Mace Windu is one of the greatest duelists ever. A very rare few could ever match or defeat him in a duel. Yoda, Qui-Gon and Count Dooku are some of them.

 

On the topic of Qui-Gon's death. He didn't die due to lack of skill. He died because of the circumstance. His age and the tight quarters were taken advantage of by the young agile Sith Lord. His form was also not a preferred form for close quarters. Qui-Gon had mastered Ataru form to the extent that he had eliminated the form's weakness to blaster fire. But he was past his prime during that fight. Later in life, Qui-Gon focused more on the philosophy of the Living Force and preparing his apprentice for the Jedi trials.

Fact. Wookieepedia supported fact right there.

True, but his lightsaber form wasn't very effective against a single opponent weilding a single lightsaber.

 

But regardless, we've come to an understanding.

True, but we have seen him show great prowess with a Lightsaber and was one of the Order's most skilled. His only limitation was the weakness of Form I. It should be noted that Kit Fisto could defeat foes that used multiple weapons like Grievous, as well as Revan. Revan used two Lightsabers as well as the standard single Lightsaber. I'm not sure which he preferred. But if he went dual-wield, he'd lose. But there is a good chance he'd lose anyway. But that's not the point. The point it that Kit Fisto was one of the Order's best swordsmen.

I will discuss the PT masters capabilities in part 2 of this thread.

Fact. Wookieepedia supported fact right there.

I should also touch on Darth Maul's skill as well. Darth Maul is one of the most skilled Lightsaber duelists of his time. He was very proficient user of the double-bladed Lightsaber that gave him an edge in battle. In my opinion, Qui-Gon in his prime could have beaten Maul. My opinion of course, but it is backed up by the fact that he could duel Windu as an equal. And we know Windu could take Maul to school. What with shatterpoint and Vaapad.

But Darth Maul is a very skilled warrior and should be recognized as such.

I'm sorry but it still does not make sense. The Jedi of the PT era were the best of the best, yet at the end of ROTS there was only two of them left. I mean they failed on an epic scale, really they should be considered worst Jedi ever. So to say TOR Jedi are not as powerful, well if I was aTOR Jedi I would be insulted.

The second installment of this series covered that. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=533833

Any questions?

If you were a TOR Jedi you would be insulted, briefly. Then Mace Windu would smack some sense into you.

I'm not gonna lie. I understand your confusion. I use to think the same thing. You have to understand that Jedi do not gain power in the same way a Sith does. You have to understand that the TOR Jedi didn't gain power during the war. Not in the same sense. They increased in martial skill as well as battle experience, but fighting does not give them more power. It increases the power of the Sith. The Jedi, like the Light Side, gain power when the Dark Side is neutralized. During that millenia of peace, the Jedi were able to increase in power without the Sith. The Light Side benefits from peace, and the Jedi draw power from the Light Side. Hence their power. When the Sith use the Dark Side, they oppress the Light Side. The more Sith there are, the stronger the Dark Side. So the TOR Jedi would never reach their true potential in times of war.

However, when Sidious killed his master, the Dark Side grew in power due to the greatest Sith Lord using it to oppress the Light Side. He did so just by being there. His existence increased the power of the Dark Side. The Dark Side was at it's strongest during Sidious' lifetime and, I believe it will never reach that state again.

The second installment of this series covered that. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=533833

 

Any questions?

 

If you were a TOR Jedi you would be insulted, briefly. Then Mace Windu would smack some sense into you.

Made Windu isn't the best example. The real point is that the average pre-Order 66 Jedi vs the average OR Jedi, the former would win. But there are a few exceptions. That's all I'm saying.

I should also touch on Darth Maul's skill as well. Darth Maul is one of the most skilled Lightsaber duelists of his time. He was very proficient user of the double-bladed Lightsaber that gave him an edge in battle. In my opinion, Qui-Gon in his prime could have beaten Maul. My opinion of course, but it is backed up by the fact that he could duel Windu as an equal. And we know Windu could take Maul to school. What with shatterpoint and Vaapad.

 

But Darth Maul is a very skilled warrior and should be recognized as such.

all the following i got from the PTM Novel...

Qui Gon actually admits that Maul is better trained in the fighting arts than him - Also - an enclosed space is also a disadvantage for a double-bladed lightsaber wielder as well....in fact so much so that Qui Gon was the one that actually pressed closer to Maul as an actual tactic because even though it wasn't his natural style - he still thought it still more of a disadvantage to Maul.....(when fighting Qui Gon 1 v 1 - Maul may have been better off employing Single Saber in that environment - but he still won anyway)

As for Windu I disagree about him taking Maul to school... perhaps Vaapad my give him an edge on Maul being a Darkside user - but ironically he may not be able to draw from others (and especially empower himself) as easily as against Sidious because Sidious was such a powerful source of darkside energy.

On a Technical aspect I would say Maul is definitely on Windu's level..... Qui Gon being considered an equal of Windu shows that Windu's technical level is around the same (as the Vaapad loop cannot be used against non-Darksiders only the form.......)....Maul has his own advantages too.....

The Nature of the Darkside power loop of Vaapad to me is what may give Windu the edge...Windu was not on Sidious' Level without it (and delving deeper than he ever had into Vapaad really only allowed him to keep up with Sidious drawing on Sidious' power....- it was only after Sidious slowed down that he got the advantage...distraction or deliberate.....?) - and I think that Yoda would beat Windu also - because without that power draw - Yoda would be a bit too Quick for Windu - not to mention the awkwardness of his small size being such a hard target to hit...

Made Windu isn't the best example. The real point is that the average pre-Order 66 Jedi vs the average OR Jedi, the former would win. But there are a few exceptions. That's all I'm saying.

Well you're not allowed to say it. Conform to cannon. Now.

all the following i got from the PTM Novel...

 

Qui Gon actually admits that Maul is better trained in the fighting arts than him - Also - an enclosed space is also a disadvantage for a double-bladed lightsaber wielder as well....in fact so much so that Qui Gon was the one that actually pressed closer to Maul as an actual tactic because even though it wasn't his natural style - he still thought it still more of a disadvantage to Maul.....(when fighting Qui Gon 1 v 1 - Maul may have been better off employing Single Saber in that environment - but he still won anyway)

 

As for Windu I disagree about him taking Maul to school... perhaps Vaapad my give him an edge on Maul being a Darkside user - but ironically he may not be able to draw from others (and especially empower himself) as easily as against Sidious because Sidious was such a powerful source of darkside energy.

On a Technical aspect I would say Maul is definitely on Windu's level..... Qui Gon being considered an equal of Windu shows that Windu's technical level is around the same (as the Vaapad loop cannot be used against non-Darksiders only the form.......)....Maul has his own advantages too.....

 

The Nature of the Darkside power loop of Vaapad to me is what may give Windu the edge...Windu was not on Sidious' Level without it (and delving deeper than he ever had into Vapaad really only allowed him to keep up with Sidious drawing on Sidious' power....- it was only after Sidious slowed down that he got the advantage...distraction or deliberate.....?) - and I think that Yoda would beat Windu also - because without that power draw - Yoda would be a bit too Quick for Windu - not to mention the awkwardness of his small size being such a hard target to hit...

Maul and Qui-Gon both had advantages and disadvantages. As I have said in past threads, it depends on who uses their advantages the best. Qui-Gon pushed in on Maul, which would have neutralized their advantages except Maul was much more agile than the elder Jedi. His age really got the best of him in that fight. Qui-Gon was an equal to Windu during his prime. He was no longer at his best during the fight with Maul. As I said before, age caught up to him.

Windu also has shatterpoint and could use that to analyze Maul's weakness and exploit it. Mace Windu's trump card against Dark Side users is Vaapad. While he has mastered the rest of the Lightsaber forms, he resorts to Vaapad when fighting Sith. So Yoda has a better chance of beating Mace than Maul or Sidious, simply because Vaapad doesn't affect Jedi.

Anyway, we're not here to talk about Maul. The subject is fun to talk about, but we can go in circles talking about him.

OK so I've been thinking about Part 2. I think I'm going to discuss the Jedi and Sith codes for Part 2, because in order to understand the Jedi and Sith training methods, we have to understand their codes as well.

Not to worry. Part 3 will discuss the Jedi and Sith training methods.

Well you're not allowed to say it. Conform to cannon. Now.

Like others, you are mis-translating what Lucas.

Like others, you are mis-translating what Lucas.

Oops didn't finish my though there. Meant to put a said on the end of that sentence.

That was blatant sarcasm. Surprised you didn't pick it up. Who am I to say what you can or can't say?

Ah, sorry for the confusion. It can be hard to pick up sarcasim in writing.

For years I naturally assumed the old republic jedi were generally a cut above the PT jedi. The first time I played kotor my powers seemed more extreme then any force user in the PT era. However i was playing Revan not some standard run of the mill jedi. After doing more research on the matter it would seem the PT force users are generally more powerful. However i believe that there were plenty of exceptions to the rule i.e Revan, Satele, Malgus, Vitiate, Exar kun, Emperors Wrath, etc.

As for the Banite Sith, its hard to say how much they really evolved over 1000 years and if the power difference between Bane and Sideous is drastic. Bane was an absolute beast, the feats he performed in those novels were nothing short of impressive. A lot of unknown variables come into play on this. According to SW wiki there were 14 lords after bane and before Sideous. There is virtually no info whatsoever about most of the lords before Plagueis and Tenebrous.

It is possible not all them became more powerful than their predecessor. In my opinion Bane and Zannah were equals. That was a close fight which could've gone either way. Zannah happened to come out on top. She won, but she won lying on her back with broken ribs, and screaming in agony while Bane tried to possess her body. The way i see it is unless there was a Banite apprentice who utterly wiped the floor with his/her master then power difference between Bane and Sidious would not be extreme. Even if an apprentice utterly demolished his master nobody knows how the story continues. Maybe some time after there was a much weaker apprentice who killed a master in his sleep the same way Sidious did away with Plagueis. However in that case Sidious was every bit of Plagueis equal. However the way Sidious killed Plagueis proves he was at least somewhat worried about the outcome of a straight up duel with his master. By killing Plagueis in his sleep he ensures his victory 100%

With all that said I think its most likely over a millenium the baanite sith did grow in power to a degree. I think in a straight up duel between bane and Sidious would result in Sidious as the victor, but I think Bane would sure make him work for that victory. I remember last year when i first read about bane. He seemed very similar to Vader in certain ways. Both big guys who were raw force powerhouses, they could endure alot of pain, and were very physically strong, also both preferred the Djem so style of lightsaber combat. Only Bane has the lightning, and he could instantly incinerate enemies with that lightning. I remember I kept imagining Vader and Bane locked in a duel, and what a ferocious duel it would be. Lucas stated Darth Vader is 80% powerful as The Emperor. I don't think its unreasonable to say Bane would also be around 80%

For years I naturally assumed the old republic jedi were generally a cut above the PT jedi. The first time I played kotor my powers seemed more extreme then any force user in the PT era. However i was playing Revan not some standard run of the mill jedi. After doing more research on the matter it would seem the PT force users are generally more powerful. However i believe that there were plenty of exceptions to the rule i.e Revan, Satele, Malgus, Vitiate, Exar kun, Emperors Wrath, etc.

 

As for the Banite Sith, its hard to say how much they really evolved over 1000 years and if the power difference between Bane and Sideous is drastic. Bane was an absolute beast, the feats he performed in those novels were nothing short of impressive. A lot of unknown variables come into play on this. According to SW wiki there were 14 lords after bane and before Sideous. There is virtually no info whatsoever about most of the lords before Plagueis and Tenebrous.

 

It is possible not all them became more powerful than their predecessor. In my opinion Bane and Zannah were equals. That was a close fight which could've gone either way. Zannah happened to come out on top. She won, but she won lying on her back with broken ribs, and screaming in agony while Bane tried to possess her body. The way i see it is unless there was a Banite apprentice who utterly wiped the floor with his/her master then power difference between Bane and Sidious would not be extreme. Even if an apprentice utterly demolished his master nobody knows how the story continues. Maybe some time after there was a much weaker apprentice who killed a master in his sleep the same way Sidious did away with Plagueis. However in that case Sidious was every bit of Plagueis equal. However the way Sidious killed Plagueis proves he was at least somewhat worried about the outcome of a straight up duel with his master. By killing Plagueis in his sleep he ensures his victory 100%

 

With all that said I think its most likely over a millenium the baanite sith did grow in power to a degree. I think in a straight up duel between bane and Sidious would result in Sidious as the victor, but I think Bane would sure make him work for that victory. I remember last year when i first read about bane. He seemed very similar to Vader in certain ways. Both big guys who were raw force powerhouses, they could endure alot of pain, and were very physically strong, also both preferred the Djem so style of lightsaber combat. Only Bane has the lightning, and he could instantly incinerate enemies with that lightning. I remember I kept imagining Vader and Bane locked in a duel, and what a ferocious duel it would be. Lucas stated Darth Vader is 80% powerful as The Emperor. I don't think its unreasonable to say Bane would also be around 80%

You're exactly right to say that there are exceptions to the rule.