Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

Don't forget to also figure in utility skills like stealth, speed increases, damage avoidance, gap closer prevention, root/stun/snare prevention, etc. which can make some classes incredibly overpowered in way too many scenarios.

 

You'll have to test classes against each other, classes in co-operative group scenarios, classes in competitive group scenarios, etc. - basically figure in all the tools and factors possible - or all the so-called "balancing" will be for naught.

 

It also can't be right that many DPS classes can tank/survive better in some scenarios than some of the actual tank classes who don't even have enough DPS to scratch them anyhow.

 

Personally, I think you need to separate PVE and PVP completely. When you are targeting a player, PVP toolbars should get activated and PVE toolbars deactivated and vice versa (you should be easily able to adapt the existing "cover bar" mechanic for it). Then you balance each class, advanced class, discipline, etc. separately for PVE and PVP. Also, I'm a fan of getting rid of gear dependencies in PVP, it should be all about player skill, so just normalize the stats for each discipline.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Glzmo

Sauce? I don't remember.

They were talking about this crap how dot mdps should be top damage etc 2 or 3 years ago, I can't find source for something so old.

 

And now bringing it up as if its something new, lol.

 

Next they will tell us about their new idea for all nim bosses to drop specific loot.

Don't forget to also figure in utility skills like stealth, speed increases, damage avoidance, gap closer prevention, root/stun/snare prevention, etc. which can make some classes overpowered in some scenarios.

 

That is exactly what they aren't doing and that is also exactly what the problem is.

It's why this game has never seen, and under this mindset never will achieve, class balance.

 

put 2 clases equal in dps but one with perma snare on each hit and self heal for 3 lives and the other with nothing..but all the same dps possibility. guess who will win !!!

 

Your English is excused because your point is solid.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Evolixe

I would strongly recommend balancing around boss parses not dummy parses due to the painfully obvious fact that bosses are where it matters not dummy numbers.

Snipers are overperforming in PVP in general because they're far too hard to kill. Engineering even more so because of the plasma probe changes but that's not the point.

 

The point is that marksman parses where it's supposed to according to this post by BW, and yet it is still overperforming in PVP because it, like all the sniper specs, is too hard to kill. There are multiple MM snipers above 3K in solo ranked, they're extremely common and effective in group ranked as well, and good MM snipers regularly top DPS scoreboards simply because they have to put so little effort into dying compared to many other classes that their poor parses mean almost nothing in PVP. If it were the fact that they're a ranged burst class, you'd expect lightning to be similar. But it isn't -- it's awful.

 

I'm making a point about their decision to apparently forgo utility changes for the most part in favor of damage output. It's not necessary that you believe me about MM -- take arsenal for example. What are the odds that Arsenal won't continue to be painfully dominant in PVP if they just slightly tweak its damage output but leave the trauma regulators utility intact? To me the answer to that is extremely obvious - the odds are about zero.

 

 

 

what this guy said (I don't necessarily agree about dot specs but its beside the point)

 

lethality is garbage in PVP, marksman is top tier - enough said

 

Exactly what Doc said. MM sniper parses low but is the best solo ranked dps spec this season and if granked still existed it would be top tier there as well. There are a few MM snipers that practically ruin the q when they are on because of their strength. They are a far bigger problem than Mercs.

 

In regs MM are a little bit less of an issue but they are still over performing. I really do appreciate the devs being more open with their methods and I don't want to attack them for doing something great but I do hope they will think about more than just dps/hps when balancing. The issue with mercs and snipers are their dcds and not their dps.

 

Also, as someone who has done a lot of kiting this season one idea for fixing MM would be to take away their mobility. A tanky, area denial burst spec is not necessarily a bad thing but well played snipers are actually one of the harder classes to kite (note I said well played as most don't have a clue haha). If snipers were less mobile then their strong defense and burst would not be as much of an issue but as it is now they are actually very mobile as well. I'd rather have 2 good dps ops on me than 2 good dps snipers.

 

One funny example of the high mobility is that my MM sniper is actually a pretty good ball carrier. I often score several goals in hball with him.

Okay when i see your categories then i have to ask even more ... the tk / lightning Sage / sorc cant just simply switch target with full dps ... the main target should have shattered mind debuff for 10 % more dmg out of force attacks. This skill has up to 13 seconds cooldown ... so you HAVE to know the fight in every phase to know when to cast shattered mind , or to wait with the cast. Waiting with the cast is dps lost too. Maybe the dmg of TK is within your category of dps in a state of okay .... but this freaking little skill decides if your dmg is okay , or its not okay .... since your are not balance between disciplines i dont start to compare with others too ... but a reduce of the cooldown of this skill even with a compared dmg reduce should be doing fine. ( e.g. : lets say at the moment mind crush overall dmg , since its a dot , is 10k with 13 seconds cd .... so when reducing the cooldown by for example 50 % the dmg goes down by 50 % too. This chance would allow the TK / lightning a much better handling and less dps lost cause of the knowledge that you will need the skill 2 secs later cause you have to switch target ).

Just a general suggestion here, disregard if you like.

 

I think in this thread it would be very advantageous for us to not squabble with one another even if we disagree and leave this string purely as a response to this official release and let everyone say their peace regarding it without concern for what others may think of their opinions.

 

We have every other string to discuss things and opinions, perhaps this one we should leave solely for responses to the devs regarding this newest release on class balancing, for improved communication between players and devs on it.

 

Perhaps someone can make another strong where we can discuss it just among our selves. I have my concerns about some of it as well. I wish I would have thought to do this before writing out a whole response of my own heh.

 

Just a suggestion.

Edited June 15, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

Angry rant...

 

Yeah, basically to paraphrase my angry friend here...

 

For PVP, damage output is really pretty close. We don't notice 2.5% output damage differences in actual output, but we do notice the huge inequities in defensive capabilities. While it's nice that there are clear goals in terms of output against a stationary target, PVP and most PVE encounters do not work like a training dummy.

 

The OP-ness of many classes has to do with their ability to have Time On Target. Stun immunity, defensive abilities, cc abilities, these are some of the things that make classes OP in PVP. Example... Engi sniper which has a 75% snare on 0s cd, has stun immunity, has a DOT removal mechanism, a root, a knockback with a root, 2 hard stuns, one instant cast ranged mez, a huge heal with damage reduction, a defensive reset button.... That is significantly more than a 5% advantage over most classes... for melee classes it is closer to a 25-30% advantage.

Can I just take a moment and give kudos to the development team and the new direction the lead producer is taking the game with regards to player communication?

^^ Agreed! I think that making your balance philosophy public is a great thing. Otherwise, we're all in the dark as far as what you are trying to accomplish, and people see sustained dps variances and think "what is BW doing?!?! Why don't they fix these obvious disparities?!?"

 

I'm going to echo what others have said:

1. The +/- 5% damage spread seems like too much to me, from a PvE perspective. In operations, there are certainly some mechanics that are inherently not friendly to melee, but I don't think it's worth a 10% dps swing. Is Lightning Sorc really as good of a ranged burst damage dealer as Arsenal Merc? I don't think so. Thundering blast is pathetic compared to Heatseeker missile. Maybe I'm missing something? I know that Lightning can switch targets just as easily as Arsenal, but the big hitters are very much out of whack when you compare the two. That Heatseeker will finish off the Add before Thundering Blast will. Maybe the thought is that it is balanced out somewhat by the AOE effect from Chain Lightning?

 

Furthermore, some situations in which you really need to put out some serious dps numbers (e.g. Styrak) are not unfriendly to melee, and there is enough ramp-up time for DoT specs to be effective. So you look at Anni Mara vs Lightning Sorc and think, "I'll go with Anni Mara with the 10% dps advantage." I think that +/- 5% number needs to be evaluated.

 

2. It is taking way too long to get balance adjustments for PvP. The dominance of Arsenal / Sniper right now has nothing to do with damage output. I can appreciate the desire to collect a large amount of data before jumping to conclusions. I know that making changes too quickly makes it hard to get a good sample size of data. But how long has it been since 5.0? Does it really take that much data to determine that a ranged burst damage dealer with excessive survival tools needs some tuning for PvP? It's all about the utilities. Does Arsenal really need Trauma Regulators (heal 2 full - mostly) AND Kolto Surge (70% KO) AND Chaff Flare (absorbs next 5 Force / Tech attacks - with Decoy) AND Responsive Safeguards (reflect + heal)?

 

Now let's compare with e.g. Vengeance Jugg defensives. I won't go into it, but we all know it's not even close. Massive advantage to the ranged burst damage dealer.

 

I know that Mercs had been underpowered for a long time and they needed something from a defensive standpoint, but all that stuff went overboard. I think all they really needed was Responsive Safeguards as an anti-focus tool.

How can you honestly with a straight face tell people Viru is quasi sustained and engi is sustained. You guys have the so backwards it's not even funny.

The OP-ness of many classes has to do with their ability to have Time On Target. Stun immunity, defensive abilities, cc abilities, these are some of the things that make classes OP in PVP. Example... Engi sniper which has a 75% snare on 0s cd, has stun immunity, has a DOT removal mechanism, a root, a knockback with a root, 2 hard stuns, one instant cast ranged mez, a huge heal with damage reduction, a defensive reset button.... That is significantly more than a 5% advantage over most classes... for melee classes it is closer to a 25-30% advantage.

 

There is so much junk that interferes with ability to play a class in PVP and sometimes PVE as well and yet this "class balance" is simply about some very suspect categories of damage.

 

It sounds like bad balancing because it is.

^^ Agreed! I think that making your balance philosophy public is a great thing. Otherwise, we're all in the dark as far as what you are trying to accomplish, and people see sustained dps variances and think "what is BW doing?!?! Why don't they fix these obvious disparities?!?"

 

I'm going to echo what others have said:

1. The +/- 5% damage spread seems like too much to me, from a PvE perspective. In operations, there are certainly some mechanics that are inherently not friendly to melee, but I don't think it's worth a 10% dps swing. Is Lightning Sorc really as good of a ranged burst damage dealer as Arsenal Merc? I don't think so. Thundering blast is pathetic compared to Heatseeker missile. Maybe I'm missing something? I know that Lightning can switch targets just as easily as Arsenal, but the big hitters are very much out of whack when you compare the two. That Heatseeker will finish off the Add before Thundering Blast will. Maybe the thought is that it is balanced out somewhat by the AOE effect from Chain Lightning?

 

Furthermore, some situations in which you really need to put out some serious dps numbers (e.g. Styrak) are not unfriendly to melee, and there is enough ramp-up time for DoT specs to be effective. So you look at Anni Mara vs Lightning Sorc and think, "I'll go with Anni Mara with the 10% dps advantage." I think that +/- 5% number needs to be evaluated.

 

2. It is taking way too long to get balance adjustments for PvP. The dominance of Arsenal / Sniper right now has nothing to do with damage output. I can appreciate the desire to collect a large amount of data before jumping to conclusions. I know that making changes too quickly makes it hard to get a good sample size of data. But how long has it been since 5.0? Does it really take that much data to determine that a ranged burst damage dealer with excessive survival tools needs some tuning for PvP? It's all about the utilities. Does Arsenal really need Trauma Regulators (heal 2 full - mostly) AND Kolto Surge (70% KO) AND Chaff Flare (absorbs next 5 Force / Tech attacks - with Decoy) AND Responsive Safeguards (reflect + heal)?

 

Now let's compare with e.g. Vengeance Jugg defensives. I won't go into it, but we all know it's not even close. Massive advantage to the ranged burst damage dealer.

 

I know that Mercs had been underpowered for a long time and they needed something from a defensive standpoint, but all that stuff went overboard. I think all they really needed was Responsive Safeguards as an anti-focus tool.

 

Lightning actually has some ramp up time to be effective compared to arsenal and marksman which makes them even more inferior in addition to their laughable burst and joke sustained damage.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Dewlmenow

As for PvP, there are million other factors. There is no reason to sit here and try to list, but dps output on a non moving dummy (or ops boss) means nothing.

Theoretical or even demonstrated outputs on a dummy have nothing to do with PVP or casual daily fighting with mobs. Even when it comes to PVE [t]here's a large gap between why you're adjusting damage and what players are actually playing.

I would strongly recommend balancing around boss parses not dummy parses due to the painfully obvious fact that bosses are where it matters not dummy numbers.

Where is this notion that they're using dummy parsing to drive the balance changes coming from? They specifically said: "We used several factors including player feedback, player parsing data, and our own internal PvE and PvP statistical data." Certainly sounds like they're using actual data based on how classes are playing "in the field" - not against dummies - when judging whether or not something is hitting the target DPS.

------

 

I don't have any first-hand feedback to offer but I will say that the arguments people are posting here about the need to seriously factor in a class's utility, not just straight damage output, seem pretty compelling. A class might only be putting out 8,000 DPS of its hypothetical target 10,000, but if it is consistently hobbling its opponents down to 5,000 then it's certainly over-performing.

 

Other than that, just wanted to add that the commitment to increased communications is indeed nice. Keep up the solid work on that front.

Edited June 15, 2017 by DarthDymond

First thanks for the post, truly appreciated.

 

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room. I mean the pink one sitting on the pedestal in the middle :

.

• As long as PvE and PvP skills effects aren't (somehow) distinct you will never achieve a good balance for PvE and PvP.
  

 

Then regarding PvP, the two biggest issues hindering it are:

• The STUNs
  
• Gearing matters.
  

 

I'm actually playing PVP based FPS games and it's refreshing not being annoyed by gear difference and not having keyboards being taken away from players that much while others beat the crap out of them.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Deewe

We feel Melee damage types are inherently disadvantaged

 

With all due respect to the Bioware devs, this simple isn't true in PvP. 4 meter melee range is not a disadvantage in any way. Have you even seen how far 4 meters is? The "advantage" of range in PvP does not exist because a ranged caster will NEVER get beyond 4 meters from a melee target without using a cooldown, and if I have to use a cooldown every single time I want to get a single cast off without getting my head bashed in, that is a problem. The 30 meter range of ranged classes is immediately negated by 30 meter gap closers, and then made irrelevant because the ranged caster will never get out of melee range without a cooldown. And that cooldown will at best give them a single cast before the melee is back on them, smashing away freely.

 

I fully understand that your post was made from a PvE perspective and I agree with everything else you've said as it pertains to PvE. But if you extrapolate this philosophy to PvP it simply breaks down. A ranged class's advantage in PvP is the ability to kite, NOT the ability to DPS from anywhere, as it is in PvE. For the uninitiated, the definition of kiting is the ability to maintain a safe distance from a melee target WHILE MAINTAINING DPS. What kiting doesn't mean is running away in futility while you get your head bashed in because you can't get out of the massive 4 meter melee range (seriously, go stand 4 meters away from a target dummy and hit it with a melee ability).

 

Outside of a few utility powered abilities (like Blazing Bolts (9 sec cd) + Thrill of the Hunt (cast while moving) + Riddle (70% snare (!) on every hit), KITING DOES NOT HAPPEN IN SWTOR. I suspect you know this already, at least subconsciously, since you and the community seem insistent on overloading ranged classes with DCD's so ranged classes are less reliant on kiting and can just tank melee. If that's the cast, where's the advantage of a ranged class in PvP?

 

4 meter melee range is ridiculously overpowered in PvP. It should be 1 meter (or 1.5 if you're feeling generous). A melee player won't even notice how far their range is because they're just spamming their next ability until it hits something. But a ranged kiter will notice how far that range is, and it's completely ridiculous.

Edited June 15, 2017 by fifteendollers

So exactly how is a class like IO overpowered?. Yes on a single target it will perform well mainly because of the sub 30% execution phase. Above 30% it's almost exactly the same as Arsenal with none of heat management issues, harder rotation and worse AOE. If you are going to nerf IO's single target sustained then dot spread/heat management needs an improvement (making sweeping blasters free and spread dots will fix this) do this and I'll agree, do nothing and just nerf the single target and playing IO compared to Arsenal will be absolutely pointless.

Where is this notion that they're using dummy parsing to drive the balance changes coming from? They specifically said: "We used several factors including player feedback, player parsing data, and our own internal PvE and PvP statistical data." Certainly sounds like they're using actual data based on how classes are playing "in the field" - not against dummies - when judging whether or not something is hitting the target DPS.

 

How about the large chart determining damage output.

 

And then the reality of what people are playing and why they are playing it.

<<

Lastly, you might also wonder why there are not more changes to utilities and survivability for damage dealers in 5.3, and that is a fair question. We are first focusing on the damage and healing output for all Classes before getting too carried away with utility changes. This is because opinions about where a given Discipline stands among the pack can be clouded by high or low damage or healing output without anyone even realizing it. That is not to say we won’t tweak a utility here or there, but before we go making massive changes to a class’s utility toolkit, we want to make sure the damage or healing they can put out is on target and relatively similar to other Disciplines in their grouping. Once we are happy with the damage output, we can start adjusting utilities to give those that need it a boost and others that are too powerful a reduction.

>>

 

My concern with the "get everyone on the same page with damage output" is that is exactly where the original design team messed up. I realize that you have to start somewhere but that's just too simplistic. What exactly is the downside of playing a stealth character with self-heals and numerous crowd control abilities (concealment operative) if his melee burst is the same as that of a carnage mara that has none of that who is also in the same damage category?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Savej

They were talking about this crap how dot mdps should be top damage etc 2 or 3 years ago, I can't find source for something so old.

 

And now bringing it up as if its something new, lol.

 

Next they will tell us about their new idea for all nim bosses to drop specific loot.

 

They talked about it in the November 2014 live streams leading up to 3.0 when they demonstrated new class abilities. They even stated that they had the same target goals with + 5% for melee dot specs and - 5% for ranged burst specs. I don't feel like going back though the twitch videos to find where they actually said it, but I do remember it was said.

With all due respect to the Bioware devs, this simple isn't true in PvP. 4 meter melee range is not a disadvantage in any way. Have you even seen how far 4 meters is?.... it's completely ridiculous.

 

This whole post is just ....completely ridiculous.

They talked about it in the November 2014 live streams leading up to 3.0 when they demonstrated new class abilities. They even stated that they had the same target goals with + 5% for melee dot specs and - 5% for ranged burst specs. I don't feel like going back though the twitch videos to find where they actually said it, but I do remember it was said.

 

It doesn't matter anyway. What was or wasn't said. It's all irrilevant.

 

The point is that this mindset, this idea of balance, is fundamentally flawed.

There are WAY too many contradictions to cite here.

 

Perhaps you should read your own post out loud and ask yourself if it makes sense.

You should also try researching a little, and maybe you might learn why nobody does this, and why it shouldn't even be considered

Edited June 15, 2017 by Bonzenaattori

With all due respect to the Bioware devs, this simple isn't true in PvP. 4 meter melee range is not a disadvantage in any way. Have you even seen how far 4 meters is? The "advantage" of range in PvP does not exist because a ranged caster will NEVER get beyond 4 meters from a melee target without using a cooldown, and if I have to use a cooldown every single time I want to get a single cast off without getting my head bashed in, that is a problem. The 30 meter range of ranged classes is immediately negated by 30 meter gap closers, and then made irrelevant because the ranged caster will never get out of melee range without a cooldown. And that cooldown will at best give them a single cast before the melee is back on them, smashing away freely.

 

I fully understand that your post was made from a PvE perspective and I agree with everything else you've said as it pertains to PvE. But if you extrapolate this philosophy to PvP it simply breaks down. A ranged class's advantage in PvP is the ability to kite, NOT the ability to DPS from anywhere, as it is in PvE. For the uninitiated, the definition of kiting is the ability to maintain a safe distance from a melee target WHILE MAINTAINING DPS. What kiting doesn't mean is running away in futility while you get your head bashed in because you can't get out of the massive 4 meter melee range (seriously, go stand 4 meters away from a target dummy and hit it with a melee ability).

 

Outside of a few utility powered abilities (like Blazing Bolts (9 sec cd) + Thrill of the Hunt (cast while moving) + Riddle (70% snare (!) on every hit), KITING DOES NOT HAPPEN IN SWTOR. I suspect you know this already, at least subconsciously, since you and the community seem insistent on overloading ranged classes with DCD's so ranged classes are less reliant on kiting and can just tank melee. If that's the cast, where's the advantage of a ranged class in PvP?

 

4 meter melee range is ridiculously overpowered in PvP. It should be 1 meter (or 1.5 if you're feeling generous). A melee player won't even notice how far their range is because they're just spamming their next ability until it hits something. But a ranged kiter will notice how far that range is, and it's completely ridiculous.

 

You can't be serious.

With all due respect to the Bioware devs, this simple isn't true in PvP. 4 meter melee range is not a disadvantage in any way. Have you even seen how far 4 meters is? The "advantage" of range in PvP does not exist because a ranged caster will NEVER get beyond 4 meters from a melee target without using a cooldown, and if I have to use a cooldown every single time I want to get a single cast off without getting my head bashed in, that is a problem. The 30 meter range of ranged classes is immediately negated by 30 meter gap closers, and then made irrelevant because the ranged caster will never get out of melee range without a cooldown. And that cooldown will at best give them a single cast before the melee is back on them, smashing away freely.

 

I fully understand that your post was made from a PvE perspective and I agree with everything else you've said as it pertains to PvE. But if you extrapolate this philosophy to PvP it simply breaks down. A ranged class's advantage in PvP is the ability to kite, NOT the ability to DPS from anywhere, as it is in PvE. For the uninitiated, the definition of kiting is the ability to maintain a safe distance from a melee target WHILE MAINTAINING DPS. What kiting doesn't mean is running away in futility while you get your head bashed in because you can't get out of the massive 4 meter melee range (seriously, go stand 4 meters away from a target dummy and hit it with a melee ability).

 

Outside of a few utility powered abilities (like Blazing Bolts (9 sec cd) + Thrill of the Hunt (cast while moving) + Riddle (70% snare (!) on every hit), KITING DOES NOT HAPPEN IN SWTOR. I suspect you know this already, at least subconsciously, since you and the community seem insistent on overloading ranged classes with DCD's so ranged classes are less reliant on kiting and can just tank melee. If that's the cast, where's the advantage of a ranged class in PvP?

 

4 meter melee range is ridiculously overpowered in PvP. It should be 1 meter (or 1.5 if you're feeling generous). A melee player won't even notice how far their range is because they're just spamming their next ability until it hits something. But a ranged kiter will notice how far that range is, and it's completely ridiculous.

 

I just lost faith in mankind

Oh god leave my MM sniper alone.

 

Just get rid of that god bubble please. I need the rest of my kit.