Make madness/balance cleansable by sorc again.

=madness has an effective counter

=makes sorc even more viable

I agree uncleansable dots was a dumb idea, madness being uncleansable only nerfed sorc cleanse and now operatives have the most effective force cleanse in evasion (only concealment should have the dot purge imo)

Lethality and pyro have a better mechanic, annihilation just needed their dots switched from physical to force type.

I agree uncleansable dots was a dumb idea, madness being uncleansable only nerfed sorc cleanse and now operatives have the most effective force cleanse in evasion (only concealment should have the dot purge imo)

Lethality and pyro have a better mechanic, annihilation just needed their dots switched from physical to force type.

Anni's DoTs being uncleansable is fine. Anni set up time is much longer than any other class, and beside a bleed/burn IS a physical effect, you can't change them without affecting all other burn/bleed effect

dots is all sorcs/sages do, thus if cleansible it makes them completely useless. Already 1st focused in ranked, this would make them worse than mercs

But only one able to cleanse sorc dot is sorc.

But only one able to cleanse sorc dot is sorc.

id say too much work and too much coding to make it doable on BW's part, thus, IMO, won't happen.

Time to go back to the good ole chain lightning/DF AOE hybrid if that ever happens.

Numbers. Numbers everywhere.

id say too much work and too much coding to make it doable on BW's part, thus, IMO, won't happen.

What planet are you from ?

Back when they could be cleansed they could only be ever cleansed by sage/sorc anyway because this is the only advanced class with a force cleanse ...

It would mean sorc / sage heal would be the only class capable of neutralizing madness/balance sin/shadow too giving them an actual purpose.

dots is all sorcs/sages do, thus if cleansible it makes them completely useless. Already 1st focused in ranked, this would make them worse than mercs

Except they were already far better than mercs before dots were made uncleanseable, before barrier buff, before self heal off the GCD, and before lolFL/CT buff.

Except they were already far better than mercs before dots were made uncleanseable, before barrier buff, before self heal off the GCD, and before lolFL/CT buff.

Not really, they were better, but that's because Mercs were completely broken. Uncleansable DoTs are necessary for a class that gets about half its damage from DoTs with a cooldown longer than cleanse. There is no effective counter-play for a Madness Sorc if all other Sorcs can cleanse. In that game Creeping Terror and Crushing Darkness become useless.

I really wish people would stop. Madness DoTs do over time what the burst specs do in 3-4 GCDs. DoTs are already easier to heal through, DoTs already give you a lot more time to react than direct damage powers. Direct Damage attacks don't have an off button, there is no reason DoTs should.

And before people rehash the same specious arguments, DoTs are just as affected by defensive cooldowns as direct damage attacks of the same damage type. DoT have NO advantage over instant direct damage powers. Uncleansable is near essential unless you are going to shift the damage profile away from three DoTs, two with significant cooldowns compared to cleanse.

Madness DoTs do over time what the burst specs do in 3-4 GCDs. DoTs are already easier to heal through

Try to outheal doublemadness and tell me again how easy that is.

This guy did over 4,3k hps in one round and yet they failed to win. And they didnt die because of hardswitches.

(http://www.twitch.tv/itchyeyes05/c/4866555)

Ranked meta changed a lot. Nowadays best thing you can do is run dotspecc and chainmezz healer.

herp derp

I propose to make Balance work more like Dirty Fighting. The ability in the skill tree that makes it uncleansable, should give your DOT's like 2 stacks instead of 1. This way, cleansing would only let you evade 50% of the damage, and a 2nd cleanse is needed to evade it totally.

This would make the sage's cleanse important again, without completely shutting down Balance.

Any thoughts?

I propose to make Balance work more like Dirty Fighting. The ability in the skill tree that makes it uncleansable, should give your DOT's like 2 stacks instead of 1. This way, cleansing would only let you evade 50% of the damage, and a 2nd cleanse is needed to evade it totally.

 

This would make the sage's cleanse important again, without completely shutting down Balance.

 

Any thoughts?

Also a very nice idea

Another nerf madness sorc thread, how refreshing.

Been a while since we had one.

I propose to make Balance work more like Dirty Fighting. The ability in the skill tree that makes it uncleansable, should give your DOT's like 2 stacks instead of 1. This way, cleansing would only let you evade 50% of the damage, and a 2nd cleanse is needed to evade it totally.

 

This would make the sage's cleanse important again, without completely shutting down Balance.

 

Any thoughts?

Not needed, people here tend to overestimate the value of cleanse. You may only remove two effects at a time, so its not like sorc dispels everything withing 1gcd.

l2protect your dots with force slow and your good to go. Even without uncleansable dots madness has tremendous potential.

When playing against double madness, out of 6 dots applied you may only cleanse two at a time, if theyre not protected.

Cleansing is not about defeating dots strength, its about having a chance to win.

Try to outheal doublemadness and tell me again how easy that is.

This guy did over 4,3k hps in one round and yet they failed to win. And they didnt die because of hardswitches.

(http://www.twitch.tv/itchyeyes05/c/4866555)

 

Ranked meta changed a lot. Nowadays best thing you can do is run dotspecc and chainmezz healer.

 

herp derp

So we want one healer to be able to deal with two DPS character's output? Seriously?

And you still didn't address the point. Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal. You just melt.

l2protect your dots with force slow and your good to go.

Force Slow - 12 sec CD

Creeping Terror - 9 sec CD

Crushing Darkness - 15 sec CD (effectively 7.5 for Assassins)

Cleanse - 4.5 sec CD

Why is this hard to understand? Cleanse NEGATES Balance/Madness. There is no "protect your DoTs," there is only "Watch your DoTs be cleansed faster than you can reapply them." You can waste another GCD applying Force Slow. You're still losing the majority of your damage. Sorcerer/Sages are even hampered in building their proc because they have to waste time reapplying when they need to be using TK Throw/Force Lightning.

When playing against double madness, out of 6 dots applied you may only cleanse two at a time, if theyre not protected.

 

Cleansing is not about defeating dots strength, its about having a chance to win.

You have a chance to win. You have the same chance as you do against any direct damage spec. You heal, use cooldowns, and CC. No one needs the addition of an off-button. DoTs have no advantage over direct damage that justifies that.

I propose to make Balance work more like Dirty Fighting. The ability in the skill tree that makes it uncleansable, should give your DOT's like 2 stacks instead of 1. This way, cleansing would only let you evade 50% of the damage, and a 2nd cleanse is needed to evade it totally.

 

This would make the sage's cleanse important again, without completely shutting down Balance.

 

Any thoughts?

My thought would be to remember the very significant differences between Dirty Fighting and Balance.

Vital Shot and Shrap Bomb have NO cooldown. They can be immediately reapplied. Plus a major purpose of those DoTs is to improve Wounding Shots where the real damage occurs.

If people want to be able to shut off Balance DoTs, I would suggest the following changes:

1) Mind Warp - removes the periodic damage from Mind Crush and applies that damage (plus the additional damage for the two additional ticks) to the instant damage portion.

2) Weaken Mind can be cleansed

3) Sever Force when cleansed leaves an uncleansable but weaker DoT on the target that still provides the damage bonus to TK Throw from Mental Scarring.

4) The bonus damage to Disturbance and Mind Crush from Presence of Mind is increased to 40%.

There. Balance ceases being totally dependent on DoTs. Somehow I don't think this would mollify anyone. Because the point is to be able to negate the spec. That's what this is all about. And that's bull.

Cleanse NEGATES Balance/Madness

No it does not. thats a fairy tail. You will never ever by no means be able to cleanse all dots, let alone negate all dmg. Youre telling fairy tails. Plus, using cleanse on CD puts a lot of pressure on the healer since he cannot heal meanwhile. Just because your numbers dont show up on the table, doesnt mean healer has no pressure.

=cleanse does not NEGATE madness, it does reduce its damage.

Lets face it, dmg is overpowered right now. Wheter we let dots be cleansable again, or dmg from the dots needs to be reduced. I`d rather have my dots be cleansable, it brings more skill to the game.

So we want one healer to be able to deal with two DPS character's output?.

Yes, i expect a healer and a tank to survive two dps. I`d like to have a ranked environment where you have to cc clever and do a hard switch to kill someone instead of herpderp dot and wait until someone dies.

The statements youre making shows that youre not familiar with group ranked around which classes should be balanced.

Just watch some of roudys latest videos and compare the difference when they play hard switch or dotderp. The former is a joy to watch as it requires much skill and a well played team. The latter is just ridicolous dotspamming until tank dies.

 

You have a chance to win

right. You also had a chance back then against double smash. Uncleansable madness is OP dmg. period. You try to protect your class, but youre not doing yourself a favor. Its OP right now, and something will change. Wheter its the dmg from the dots get reduced or they get cleansable. You choose. Id like to see them beeing cleansable, so good players can excel and protect them.

Not really, they were better, but that's because Mercs were completely broken. Uncleansable DoTs are necessary for a class that gets about half its damage from DoTs with a cooldown longer than cleanse. There is no effective counter-play for a Madness Sorc if all other Sorcs can cleanse. In that game Creeping Terror and Crushing Darkness become useless.

 

I really wish people would stop. Madness DoTs do over time what the burst specs do in 3-4 GCDs. DoTs are already easier to heal through, DoTs already give you a lot more time to react than direct damage powers. Direct Damage attacks don't have an off button, there is no reason DoTs should.

 

And before people rehash the same specious arguments, DoTs are just as affected by defensive cooldowns as direct damage attacks of the same damage type. DoT have NO advantage over instant direct damage powers. Uncleansable is near essential unless you are going to shift the damage profile away from three DoTs, two with significant cooldowns compared to cleanse.

Why is it near essential, when madness sorc was one of the most popular dps classes in 4s before all those buffs and uncleansability? CT and CD weren't useless back then, and they wouldn't be made useless if the change was reverted.

1) Madness got buffed and buffed for pve balance reasons to the point of being very overtuned in pvp. It now needs a tone down. It's not gonna be a nerf to damage, cause the devs obviously want it to be competitive in pve. Making dots cleanseable again is a good way to nerf for pvp without affecting pve.

2. CT and CD together do not comprise 50% of madness's damage.

3. There is counter-play to dot cleansing:

a. Stunning the sorc

b. Ranging the sorc from the potential cleanse target via knockbacks, pulls etc.

c. Putting CT and CD on targets other than a sorc. Hitting cleanse if you see dots on yourself is easy, but it takes considerably more effort to check a teammate's debuffs.

d. Baiting a cleanse of dots, followed by a WW on the healer or someone else, which the sorc is then unable to cleanse for the first few seconds due to its CD. This isn't a big deal, but it's there.

4. Obviously, only other sorcs can do it. That means that if the other team doesn't have a sorc, there is no change. Cleanse costs a GCD, and is force-negative (or about force-neutral if heal spec). Are you worried that if both teams run double sorc, then nothing will ever die because they will be constantly cleansing each other? Because that was never a problem before. This point is especially true considering that TTK has been steadily decreasing, and matches rarely go to acid anymore.

5. Raises skill cap. Objectively good.

6. Slightly buffs the underpowered lightning and healing specs by giving them the ability to once again have a counter to a spec whose users now litter the warzones and arenas. Nerfs an OP spec and buffs UP ones (particularly corruption).

7. Makes no sense that sins, ops, and snipers can remove force dots, but a sorcerer can't.

8. I'd be willing to compromise and make only CT uncleanseable. And/or increase the CD on cleanse, though idk if that'd be bad for pve. If so, lengthen the base cleanse CD and add CDR to the cleanse talent.

Try to outheal doublemadness and tell me again how easy that is.

This guy did over 4,3k hps in one round and yet they failed to win. And they didnt die because of hardswitches.

(http://www.twitch.tv/itchyeyes05/c/4866555)

 

Ranked meta changed a lot. Nowadays best thing you can do is run dotspecc and chainmezz healer.

 

herp derp

This.

So we want one healer to be able to deal with two DPS character's output? Seriously?

 

And you still didn't address the point. Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal. You just melt.

........... you obviously don't even ranked.

right. You also had a chance back then against double smash. Uncleansable madness is OP dmg. period. You try to protect your class, but youre not doing yourself a favor. Its OP right now, and something will change. Wheter its the dmg from the dots get reduced or they get cleansable. You choose. Id like to see them beeing cleansable, so good players can excel and protect them.

Of course, it will change. 3.0 is right around the corner. A lot will change then. It's not going to be by returning a power tuned for PvE to PvP. Sorry.

This.

 

 

 

........... you obviously don't even ranked.

You obviously didn't address the argument.

But to address yours. You're right, I don't group ranked. Even after joining a PvP guild, there's just not enough activity when I play to do it. I'm sorry, but I'm never going to agree to balancing all PvP around the least conducted activity.

You obviously didn't address the argument.

 

But to address yours. You're right, I don't group ranked. Even after joining a PvP guild, there's just not enough activity when I play to do it. I'm sorry, but I'm never going to agree to balancing all PvP around the least conducted activity.

You didn't have an argument. Arguments need warrants and evidence, not just claims. "Two direct damage DPS players don't even give you time to try and heal" is a claim. One that has already been refuted. And speaking of not addressing arguments, I have an 8 point post awaiting your response.