Merc healers to Merc dps all benefit from the same stats, which means easier regearing than the example you had. My point had less to do with regearing, and more to do with the issues of invalid items in slots and whatnot. We're talking a lot of technical difficulty either way. Why not allow players to use the mechanics from other classes?

using mechanics from other classes is not the issue we are discussing here - you are just trying for a slippery slope argument that completely doesn't fit. changing over all the flags of the entire story and companions is the issue. there are degrees of technical difficulty.

AC swap puts most of the burden on the shoulders of the player. it wouldn't take much coding to make that choice temporary instead of permanent. it will require changing NOTHING else on a part of bioware. and on a part of player? very little. invalid items in slots? just go into your bags, the way going preferred without artifact unlock works now. or getting HK on a character under lvl 50. they may have those items temporarily equipped, but they don't really work and once you unequip them, you cannot equip them back. the technology is already in game.

base class swap? the burden is mostly on bioware shoulders, and the only easy way to do it is just to reset and entire story... which makes the whole change over mostly pointless, since you'd have to play all the way through from scratch and the only advantage you MIGHT have is playing through gray quests and being able to skip more side quests..

using mechanics from other classes is not the issue we are discussing here - you are just trying for a slippery slope argument that completely doesn't fit. changing over all the flags of the entire story and companions is the issue. there are degrees of technical difficulty.

 

AC swap puts most of the burden on the shoulders of the player. it wouldn't take much coding to make that choice temporary instead of permanent. it will require changing NOTHING else on a part of bioware. and on a part of player? very little. invalid items in slots? just go into your bags, the way going preferred without artifact unlock works now. or getting HK on a character under lvl 50. they may have those items temporarily equipped, but they don't really work and once you unequip them, you cannot equip them back. the technology is already in game.

 

base class swap? the burden is mostly on bioware shoulders, and the only easy way to do it is just to reset and entire story... which makes the whole change over mostly pointless, since you'd have to play all the way through from scratch and the only advantage you MIGHT have is playing through gray quests and being able to skip more side quests..

Just talking about swapping mechanics here, not the story and companions.

The swap between one AC's mechanics and one's class mechanics would both require:

1. Illegal gear to be deslotted

2. New skills to be bought and old ones disposed of

Which makes them very much comparable. Is there any reason a mercenary shouldn't be able to dual-wield vibroswords?

*EDIT

Also, I'm not trying to make a slippery slope argument. I'm genuinely arguing that it makes more sense to either maintain mechanical integrity of each AC, or to allow everyone to use whatever combat mechanics they want. To allow only partial freedom for switching a character's combat mechanics is arbitrary.

Merc healers to Merc dps all benefit from the same stats, which means easier regearing than the example you had. My point had less to do with regearing, and more to do with the issues of invalid items in slots and whatnot. We're talking a lot of technical difficulty either way. Why not allow players to use the mechanics from other classes?

The technical issues regarding gear differences can be addressed with adaptive gear and gear kits as part of the AC Change feature.

For example, if someone decided to change a Juggernaut to a Marauder, the "AC Change Token" would contain a set of orange adaptive gear and a secondary lightsaber.

This is similar to the kit you receive ( lightsaber, generator, assault cannon, etc ) when you first select an AC, or the speeder pilot token you receive when purchasing a mount from the Cartel Market.

I am not commenting one way or the other on the change but I will say something about the differences.

I have a sage (healer) and a shadow (dps) and they play very differently.

One thing a shadow has stealth and some of the attacks need to be used from stealth and that is not something you can figure out without learning the skills and working with your character.

Sage for a healer you need to be aware of your force management or you will run out of force and thereby negate your ability to heal and that can make a difference in a flashpoint on whether someone dies or stays alive.

Yes we have problems in group pickups now but do we know whether doing this would make it worse? No idea and I will not guess. For me it is not problem because I rarely run in groups as I do most everything with my guild.

The problem I see and something that may need to be taken into consideration is for the most part the stats can be very different but will a player that just switched AC wait to run a hard mode if he or she doesn't have the correct mods or will they get into a group and expect the group to carry them without them at least attempting to replace some of the items. They also would need to be upfront with the group about just changing their AC but how many would?

I waited until I had the proper gear to start doing hardmodes even though my guild didn't mind but I wanted to be able to do my part not hinder them.

These are things that need to be consider before and if they allow AC and they need to make it where they can't keep changing AC at a drop of a hat just because something didn't work the way someone wanted it to. Some people quit when things don't go their way instead of trying to learn what they did wrong or they want to pass the blame to someone else.

Like I said I don't care either way but there are pros and cons on both sides and it needs to be examine and if they allow them to do this then it needs to have a cooldown and I would say two months not one because maybe by giving it a two month cooldown someone might actually take the time to figure out what they did wrong instead of just switching when something goes wrong.

Just my ideas and opinion.

Have a good day.

The issue isn't one of regearing, its one of technical side. The argument being made was that swapping class mechanics is too technically difficult, but even swapping ACs would have technical difficulties. Namely illegal gear in slots and skill leveling.

The slots are emptied back into inventory and the games tracks what rank abilities are and if they are active or not (something I suspect it may already be capable of if you look at the way trainers list abilities available)

I'm always wary of arm-chair generals/ programmers but that surely wouldn't be much of an issue compared to untangling the myriad of story choices and their impact as you level.

[Edit] It's not that the swapping of class mechanics is difficult it's the data tracking that follows the choices you've made in your story with both NPCs and Companions. This data tracking has also been mentioned as the technical hurdle behind the restriction on gender swapping.

The slots are emptied back into inventory and the games tracks what rank abilities are and if they are active or not (something I suspect it may already be capable of if you look at the way trainers list abilities available)

I'm always wary of arm-chair generals/ programmers but that surely wouldn't be much of an issue compared to untangling the myriad of story choices and their impact as you level.

And we can take care of the mechanical issues of swapping class mechanics the same way. No need to swap stories.

A mercenary doesn't need to become a sith marauder or sniper. He just needs to be allowed to use vibroswords or sniper rifles.

Which makes them very much comparable. Is there any reason a mercenary shouldn't be able to dual-wield vibroswords?

There really isn't any reason, and a point I have made many times before hoping that Bioware introduce new Advanced Classes that allow for exactly this type of variation and customisation.

Of course Bounty Hunters don't use vibroswords they use techblades

And we can take care of the mechanical issues of swapping class mechanics the same way. No need to swap stories.

 

A mercenary doesn't need to become a sith marauder or sniper. He just needs to be allowed to use vibroswords or sniper rifles.

In essence I see this as the same thing as introducing new Advanced Classes, which I'm not opposed to.

I've ran with enough "tanks" in dps gear and dps spec who just put a tanking stance on (sometimes) and think they could tank to be aware that nothing will change.

I both dps and heal on my sorc. its very VERY different and I still don't have a hang of her rotation as lightning comfortably enough to do anything serious on her (I leveled her as a healer, and up until recently 95% of the time, played her as a healer). I don't even know where to begin with madness, its a complete blank to me. but I have an option to learn.

incidentally, my jugg feels a lot more similar to my sentinel when I dps on him. much smaller learning curve than I thought. switching my vanguard from tanking to dps was more challenging. and that's taking into account that abilities between factions have different names and different icons.

I have no clue how to properly dps on my operative. i leveled her as a healer and I play her as a healer. when I do deal damage, (becasue sometimes even as a healer, you still need to help out, and plus it gets me extra medals in pvp) I mostly just randomly grenade, dot and shank - more to interrupt someone trying to cap and objective than anything else, really. this will NOT work if I would take her full dps and tried to play it as a main role. I'd have to relearn.

need to relearn your character is already in game. hell, with ability to level to 55 entirely through galactic star fighter, its possible to hit 55 without EVER playing your actual character and knowing anything about how any of their specs work. leveling a character is no guarantee of knowing how to play that character. with or without AC swapping. just saying.

P.S. adding new mechanics and specializations to existing classes could be very interesting actualy. would still prefer if there were at least SOME ability limitations (for example - bounty hunters shouldn't be able to use force abilities, legacy force abilities are bad enough, but at least there's some semblance of trying to make them "appear" more tech rather than downright force - but bigger variety of tech abilities and playstyles? why the heck not?)

And we can take care of the mechanical issues of swapping class mechanics the same way. No need to swap stories.

 

A mercenary doesn't need to become a sith marauder or sniper. He just needs to be allowed to use vibroswords or sniper rifles.

Something along the lines of a metaclass is an interesting concept, but way beyond the scope of this thread.

As for the gearing issues:

The technical issues regarding gear differences can be addressed with adaptive gear and gear kits as part of the AC Change feature.

For example, if someone decided to change a Juggernaut to a Marauder, the "AC Change Token" would contain a set of empty orange adaptive gear and a secondary lightsaber.

This is similar to the kit you receive ( lightsaber, generator, assault cannon, etc ) when you first select an AC, or the speeder pilot token you receive when purchasing a mount from the Cartel Market.

The problem I see and something that may need to be taken into consideration is for the most part the stats can be very different but will a player that just switched AC wait to run a hard mode if he or she doesn't have the correct mods or will they get into a group and expect the group to carry them without them at least attempting to replace some of the items. They also would need to be upfront with the group about just changing their AC but how many would?

 

These are things that need to be consider before and if they allow AC and they need to make it where they can't keep chaning AC at a drop of a hat just because something didn't work the way someone wanted it to. Some people quit when things don't go their way instead of trying to learn what they did wrong or they want to pass the blame to someone else.

I actually disagree that playstyle generally would deter one from making the switch because they didn't know what they were doing. This can affect some that switch, but a good player would learn their new specialization through both research, and play. Dulfy has guides from some of the top players in the game for each specialization. This may be because I have played MMOs for years, and have had to switch between a variety of specs while running heroic raids in WOW.

Typically when I leveled a new class that I plan on running through difficult end-game, I learn everything there is to know about the class. To use an example, I leveled up a MW Monk back when MOP first came out. Mistweaver is the healing specialization and had unique mechanics for the spec. I researched what stats were necessary, the priority rotation, and different tricks of the specialization itself that were useful. Then as I was running around in-game running normal dungeons to get the feel for healing, I was able to test some of the research out. I found out what worked (Use Renewing Mist on CD, keep Jade Serpent Statue up, and channel Soothing Mist especially when you need to pop instant heals for Enveloping Mist, and Surging Mist.) and what didn't (DPSing in melee did not give off good heals. It was much weaker than Smite healing on a Disc Priest.). Once I gained enough confidence that I knew my class inside and out, I ran hard mode dungeons, and raids. The advantage? Mistweaver Monks weren't typically around at the start for obvious reasons. When other players saw my hps through Recount on fights in raids, they couldn't believe how well I was doing in the gear I was in. In LFR, I was asked by other MW Monks on how to play the class because I would be tripling their hps in less gear. I was able to figure out tricks for each boss fight that always put me as one of the top healers even though my gear was terrible compared to the others. (I'm amazed I even remember some of this stuff, I quit like 9 months ago, lol.)

Now I will accept and understand that most players won't do this. It's a lot of work, and if you didn't like playing said AC for the first thirty levels, you won't even care about end-game. This is probably more along the lines of a regular raider that needs to help out their regular group. However, this is one reason why I disagree that class mechanics and learning curve would disrupt groups. There is a few players that would need to learn, and could cause these problems, but overall a good player knows what is expected of them, and knows that changing their specialization will be dramatic in order to benefit instead of hindering their groups.

What if the class story and companions were retained, but you simply switch mechanics? Have a mercenary dual-wielding vibroswords.

The big problem I see with this is that it WOULD impact me with PvP. The Class a player is plays a HUGE factor in how I fight them. If my opponent was listed as a "Mercenary" but the guy was actually an "Operative", I'd cry foul seen him cloak out. If his "Class" changed to whatever his new AC was, it would again have NO impact on me and my playstyle whatsoever, so I wouldn't be opposed to this ever becoming a reality.

Having said that...I am not advocating for complete Class swapping in any way. I don't support it because I don't feel it's even remotely close to the same thing as swapping AC's. I'm not entirely against it either, but I don't believe in it strongly enough to argue for it at all. If it happened, I'd be fine with it and utilize it as much as I utilize AC swapping (not at all), I'd simply be happy for the player who DID use it and found new enjoyment in the game because of it.

My whole reason for being in favor of AC swapping is I believe in making players happy. More options to allow players the freedom to enjoy this game benefit us all long term.

My whole reason for being in favor of AC swapping is I believe in making players happy. More options to allow players the freedom to enjoy this game benefit us all long term.

I agree 100%.

An AC Change would provide players with more choices. Maintaining player interest is a key component of any game, and this feature would provide that.

Whether it's a leveling character that is reconsidering his AC selection, a returning player that has interest in the alternate AC of an abandoned character, or a bored veteran player that would like to experience a change in play style, this feature would offer that choice, as well as the possibility of additional revenue for the game.

I agree 100%.

 

An AC Change would provide players with more choices. Maintaining player interest is a key component of any game, and this feature would provide that.

 

Whether it's a leveling character that is reconsidering his AC selection, a returning player that has interest in the alternate AC of an abandoned character, or a bored veteran player that would like to experience a change in play style, this feature would offer that choice, as well as the possibility of additional revenue for the game.

Perfectly said!!!

They have already spoken though - page 1...the very first post here. This thread didn't start out asking IF it should happen...it started out asking WHEN it would.

 

 

I too would like to know when it's coming

Except that the devs have NOT spoken, despite your claims that they have.

Show me a quote from the devs stating that class swapping ( AC swapping) WILL be implemented and we can worry about "when". Until the devs state that they will happen, we have to worry about WHETHER they will happen.

I have yet to see even one quote from the devs stating that they WILL be implemented. Even the over year old quote you posted does NOT say they WILL be implemented, only that they will LIKELY be implemented. Will be and will likely be are NOT the same thing.

WoW's Level 90 boost is also included with the purchase of their 6.0 expansion. I'll ask you a similar question - would you be comfortable with a free Level 50 ( previous level cap boost ) for everyone that purchases ROTHC?

 

As for Rift's soul system, is it very much comparable to Advanced Classes in SWTOR. You select your souls while leveling your class which provide access to the soul trees. These can be changed at anytime.

 

Let's imagine a world if Rift did not allow Soul swapping, and people requested it:

 

Using your logic:

• You didn't level with the Shaman soul, so you won't know how to play it at cap.
  
• Bladedancers are overpowered, everyone will FOTM to one if they allow soul swapping
  
• I leveled two Clerics, if you want a Shaman soul, then level another Cleric.
  

 

Yet here we are, Soul Swapping exists, and does not ruin that game. Rift Souls and TOR Advanced Classes are very similar features. TOR is ( for now ) more restrictive. The developers should reevaluate this design decision, as myself and others feel it would be a great addition to the game.

 

To claim that this game was not designed around Advanced Class swapping is a false statement.

 

I recall in beta the developers changing their stance on it several times. Before release ( around Nov 2011 ) they indicated there would be an AC change feature with an increasing cost as your character gained levels. The last communication from the developers on this issue is that it would "likely happen".

With a purchase of RotHC? No. You do not get a boost to 90 for purchasing any of the previous or even the current expansion in WoW. You only get the boost with purchase of the upcoming expansion.

Now if BW were to release a new expansion with a raised level cap and offered a free boost to 55 with the purchase of the NEW expansion, and offered boosts to 55 on the CM for 8000 coins (about $60), then tghat would be a fair comparison.

If I recall correctly, even in BETA you could not initially change your AC, thus indicating that the original design (from the ground up) intent was for it to be permanent. They later made some statements that they would allow AC changes, but due to feedback on the forums and the results of polls conducted by BW, they decided to keep the AC's as a permanent decision. They also made many changes to the interface of the selection process and added multiple warnings from multiple NPC's that the choice was PERMANENT.

Once you start down a path, forever will it control your destiny.

That about sums it up.

 

There's no impact on anyone else if someone wants to switch their AC.

 

There's a possible minor impact on EA/Bioware's bottom line. Anyone who desperately wants to switch a Shadow to a Sage may potentially not play as long as they would if they had to re-level, but EA/Bioware have shown little concern at all about allowing people to speed their way through the game for cash.

It will also affect BW's bottom line with the loss of subscribers if they allow class changes. You can try to fool yourself all you want, but allowing class changes WILL cost them subs. As I said, only BW can make the determination if the possibility of revenue from those who might pay again if they allow class changes is worth the risk of losing those ARE paying now and would no longer be doing so if they allow class changes.

The effect to EA/Bioware's bottom line only applies if the player is a subscriber. With the hybrid model the length of time someone spends playing a character and not paying a subscription also has a minor impact on the bottom line.

 

Ideally what you want to achieve is a sense that time invested in any character you play is not wasted time. I would imagine the potential for a preferred/f2p player to use the AC swap function to remain playing their character is higher than them going back to level one and levelling up an alt.

I'm just curious, but if the player is F2P or preferred and NOT paying a subscription, what difference does it make how long they play if they are NOT paying the subscription?

Even if they offer class changes on the CM, the revenue that they would receive from a F2P or preferred who wishes to change their class would NOT be equal to the loss of recurring revenue from a single subscription.

Once you start down a path, forever will it control your destiny.

Hey now, Anakin faction changed twice, and he did an AC Change from Guardian to Sentinel while in combat! ( Haxx imo ).

With a purchase of RotHC? No. You do not get a boost to 90 for purchasing any of the previous or even the current expansion in WoW. You only get the boost with purchase of the upcoming expansion.

 

Now if BW were to release a new expansion with a raised level cap and offered a free boost to 55 with the purchase of the NEW expansion, and offered boosts to 55 on the CM for 8000 coins (about $60), then tghat would be a fair comparison.

This is a correct and very fair comparison.

Based on that price point, what would you consider a fair price for an AC Change? $30 / 3500 Cartel Coins ( which I believe is around 3.5 Million Credits ). That feature with one month cooldown would be very reasonable in my opinion.

If I recall correctly, even in BETA you could not initially change your AC, thus indicating that the original design (from the ground up) intent was for it to be permanent. They later made some statements that they would allow AC changes, but due to feedback on the forums and the results of polls conducted by BW, they decided to keep the AC's as a permanent decision. They also made many changes to the interface of the selection process and added multiple warnings from multiple NPC's that the choice was PERMANENT.

My point is the fact they changed their stance a few times in beta, which means there isn't a massive technical hurdle to provide this feature. There are some technical challenges yes, but we addressed some of those in this thread.

some people don't enjoy playing the same story twice, just like they don't reread books or rewatch movies.

some people have very limited time to play and rather than reroll, they might just leave the game all together for something that lets them play what they do enjoy. just to name a couple. just becasue you cannot relate personally - doesn't make it invalid.

 

above was a suggestion to make it $20, limit it to 3 changes per character, and add a one month cooldown before you can change back. I'd say that takes care of "flash of the month" concerns nicely AND potentially makes bioware some profit.

For those that "don't want to do the same story twice" there are alternate means of leveling. True, they will have to do the story to get the story line companions, but this could be done once they reach max level and can faceroll the class story. There are two companions available without doing the story line. Between these two companions, any companion role could be filled, DPS, tank or heals.

Since there is NO time limit on leveling, everyone has the time to level a new character. It's not like you only have two weeks to level and your character is deleted if you don't get to level cap in that time, or that your character is stuck at whatever level they reach in those two weeks. Claiming "limited time" is simply an excuse.

If you think adding a limit of three class changes, one class change or any other limit would work, I would direct your attention to this thread and the countless others clamoring to get the current restrictions on class changes lifted or changed. I've said it before, but if you give a mouse a cookie...

novelists and directors come up with new stories to enjoy - that take a LOT less time to enjoy than leveling the same class - and movies and novels have an ending, while playing an MMO doesn't really, as you don't just abandon a character at 55, usually, you get them to 55 so that you could continue to play them at 55. but the comparison was NOT used to compare media, but rather illustrate the mindset of a person who doesn't enjoy repetitive stories.

 

last I checked its a game as well - its a hobby. and some people have limited time to enjoy their hobbies. and you are telling them basically, that they are SoL when it comes to this particular hobby, just because they made a choice before having all the information (how the class plays) and have to start over... and spend hours and hours and HOURS doing something unenjoyable, just to try the other AC. and this being a game and a hobby? WHY exactly AC is such serious business that it MUST be a permanent choice?

 

and there will always be people who complain. that's a fact of life. but those restrictions are a compromise between having NO option and having SOME option. but you'd rather have nothing that something in a middle, it seems.

Again, I point to WoW, as well as many other MMO's, in which your choose your class at CREATION. Do you get to change your class in WoW, GW2 or most other MMO's despite the fact that you make your class choice before you have all the information (how the class plays), or do you have to level a new character with the new class you want to play?

Hey now, Anakin faction changed twice, and he did an AC Change from Guardian to Sentinel while in combat! ( Haxx imo ).

 

 

 

 

This is a correct and very fair comparison.

 

Based on that price point, what would you consider a fair price for an AC Change? $30 / 3500 Cartel Coins ( which I believe is around 3.5 Million Credits ). That feature with one month cooldown would be very reasonable in my opinion.

 

 

 

My point is the fact they changed their stance a few times in beta, which means there isn't a massive technical hurdle to provide this feature. There are some technical challenges yes, but we addressed some of those in this thread.

As I have said before, I do not believe that ANY restrictions they place on class changing will make any difference. We already have a limit on the number of times you can change your class. That limit is zero, but look at this thread and the countless others clamoring for that restriction to be changed or lifted entirely.

If they put a one month cool down on them, the forums would simply have threads clamoring for the reduction of the cool down. If they charged $30, or even $40 or $60, the forums would be full of people crying for a reduction in price. If they limited it to a certain number of changes, the cries would be for that limit to be removed or changed, yet again.

If they gave an inch regarding class changes, it would never be enough, and people would demand a mile.

Again, I point to WoW, as well as many other MMO's, in which your choose your class at CREATION. Do you get to change your class in WoW, GW2 or most other MMO's despite the fact that you make your class choice before you have all the information (how the class plays), or do you have to level a new character with the new class you want to play?

Point to WoW all you want. No one is asking for their Jedi Consular to become a Jedi Knight. That is class changing. We want to be able to switch our advance class. You know, like going from a guardian to a sentinel. A Vanguard to a Commando. Its really no different then a feral druid switching to a moonkin or tree. Its no different then a enhancement shaman switching to elemental.

Again, I point to WoW, as well as many other MMO's, in which your choose your class at CREATION. Do you get to change your class in WoW, GW2 or most other MMO's despite the fact that you make your class choice before you have all the information (how the class plays), or do you have to level a new character with the new class you want to play?

I point to EQII and SWG where you could change your class. Sure enough, those other games do make you level a new character for a new class, that's true. However how many of their classes share half of their movesets and a whole skill tree? It may even be a skill tree that is useless to your class because it is only ever really balanced for your mirror (Madness sin, Lethality Op)

Just create a char of opposing gender.

Bioware RPG for gods sake, play more chars.