker set bonus probably doesn't help either lol

If by your lofty benchmark I am a bad player, then by god, I am. I am happy to be in such vaunted company than to be associated with such a person as you. However, one thing I have not done is qq on these forums about the Sorcerer. You'd known this if you'd researched before opening your mouth. I've defended using the Lightning spec in the face of being berated and ridiculed beyond belief. I’ve made a few posts concerning my change since. I'm a recreational player. I'm here to have fun. This is not a game that influences my life and it never will. I do not and will not participate in Ranked WZ because I'm not a zealot or so self-absorbed that I must be a ranked player to be someone. It holds no appeal to me. It appears that you and others must do so.

 

I do not min/max my gear because I do not have the time to spend farming or being farmed. I use the tools that I am given. Apparently, you and the rest that swap out mods/enhancements and whatever else cannot function in a WZ without finding short cuts to increase stats. A true player uses what they have to their advantage, not cheat, or use some kind of exploit to increase what was never intended to do in the first place. It is players such as your selves that purposefully change the curve of competition for your own self-gratification and aggrandizement.

 

I don't know what else to say to you about this. It is obvious that you and Orryko are living gods in PvP. You both are legends in your own minds as far as I am concerned. I'll continue being a "bad player" and enjoy every moment of it because I know who I am and what I am here for. One thing for sure, I'll never want or even desire to be someone like you whatsoever. You simply disgust me with your rhetoric and beneath me attitude.

I don't think SoonerJBD or Xenobia think they are gods. Generally when I see them post on the forums they are trying to give advice or at least correct people when they are mistaken. You can tell alone from their posts that they know the class and how to play. At the very least they are more knowledgeable than most of the players that post here and you shouldn't be so condescending just because they have a more educated and experienced opinion than yourself.

If by your lofty benchmark I am a bad player, then by god, I am. I am happy to be in such vaunted company than to be associated with such a person as you. However, one thing I have not done is qq on these forums about the Sorcerer.

This entire thread is a giant group cry about how terrible sorcs are in warzones. You called sorcs "farming targets." If that isn't qqing about the class, I don't know what is.

I do not min/max my gear because I do not have the time to spend farming or being farmed. I use the tools that I am given. Apparently, you and the rest that swap out mods/enhancements and whatever else cannot function in a WZ without finding short cuts to increase stats. A true player uses what they have to their advantage, not cheat, or use some kind of exploit to increase what was never intended to do in the first place. It is players such as your selves that purposefully change the curve of competition for your own self-gratification and aggrandizement.

So much lunacy here. Hard to know where to start. I guess I'll start with this... Equating min/maxing gear to cheating or using exploits is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on the forums.

I never said I was the end all of PvP. I merely said I do quite well in warzones with a madness spec. I never claimed I was dominating ranked warzones or that I never get beat or any other such nonsense. I just happened to disagree with your blanket statement that Sorcs are a "farming target." If you are a farming target, you aren't very good. It's that simple. There are numerous Sorcs out there that are constantly at the top of the leaderboards. If you can't manage that, look into changing your spec or changing your tactics.

I don't think SoonerJBD or Xenobia think they are gods. Generally when I see them post on the forums they are trying to give advice or at least correct people when they are mistaken. You can tell alone from their posts that they know the class and how to play. At the very least they are more knowledgeable than most of the players that post here and you shouldn't be so condescending just because they have a more educated and experienced opinion than yourself.

When someone opens their mouth and shouts, L2FP as an answer, then they get no respect from me regardless of their experience or knowledge in whatever game they involve themself in. I have no respect for anyone that treats people by demeaning them by calling them "bad players" or whatever FOTM name they want to use on them. Respect flows two ways. You don't give respect; you damn sure will not get it especially from me. If I come across condescending, TFB. Maybe you can direct that broad paint brush at those who berate others by telling them they are bad players or L2FP. Either way, you're no better than they are to turn a blind eye to their actions and focus in on what I said to call him to the carpet for acting like a rectum opening.

I'm just not sure what other way to put it. If I tell someone on an internet forum they're wrong, do they listen? NO. They list hundreds of excuses as to why I'm wrong, an anomaly, a noob, what have you. Look at that augment thread for example...even though a couple of us have clearly shown why wp is better than power, he won't change and he will keep calling us tards.

The easiest and most effective way to get through to people is just to say L2P, i have done it, you can too. Even if just a handful of sorcs/sages per server are successful as dps, at least you have something to aspire to in-game. It can be done. You can play better. We need minor adjustments but not a total class overhaul as the majority of posters would have you believe.

On another note, I agree with you, Depreva. Hybrid or madness would be much better 1v1 as we've discussed in-game before. I'm just fond of lightning and I really do believe it's better versus smashers than madness.

This entire thread is a giant group cry about how terrible sorcs are in warzones. You called sorcs "farming targets." If that isn't qqing about the class, I don't know what is.

Then cry to BW that people are complaining so much that it hurts your feelings and makes you uncomfortable. I don't want to hear it. My original post was my acknowledgement of the problem for 31+ spec Sorcerers. Nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't a whine or a complaint. It simply stated what I did as an alternative to make my DPS sorcerer more viable in my server's WZs. If that's too much for you to understand, then I don't know what to tell you. That's your problem to deal with comprehension, not mine.

So much lunacy here. Hard to know where to start. I guess I'll start with this... Equating min/maxing gear to cheating or using exploits is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on the forums.

You are oblivious to the meaning of what I stated. The developers of this game designed the armor, mods, and enhancements for a specific reason and purposed them to fit their designs for play. You and the rest do not accept this "because you know better than they," by removing these items and replacing them with something to gain an advantage that was never intended to happen. That's called exploiting. If you and the rest think they know so much more about game developing than those involved, submit your resume and seek a job to take over PvP so you can show them how it is supposed to be...according to your vast experience in developing and game design. I know game design and developing. I spent 12 years doing it. There is an inherit balance put there for a reason. By min/max the designs outside of what is there throws an imbalance and makes a dramatic shift in the competitive curve that should not be there. You would know this if you had experience in developing game mechanics. However, you do not care about the effects on the results and what you can gain from it by cheating the system in giving your toon an advantage that was not meant to have.

BTW, I am using fully augmented (Advanced Willpower) WH Forcer Master Gear and EWH belt/bracers, I have 865 damage bonus for force power and 512 healing bonus as a DPS Sorcerer. An additional 35 points does not amount to much of anything. My Crit with buff is 35% and my Surge is 73%. I hit with critical hits 90%+ of the time when I hit someone and a 100% when my procs are up or I activate Reckless. I do not need to exploit anything to get it there. My character is where it's supposed to be based on the designed gear by the developers. I use that to my advantage. Min/Maxing gear is for those who cannot use the existing tools they are given because they cannot stand being "just like everyone else." Ask yourself this, what is the effect of min/maxing gear on the overall picture in PvP? What does it do to the competitive curve and balance between classes that are not min/max? Finally, what would say if BM said, all armor/mods/enhancements no longer offer bonuses because they are mix-matched for min/max gear? You’d scream bloody murder now, wouldn’t you?

I never said I was the end all of PvP. I merely said I do quite well in warzones with a madness spec. I never claimed I was dominating ranked warzones or that I never get beat or any other such nonsense. I just happened to disagree with your blanket statement that Sorcs are a "farming target." If you are a farming target, you aren't very good. It's that simple. There are numerous Sorcs out there that are constantly at the top of the leaderboards. If you can't manage that, look into changing your spec or changing your tactics.

Your recent condescending and self-promoting postings says otherwise. On Jedi Covenant, Sorcerers/Sages are prime targets that everyone seeks out. They are the easiest to kill, thus easiest to earn medals from. This is especially true when you have 3 or 4 smashers hunting in a pack. When you die, they all receive those flashing medal notifications! So don’t try to tell me Sorcerers or Sages for that matter, are not easy targets for farming medals. Luckily, I can stand toe-to-toe with a smasher or any other player 1 on 1 and hold my own. Today, I faced a Guardian that could not kill me so he disengaged and sought out someone else. His mistake, I killed him. Later, that same Guardian came at me on a node with a friend, a Sentinel. Both were smashers. I was able to fend them off, killing the Guardian when help arrived to finish off the Sentinel.

Before obtaining all my gear, I couldn’t last 3 strikes from a Sentinel or punches from a Scoundrel. Now I stand a chance killing them 1 v 1. Anything more than that is up to chance. What’s really important to note, had I been a 31+ spec lightning that would not have happened. By using 20/21 spec, I have the ability to take big hits, and deliver solid damage on the move. This is how the Lightning tree should be now. You can disagree with that, that’s fine, but I am not the only one who feels this way about that tree. I know how to play my class. I have developed tactics to use based on my hybrid design. My military experience helps me in adapting my fighting and counter. It’s taken months for me to really learn the intimate details of using a Sorcerer in PvP and how to survive long enough to make a difference.

Furthermore, I could care less if you have 1 million in DPS. If you only have 5 medals, then you are not working with the team. Medals mean more to me than scoring high DPS. In certain warzones I top off at 370k+ dps with 120k+ heal. In others it's less. However, my medal count is 8+ 8/10 times. Why, because I support the team in achieving the objectives in one form or the other. When spec'd pure lightning, I could not achieve any of those numbers dps or medals simply because of the inherit use of casting/channeling being interrupted, stunned, or both. That's what matters most. Obtaining medals for objectives means more commendations. Having the highest in DPS doesn't guarantee you more medals. It only means you were playing a death match. Therein is the difference between you and I. I'm a team player and do what I can to help the team, even if it means I do not get the highest dps score or the most medals. In the end, it is the win that counts, period.

Then cry to BW that people are complaining so much that it hurts your feelings and makes you uncomfortable. I don't want to hear it. My original post was my acknowledgement of the problem for 31+ spec Sorcerers. Nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't a whine or a complaint. It simply stated what I did as an alternative to make my DPS sorcerer more viable in my server's WZs. If that's too much for you to understand, then I don't know what to tell you. That's your problem to deal with comprehension, not mine.

Your complaining neither hurts my feelings nor makes me uncomfortable. I tried to politely give you advice. I told you to try a Madness build. You replied that you have "read enough" to know that it is a force management nightmare. I explained that it wasn't, that I use to to great effect along with many others. Rather than try it, you dismissed the advice out of hand and continued to complain that we are easy kills and farming targets.

You are oblivious to the meaning of what I stated. The developers of this game designed the armor, mods, and enhancements for a specific reason and purposed them to fit their designs for play. You and the rest do not accept this "because you know better than they," by removing these items and replacing them with something to gain an advantage that was never intended to happen. That's called exploiting. If you and the rest think they know so much more about game developing than those involved, submit your resume and seek a job to take over PvP so you can show them how it is supposed to be...according to your vast experience in developing and game design. I know game design and developing. I spent 12 years doing it. There is an inherit balance put there for a reason. By min/max the designs outside of what is there throws an imbalance and makes a dramatic shift in the competitive curve that should not be there. You would know this if you had experience in developing game mechanics. However, you do not care about the effects on the results and what you can gain from it by cheating the system in giving your toon an advantage that was not meant to have.

OK, now I am calling BS. There is no way, based on your comments, that you have any concept of game design, let alone experience doing it. If they didn't intend for you to mix and match armorings and mods, they wouldn't give you the option. It's not exploiting. And calling it such is just so mind-numbingly ridiculous that it becomes hard to take you seriously. They gave you the tools to mix and match mods and armorings. If you aren't doing that, you aren't using all the tools at your disposal. No one is downloading third-party software and hacking the game to switch out mods. If you don't want to min/max, fine. You don't need to min/max to succeed in regular warzones. I haven't min/maxed my Sorc, and I do just fine. But calling it an exploit... that is just beyond ridiculous.

The rest of your comments are just rambling, so I don't really know how to address them. On the one hand, you claim Sorcs are easy to kill and farming targets, then you brag about how great you are. So which is it? If sorcs are such easy targets, how is it that you manage to rise above and kill every Guardian and Sentinel you run across?

Not going to quote, since thats one big wall of text, but respectfully ghost, you are dead wrong about devs gear tuning.

1st - EVEN if it was well itemnized, you'd still be better off swaping some alacrity for surge in a madness-based spec versus a lightning one.

2nd - its not itemnized for best results, and devs know it. They WANT you to rebuy some pieces, to fine tune your stat, get that edge by grinding it to your satisfaction. Good exemple that comes in mind is the BH PvE black hole force healer gloves. Heavy endurance gloves for a dps. In PvE..

Its not cheating, nor is it exploiting, or there would be NO mods extracts. Thats a bit, like modding your gun to your taste in a shooter, or tuning your car in a race game. You CAN use the stock version. Chance are someone who spent 2 hours playing with the settings will eat you if he can correctly uses that edge he created. In MMOs, thats YOUR character.

If you had mostly great gear within 2 weeks, chance are you'd get bored fast.

 

You are oblivious to the meaning of what I stated. The developers of this game designed the armor, mods, and enhancements for a specific reason and purposed them to fit their designs for play. You and the rest do not accept this "because you know better than they," by removing these items and replacing them with something to gain an advantage that was never intended to happen. That's called exploiting. If you and the rest think they know so much more about game developing than those involved, submit your resume and seek a job to take over PvP so you can show them how it is supposed to be...according to your vast experience in developing and game design. I know game design and developing. I spent 12 years doing it. There is an inherit balance put there for a reason. By min/max the designs outside of what is there throws an imbalance and makes a dramatic shift in the competitive curve that should not be there. You would know this if you had experience in developing game mechanics. However, you do not care about the effects on the results and what you can gain from it by cheating the system in giving your toon an advantage that was not meant to have.

 

BTW, I am using fully augmented (Advanced Willpower) WH Forcer Master Gear and EWH belt/bracers, I have 865 damage bonus for force power and 512 healing bonus as a DPS Sorcerer. An additional 35 points does not amount to much of anything. My Crit with buff is 35% and my Surge is 73%. I hit with critical hits 90%+ of the time when I hit someone and a 100% when my procs are up or I activate Reckless. I do not need to exploit anything to get it there. My character is where it's supposed to be based on the designed gear by the developers. I use that to my advantage. Min/Maxing gear is for those who cannot use the existing tools they are given because they cannot stand being "just like everyone else." Ask yourself this, what is the effect of min/maxing gear on the overall picture in PvP? What does it do to the competitive curve and balance between classes that are not min/max? Finally, what would say if BM said, all armor/mods/enhancements no longer offer bonuses because they are mix-matched for min/max gear? You’d scream bloody murder now, wouldn’t you?

 

Sniper here lurking your thread with my popcorn. Seriously. I'm literally eating kettle corn while laughing at the ridiculousnous of this thread. Especially the post I quoted.

This is the EXACT reason why the devs should NEVER base class changes off of the forums. People like you are the reason why classes and games get ruined. If you hnest to God believe what I just quoted, it is time to uninstall the game and go to Pong.

But please. Keep posting. You are providing me much entertainment while I am here bored at work lol.

EDIT: But one serious question though. If the devs never intended for min/maxing to occur, why did they make mods removable in the first place? I'll wait for your answer.

WOW

the direction of the thread has gone from bad to lol-worthy

i know right?

and you wonder why good players respond so negatively to people like the OP

Try madness. It is more mobile and relies less on casted abilities, which is why lightning sucks so hard in PvP.

madness isnt good still. it allows for overall damage but the problem is PVP is based on burst damage which we have none of

madness isnt good still. it allows for overall damage but the problem is PVP is based on burst damage which we have none of

I roll Madness in PvP and do quite well with it. You aren't going to get 6k crits. If that is what you want, you need to roll a Marauder and go with the derp-smash spec. But we can put out quite a lot of damage with Madness. Dot everyone, Death Field on cooldown, kite melee classes and use your roots and stuns and KB to get yourself out of trouble.

There are no good players in this game, the skill cap is so damn low that if you have ever been competitive in any serious game (Street Fighter, Starcraft, Halo, etc.) you will reach the skill cap within a week or so of playing. The difference is always going to be gear and team makeup. The vast majority of people that say they are "good" players generally travel in groups with full optimized gear and voice chat with most of their success coming against PUGs. There is no ladder or tournament system in place, and likely there never will be.

There is generally a lot of attrition in MMOs because people begin to realize how shallow the gameplay is, and move on. I can't believe STS is still around, I'd expect they'd move on like everyone else always does. That is why the names of groups are always changing and most people have no idea who these other people are, they rarely play each other and new groups pop up every few months while old groups die.

If you have done any analysis of competitive gameplay you can already tell on paper what is going to be stronger especially in MMO PVP. Sorc/Sage is one of the weaker classes and it's been a pretty long time now.

What I find funny is when you see Sorc/Sage complaint threads someone always comes in and insists they own with it. Meanwhile in the Mara/Sent threads people come in insisting those classes are so easy to shut down and they say how they always lose. Biofail probably sees that and thinks "oh, these Sorc/Sage are clearly overpowered since they dominate so much, clearly we must buff SK/JW to compete!" and then that's all they ever do.

It's kind of lame but you really can't use Sorc/Sage for DPS or Merc/Commando either. Unless you're getting carried by a strong group that is, in which case you can stand back and free cast and such. Still it's nowhere near ideal, as even the guy in this thread who was trying to brag admits he'd do more damage as PT. Why intentionally gimp yourself?

Some of us enjoy playing the class and enjoy a challenge. I personally couldn't stand to play a powertech and I never will be able to.

The majority will always gravitate to what the easiest and best results are for the least amount of time committed; whether that is Powertech, Smash jugg or any future FOTM OP spec. It is true in this game, it is true in fighting games, and it is true in shooters. I have played enough games with competitive interest to see this happen time and time again. Any option that takes more effort to be successful with, even if equally or more viable to easier options will always be less popular.

I prefer feeling like I actually earned my kills because I played the match-up right, not because my class can have good results regardless or the amount of thought I put into my actions.

I'm not gimping myself. I've lost 10 times in ranked, and none were due to dps issues. We always had more dps than every team we faced. One loss came in a civil war where a new person we were trying out got ninja capped on. Another loss came in a novare where we were too obsessed with dps and lost the clicking battle. The rest came in huttball since it took us awhile to find a great strat against the other good teams since we didn't run with a jugg. Admittedly, if I had been a smash jugg then we wouldn't have had as many huttball problems...but being some other FOTM wouldn't have prevented my other losses. Even though, most smash juggs/maras don't know how to play huttball like their class was designed for.

And of course good players run with other good players, what kind of point are you trying to make? An 800k pt couldn't carry a team of *******. 3 amazing pts couldn't carry 5 average players either. I like my sorc, and I perform well above average even if I could perform more easily as some fotm. Besides, fotm change so much and only baddies who rely on those crutches reroll that often.

I love players who try to compare mmo skill to starcraft or some fps. LOL I POINT AND CLICK AND CAN SHEWT YOU LOLZ. MMO skill comes from understanding all the classes and being able to think a few moves ahead in any situation, not to mention having high awareness of multiple things going on around you. Is it impossibly hard? No, but there are only a handful of great players per class per server...so obviously it's too hard for most. I will just assume you're an average to above average player.

To add to what depreva said...playing a non-fotm is more challenging and more rewarding when you can succeed where the majority can't. Buffs and nerfs happen all the time so it's better to play a class or spec you truly enjoy and learn to maximize it whenever stuff changes. It all just comes down to e-cred but that's the only thing you can get out of an mmo anyway.

I think a major problem here ( and god knows I am no elite) is that the casual player get smashed to pieces instantly if they try to run the specialized full specs some of the experts say have given them good results.

If you don't have a good guild , if you don't run pre-mades, you'll never have to worry about RWZ to begin with. The problem can be as bad in unrated , especially with packs of smashtards backed up by a pair of good healers and a pair of snipers/gunslingers to burn down anyone who doesn't get smashed to paste.

If I understand correctly, there really seems to be three camps. One says "you can't be competitive unless you roll hybrid and and that means the class sucks and needs a fix". One says, "you can be very competitive in full spec if you're geared and you know what you're doing", and the final group seems to be saying "all sorcs are weaksauce and need heavy buffs".

I think the third group's arguments are invalid...but I also think the experienced players saying "l2p and full spec is fine" are underestimating (or don't care) about the effect it has on casuals.

Would modest improvements to survivability really make the class OP?

May i just say i tried, for pvp esp, all manner of specs and hybrids and pve and pvp but in the end ive chosen to turn back to basically full healing the same setup i use in ops. I enjoy it more and at the end of the day i want to enjoy the very most i can.

Bubble stun on group like this lolslam are rubbish and i wish we'd all stay away but in the end its all about how much you enjoy it and if you lose the " i really want to win absolutely every pvp match and settle for half and half not including premades maybe" you would settle for just being happy and doing your part and what will be will be.

Full healing brother