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How do you guys approach the issue of skill level in determining who goes on ops?


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Now, I know gear is one thing, but gear can only get you so far. I'm sure we all have had that 1 guildie who everybody likes, who's very nice to everyone, but they can't for the life of them learn to play their class properly, or react quickly to things in operations.

 

That said, sometim that same player is also insistent on getting to go, because they meet the "gear requirements"... unfortunately, they don't meet the skill requirements.

 

Anyways, just curious how others handle this issue. Do you hit it with them straight up? Do you try to sugarcoat it? Or do you go out of your way to carry them by placing them in overgeared and extremely skilled groups?

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Approach them about it, in a nice way, and tell them they need to improve. If they don't, then you don't really have a choice. It's 7 peoples time vs that 1 persons time.

 

EDIT: There are resources on these forums and on mmo-mechanics.com that can be seriously helpful when trying to learn a classes ins and outs.

Edited by ckoneful
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Now, I know gear is one thing, but gear can only get you so far. I'm sure we all have had that 1 guildie who everybody likes, who's very nice to everyone, but they can't for the life of them learn to play their class properly, or react quickly to things in operations.

 

That said, sometim that same player is also insistent on getting to go, because they meet the "gear requirements"... unfortunately, they don't meet the skill requirements.

 

Anyways, just curious how others handle this issue. Do you hit it with them straight up? Do you try to sugarcoat it? Or do you go out of your way to carry them by placing them in overgeared and extremely skilled groups?

 

Usually, if this is the case; the best course of action is to try and mentor them after being straight up and telling them you can't put them in due to their skill. Offer tutoring chances, ways to improve themselves; etc. With a good raider/person, they will accept this and try very hard to make an improvement. If they do, great; if not, then you need to be honest with them and suggest that maybe the guild they're in now isn't the right place. If they flat out refuse the help, then honestly they're not someone you're going to want in raid from my own experience. You should ask them kindly to leave the guild, and find a new one.

 

Skill is a really tough thing to deal with in a raiding guild, you have to step around it carefully in situations like that :/

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If after numerous mentor sessions (training dummy, HM FPs, WZs) they can't get the hang of it, we sadly inform them that they will not be doing Ops where we cannot simply carry an 8th person - we'll bring them to EV, KP SM EC but just so they can have some fun. After they get bored of that then we generally don't raid with them.

 

Tell them that it's only a game and that not being a good raider doesn't mean anything because it's just a video game.

 

DO NOT CALL THEM A "NOOB." DO NOT CALL THEM SLOW, OR STUPID.

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Having fun is the most important part of playing MMORPG. Unless you're a hardcore progression guild, it's better to keep everyone happy rather than focusing on 'the best'.

 

The hardest 'mechanics' in the game right now is TFB Hm Operator IX, and it consist of people remembering what their colour is. It's not rocket science or abstract mathematics, I'm pretty sure everyone can move in and out of colour circles.

 

Unless you're doing NiM EC or 16 man content, the DPS requirement for all of the fights are very lenient. Healing, on the other hand, requires more skill. If the said person is the healer, then you should ask them to respec to DPS.

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Hi, I'm Dack from Messores Republicae and this is what we do for our raiders. We are a highly selective 16 man progression raiding guild.

 

When we bring people in we tell them that they'll get their chances to show us how good they are and what they can do as far as mechanics go. DPS really isn't a concern when seeing how well people can do because we have people who have a high expertise at their class and are more than willing to help out anyone that needs some coaching.

 

So on to the important stuff, mechanics! When we're trying out a new member we take he/she into an operation of their gear level and asses how well they can do what they need to do. DPS not being hit by red circles, using threat drops at the right time, you know, the things people need to know and be able to execute in order to be competitive. If they can't get it down in a reasonable amount of time then they're rotated out of the operation for someone else to come in so that the other 15 people aren't having their time (which we're all paying for, mind you) wasted. As soon as we run the raid again and get to that mechanic though we'd pull he/she back in to run it again.

 

So, let's say we're in your situation and we've got this awesome guy that's come along and been a part of our guild for a long time; it just so happens that he just flat out SUCKS at mechanics. Well, we'll run him and run him and run him week after week on the mechanics he can't get down until he either learns them or gives up. If that person really wants to be here and improve so that they can be part of the team and pull their weight then they'll keep trying and trying until they learn what to do and develop raiding skills. Practice makes perfect, and even though some of us learn faster than others none of us were born with the ability to run raid mechanics. I remember back when Colonel Daksh used to one shot the tank if he were hit by the boss's laser eyes. Our tank just couldn't get it down so my other guildmates and I would sit on our speeders and just watch him do the dance for hours each day until he became proficient at knowing when to move and how to move his character effectively.

 

Gist of it:

1) Have them find out where they're deficient

2) If it's mechanics have them run the mechanic they suck at over and over again but rotate them out of the operation after a good number of tries so that the other raiders don't feel like they're having their time wasted/getting uber bored

3) Have people help train this person with a spec/rotation/stat priorities

 

If you're person is serious about being with you guys and pulling his/her weight then they'll log in and work on improving themselves. Remember, you're not doing this to be a dick, but to push people to be the best they can be as well as making it fun for everyone!

Just what we do, if any of this helps you decide what you should do then that's awesome, if not, then that's cool too :)

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If they are in your guild then dont be a dick about it. Give him guides or have someone of the same class teach him better ways to use his abilities. Also it helps to explain bosses etc. before getting into battle. It might take some time to explain mechanics to him if he is as slow as you make him seem but that is the price you need to pay I suppose. Finally if you just cant get through you may want to consider just kicking him from the guild since he is "dead weight".
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The hardest 'mechanics' in the game right now is TFB Hm Operator IX, and it consist of people remembering what their colour is. It's not rocket science or abstract mathematics, I'm pretty sure everyone can move in and out of colour circles.

Descending the platforms at Soa seems to be surprisingly hard. My last two attempts at it through group finder have failed because half the people died when descending. I'm not quite sure if it was the healers that didn't heal enough, or the other people who didn't stay where the healers could heal them.

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Descending the platforms at Soa seems to be surprisingly hard. My last two attempts at it through group finder have failed because half the people died when descending. I'm not quite sure if it was the healers that didn't heal enough, or the other people who didn't stay where the healers could heal them.

 

How... just how??? It's 2 mechanics. Jump down to the next level when the platforms are there and kill off the devices... I could only hope they would know how to pay attention to their own hp to see if they need healed or not.

Edited by haliy
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Tell them that it's only a game and that not being a good raider doesn't mean anything because it's just a video game.

So it is only a game but you don't think it is worth enjoying it with your friend because success is too important to you?

 

If I was ever in this situation I would re-assess my own priorities and if raid success meant more to me than actually playing with someone I like then I would probably quit the game because it was doing me more harm than good.

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If they are in your guild then dont be a dick about it.

 

I'd say "don't be a dick to anyone" regardless of them being in your guild or not. Courtesy and politeness go a long way and most people will not feel threatened, offended or attacked personally. The small bunch that will is not worth the effort and is fair game for trolling and ignoring. :D

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What you choose to do, do it immediately! When I was guild leader / raid leader in LOTRO we had this problem but we took the "fair" approach and just rotated everyone in to raids regardless of skill level. As a result, we got stuck on a boss at some point and couldn't progress because we'd always have 1 or 2 "bad" players who'd wipe us. As a result, the good raiders quit the guild due to lack of progress, my friends quit because raiding was no longer fun and the bad players quit because they were dying all the time and expected to be carried.

 

So, bad players can destroy a raiding guild if you dont handle them. Even being a dick and just booting them is going to be better, long term, for the guild than doing nothing.

 

 

What we ended up doing im my guild after we'd rebuilt it is start a "core raid list" as well as an "improvers list". You would make the core list if:

 

1) You are a fast learner

2) You can play your class very well

3) You meet minimum gear requirements

 

Everybody else would be put on the improvers list. The officers would keep track of suggestions for improvements for all raiders (core and non-core), for example suggestions on gear improvements, rotation, specific boss fights etc. Officers would offer training to all members.

 

For progression raids, raiders on the core list would get priority. We also specifically run training / gearing raids for the non-core raiders. A raid is considered progression if we haven't cleared it 3 times. After 3 times it is considered "on farm" and we stop worrying about peoples ability to learn and just try to get everyone through the raid. It is much easier to carry people / train people once the top raiders have cleared a boss.

 

 

 

Whilst our system is not perfect, it provides everyone with a clear understanding of where they stand in the guild, what they need to improve, who to ask etc. It got rid of all the entitlement players who expected to be on the core list but didn't make it because they aren't very good. Most people on our improvers list will never make the core list because they just aren't motivated to, but every now and again one of them decides to progress and will act upon our suggestions. I wish we could be more inclusive of people but some people *are* stupid / lazy / nooby / whatever and are simply not capable of clearing the hardest content in game.

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My best advice is run parsers and use logs. Discuss them at the end of the raid or the next time everyone's on. If it's an issue of selective deafness, then do the debriefs at the end of every failed pull. "Ok what went wrong here? Oh, so-and-so wiped again? Oh whosit is not only dead last in DPS but also 20% behind third? Again?' But do it nicely.

 

Another thing that helps is having lots of 'fun runs'. Asation SM in particular is a blast to run. Our guild runs it 1-2 times a week depending on if we get a 16 together or two 8s. Low key, low pressure runs in which weaker players CAN be carried. I've even been known to respec into a kolto bomb/grav round hybrid to help shore up a weak healer just so we could include them. By doing a lot of these, people are being included more than excluded.

 

A corollary to this is be aware of how many people you can carry and in which positions. A 'fun run' can turn into an OMG rage quit if you try to carry two DPS circumstances, or a healer or a tank. And at other times its manageable.

 

Mentor systems help a lot too. Sometimes you get someone with amazing raid awareness but difficulty putting out DPS. Find them someone you know in guild our outside who'll help em out. Sometimes it's the opposite. That's what fun runs are for, when it's relaxed enough you can coach while not wiping. In addition, some gentle nudging into re-roll and/or respec can be helpful. As a gunnery commando it pains me to admit this, but people who can't handle complex rotations can do serviceable work in simpler ACs.

 

Recognize the difference between skill level and experience. When I started raiding I was pretty pathetic. Given that SWTOR was my first real video game, that shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Nowadays, I'm our top DPS, one of our raid tanks, and on the call-list for a couple of other guilds for both tanking and DPS. Thank god no one wrote me off. So it was a real kick in the face to my self-image when I realized I'd wrongly done that with someone in my guild. Yeah they were rough, really rough, poor raid awareness, inability to follow mechanics, and poor DPS. Fast forward two months later, and they're now a perfectly competent member of the guild.

 

Finally, I'm going to echo the person above me who said that whatever it is, handle it quickly. Things can fester and get ugly if left unhandled for long periods of time.

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So it is only a game but you don't think it is worth enjoying it with your friend because success is too important to you?

 

If I was ever in this situation I would re-assess my own priorities and if raid success meant more to me than actually playing with someone I like then I would probably quit the game because it was doing me more harm than good.

 

The way i see it is that i raid maybe 6 to 10 hours a week; that leaves me with plenty of time to mess around with friends and people that i see as great social friends but not the greatest players.

 

It is sorta like if you played baseball as a hobby; you may play in a league there is competitive, and winning is very important, while also playing in a second league that is more suited to social aspects and where winning isnt important at all.

 

It doesnt make you a dick to play in a league where winning and competition is important.

 

@OP, it really depends on what type of raid force you have, if you guys are more casual, hardcore.... somewhere in the middle. It is important to define where your raid force stands and address issues concerning under-performance accordingly to where you guys stand (ex. casual really doesnt give a damn and will sugarcoat things, while a hardcore will be straightforward).

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On top of the personal mentoring, parse analysis, etc. it might be helpful to have not just "casual" runs but "introductory" runs where you take some less-experienced people along for the explicit purpose of learning to execute mechanics and utilize class skills. If you tell everyone up front that you will have an intro op, easily annoyed vets will know to stay away, helpful vets will want to come along, and those who need improving will be more open to ask questions (unlike in other ops where people might be intimidated and not want to slow the raid down with noob questions).

 

In my experience this has been a great way to get PVPers involved in PVE, give experienced folks a chance to try a new class/role, and satisfy the desire for everyone to raid without bogging down high-end progression runs with excessive mistakes.

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