Note: the whole post contains SPOILERS which is why I'm not tagging it, please take this in mind when reading.

 

 

This is more apparent in the later stages of the game, ie Act 3, but is plenty clear enough in Act 1 and 2. The Imperial classes tend to expend their time hunting other Imperials, while Republic classes get to directly attack the Empire.This is most obvious on Corellia, in both class stories and the world arc. While most Republic classes deal their blows to Empire, only one Imperial class directly damages the Republic.

 

Darth Decimus, Darth Acharon and Darth Hadra all die at the hands of the Republic on Corellia, shortly afterwards Darth Thanaton, Darth Arho and Darth Baras die as a result of Sith infighting. That's half the Dark Council, in the game's last moments.

 

Though not through Republic involvement, the Sith Empire also loses Imperial Intelligence.

 

Conversely, the Imperials kill no members of the Jedi Council (bar the First Son, a servant of the Emperor) - and only get to kill the unimportant 'Green Jedi Council'. True the Bounty Hunter kills/captures the Supreme Chancellor - no doubt a blow to the Republic, but oppositely the Jedi Knight (seemingly) kills the Sith Emperor - clearly a far bigger blow than the Supreme Chancellor.

 

Following this in the novel - Darth Karrid is killed at the hands of the Republic - who make fools the Empire, breaking into the Minister of Logistics fortress on the Sith world of Ziost. Add a 7th to the Dark Council death toll, in a short period of time.

 

Yes we know ultimately the Empire loses, but this quickly? I didn't think they would start killing of the Empire so early into it's existence - they're working with a blank slate, clearly the Empire's story could last centuries more. I'm hoping that this will be the case, and there will be a resurgence in the Empire's war effort - and Imperial charactors get to kill notble Republic charactors - such as Satile Shan (perhaps for the Sith Warrior).

 

Story wise the game seems completely unbalanced to me, and on a technical note - how is it feasible that a Smuggler or Trooper could kill a Dark Council member like Darth Decimious?...

It's pretty easy to understand:

The empire has internal conflicts going on through the sith governement and that results in: The empire fights the empire

The goal of the jedi is to destroy the sith: the republic fights the empire

 

As HK-51 says in one of the dialogues (paraphrased): The empires internal conflicts have to stop, a united empire would be able to destroy the republic.

I agree with Never_Hesitate's assessment. The fact that advancement can only be achieved by killing your superior, is an unsustainable method of governance. This eventually leads Darth Bane to implement the Rule of Two.

 

Another issue you are probably not taking into account is that ALL sci-fi stories tend to have is a general lack of concrete passage of time.

 

There are several examples of this in the Star Wars universe. One of which is...

 

- the entire sequence of the Falcon evading the Empire in ESB:

• how long did the Falcon evade the Empire before entering the asteroid field?
  
• how long did the Falcon sit the belly of the asteroid beast before they figured out they were in the belly of an animal?
  
• how long was the sub-light journey from the asteroid belt (in the "no-oid" system to Bespin)?
  [*}how long were they in Cloud City before Lando brought them to "dinner" with Darth Vader?
  

And during all this time Luke is on Dagobah with Yoda in Jedi training.

In movie time that whole sequence only took about 30 minutes, but it was probably months if not a year.

 

In this game the JK spends a year under the influence of the Emperor, but the time goes almost instantly for the player - there is a fade to black and fade back in.

 

And all the other class and planet stories happen in parallel. Chances are that several years pass during the leveling 1-50 process.

 

In addition, unlike in real life where many evil leaders build their "empires" over time and by the time the rest of the world realizes what is going on, it often too late...in SWTOR the Republic realizes what the Empire is doing and quickly swoops in to prevent it. Which is why the "war" is so short. The Sith Council is decimated and now the Empire has to start over again.

 

Lastly, as to how a smuggler or trooper can kill a Sith Council member like Darth Decimus - call it what you will, but in every story the hero has to defeat the villain eventually. Whether by luck or skill, the hero wins in the end.

how is it feasible that a Smuggler or Trooper could kill a Dark Council member like Darth Decimious?

 

Pluck, grit, and determination. It's pretty clear that all of the protagonists are "strong" in the Force, even if they can't see, or use it.

 

If you play a Bounty Hunter you get to enjoy several instances of skill and technology triumphing over powerful Force Users, such as

 

 

 

I agree with Never_Hesitate's assessment. The fact that advancement can only be achieved by killing your superior, is an unsustainable method of governance. This eventually leads Darth Bane to implement the Rule of Two.

 

Another issue you are probably not taking into account is that ALL sci-fi stories tend to have is a general lack of concrete passage of time.

 

There are several examples of this in the Star Wars universe. One of which is...

 

- the entire sequence of the Falcon evading the Empire in ESB:

• how long did the Falcon evade the Empire before entering the asteroid field?
  
• how long did the Falcon sit the belly of the asteroid beast before they figured out they were in the belly of an animal?
  
• how long was the sub-light journey from the asteroid belt (in the "no-oid" system to Bespin)?
  [*}how long were they in Cloud City before Lando brought them to "dinner" with Darth Vader?
  

And during all this time Luke is on Dagobah with Yoda in Jedi training.

In movie time that whole sequence only took about 30 minutes, but it was probably months if not a year.

 

In this game the JK spends a year under the influence of the Emperor, but the time goes almost instantly for the player - there is a fade to black and fade back in.

 

And all the other class and planet stories happen in parallel. Chances are that several years pass during the leveling 1-50 process.

 

In addition, unlike in real life where many evil leaders build their "empires" over time and by the time the rest of the world realizes what is going on, it often too late...in SWTOR the Republic realizes what the Empire is doing and quickly swoops in to prevent it. Which is why the "war" is so short. The Sith Council is decimated and now the Empire has to start over again.

 

Lastly, as to how a smuggler or trooper can kill a Sith Council member like Darth Decimus - call it what you will, but in every story the hero has to defeat the villain eventually. Whether by luck or skill, the hero wins in the end.

 

I get that, but regardless of the time-scale and Sith infighting there is a disproportionate amount of Imperial deaths in comparison to Republic ones - and the Republic deaths there tend to be far less significant. E.g. Death of a significant Dark Council member in Republic Corellia arc, death of previously unknown Green Jedi Council in Imperial Corellia arc. Further many who the Republic kill are actually featured in the Empire storyline or atleast well known - Darth Lachris, Darth Malgus, Darth Angral, Darth Decimous and the Sith Emperor, to name a few.

 

Apart from the Supreme Chancellor, I can't think of any significant Republic deaths (characters we've heard of) in the Imperial storylines - no Jedi Council members for example.

 

Pluck, grit, and determination. It's pretty clear that all of the protagonists are "strong" in the Force, even if they can't see, or use it.

 

If you play a Bounty Hunter you get to enjoy several instances of skill and technology triumphing over powerful Force Users, such as

 

 

Act 2: You can Judo throw a Jedi and shoot her in the face while she's down.

Act 3, a Jedi force pushes you off a ledge, but when he leaps down to finish you you turn around and kill him with your blaster.

 

When you face down your Jedi archenemy your bounty hunter shoots missiles that he bats aside, and one more he is forced to dodge, but you're already waiting with the flamethrower and put him on the defensive almost immediately.

 

And lastly, if you choose honor over money and fight the Sith at the end, he blasts you through a door and throws all kinds of crazy stuff at you, but you jetpack out the way and again, use your technology to put him on the defensive so he is forced to engage you in combat.

 

That's true... but if one quotes from the films (as the developers did, constantly), you see Jango Fett and Boba Fett able to go toe to toe with powerful Jedi Knights, where as the idea of Han Solo fighting Darth Vader is ridiculous.

The Empire loses more because the Empire is the bad guy. No matter how much BW tries to show that the Republic has all these flaws, in the end, everyone knows The Empire is the villain of the story. Whether the Empire is your favorite side to play on or not, it will always be the villain.

 

Storytelling doesn't mean both sides should lose equally either, just because there are Empire players. Empire is going to lose. You know that going in.

 

As for Bounty Hunters/Smugglers taking on Jedi/Sith. Why are you limiting it to those two? If you're going by the movies, how does ANYONE who isn't trained in the force able to beat a Jedi/Sith? Jango only held his own for so long and Boba we never really see fight Jedi. Boba at most ensnared Luke, who then broke out of it.

 

This basically comes down to the game needing to accomodate the players.

The Empire loses more because the Empire is the bad guy. No matter how much BW tries to show that the Republic has all these flaws, in the end, everyone knows The Empire is the villain of the story. Whether the Empire is your favorite side to play on or not, it will always be the villain..

 

You misunderstand my point, and clearly you misunderstand the game. I wonder if it's really worth explaining it to you...

 

As Anakin memorably pointed out in Revenge of the Sith - Evil is not an objective term, it's a point of view. What the Jedi and Republic consider sadism, the Sith and Imperials consider ruthness. And the Jedi's restraint on emotion is seen to the Sith as mental imprisonment, and to the Empire as sanctimonious. TOR makes clear that the Republic are enemies, and to the people of the Empire they are to be feared.

 

In NO Imperial class story or world arc is the 'Empire' the "villain of the story", Darth Thanaton was archaic, and Darth Baras was a usurper - both the Inquisitor and Warrior are clear that defeating them are in their, and the Empire's best interests. As does the Agent, regardless of his/her alignment.

 

Storytelling doesn't mean both sides should lose equally either, just because there are Empire players. Empire is going to lose. You know that going in.

 

Nope, it's clear to any player that neither the Empire nor the Republic are going to lose. For that is no place for a story driven game that accommodates players of both factions to go. When the final ever piece of content is added to TOR, it will not feature the end of the Empire. Of that I am certain.

 

As for Bounty Hunters/Smugglers taking on Jedi/Sith. Why are you limiting it to those two? If you're going by the movies, how does ANYONE who isn't trained in the force able to beat a Jedi/Sith? Jango only held his own for so long and Boba we never really see fight Jedi. Boba at most ensnared Luke, who then broke out of it.

 

This basically comes down to the game needing to accomodate the players.

 

Saying it comes down to "game needing to accommodate the players" is meaningless, as it totally ignores what my original point actually was.

As Anakin memorably pointed out in Revenge of the Sith - Evil is not an objective term, it's a point of view.

You can call it whatever you want, but it still comes with an inherent weakness: its adherents tend to spend entirely too much time positioning themselves so as to stab each other in the back. In the face of a determined external adversary, such internal squabbling is costly and this is what you see in the game.

Isn't it typical for a losing side during a war to start a phase of infighting and power grabs, seeing there's clearly something wrong with the current leadership?

Empire discrimination in SWTOR has bigger range than that. For ex. RoHC trailer - We can only see Republic response. Also in main SWTOR cinematics we can't see Imperial Agent, when all other classes have their episodes. In some of FPs enemies have "links" with Empier - Mandalorian Riders, The Red Ripper. Ofc they are defectors etc but I'm sure that in such huge creation like Galactic Republic must be some groups who don't agree with current political stalemate - I met some kind of this on Balmorra during BH storyline.

The entire Jedi Council except the Grandmaster (and possibly Kiwiks? It's not clear) AND the Supreme Chancellor are killable over the course of the story. At least of all the ones that we see in the game. Edited February 2, 2013 by OldVengeance

I think the event that really hurt things for me is listed below in the spoilers.

 

But as for the rest of the slaughterings... most of the Sith who die were dangerously counterproductive anyway. In fact, all of this would have built up nicely into a crowning moment for the Empire, except I feel Bioware misplayed it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of the enemies for both factions will inevitably be Sith, this is because the Sith are free willed, chaotic and do whatever the heck they please. Hence why you'll never see a Jedi fight another Jedi unless one or both turn to the dark side.

Edited February 4, 2013 by RougeBeaver

The Empire loses the war, and apparently fairly rapidly. As the Imperial "pie" so to speak shrinks, the infighting that is always part of such regimes intensifies as people begin looking out for themselves, trying to delay or prevent their own personal catastrophe.

 

It's simply Sith philosophy manifesting itself.

The Republic has some other down falls as well The Sith warrior kills the war trust,the agent damages the sis.Plus the empire regains strength.The Emperors host body is dead his spirit is Regaining power.Depending on how you make your agent imp intelligence is replaced by sith intelligence.

Ofc they are defectors etc but I'm sure that in such huge creation like Galactic Republic must be some groups who don't agree with current political stalemate - I met some kind of this on Balmorra during BH storyline.

Ord Mantell, the starter planet for smugglers and troopers, is rebelling against the Republic.

Pluck, grit, and determination. It's pretty clear that all of the protagonists are "strong" in the Force, even if they can't see, or use it.

 

 

Every character can use the Force.

 

At least if u finished one Jedi / Sith class story every other characters in your legacy will receive a Jedi / Sith power. My Trooper and Smuggler can use Legacy Force Project and Legacy Sweep - under Heroic Moment. So in rare occasions non-Jedi toons can use Force abilites.

Conversely, the Imperials kill no members of the Jedi Council (bar the First Son, a servant of the Emperor) - and only get to kill the unimportant 'Green Jedi Council'

Apart from this guy, you mean.

 

And possibly these two, depending on choices made during the Jedi Knight story.

 

Not to mention that the game starts on the premise of the Empire near crushing the Republic in the last war, slaughtering most of the Jedi order during the sacking of Coruscant, six council members included.

 

None at all? Really?

Edited February 8, 2013 by Bleeters

^Good statement. Guess the Republic has lost plenty of their finest. JK Storyline starts with some Jedi dying by Dark Jedi, Trooper meets defection of one of the Republic's finest squad at the start. Tides are turning. I don't dislike the Empire losing, playing as an Imperial its finally time people are realising to leave each other alone and focus on our real enemy. I like it.

You also seem to be making the assumption that killing of Dark /Jedi Council members is the primary way of measuring how the war is going which I would strongly dispute.

 

What about the entire fleet the Pubs lose on Taris? Or the task force that the SI destroys as a weapon test? The loss of the Republic High Command to the Wrath - to make that even worse if you pick LS options the Empire "acquires" the technology that - according to the high command will revolutionise warfare and make it impossible for the other side to prosecute the war. The SI arms an entire fleet with one shot kill super weapons.

 

The Empire has been kicked out of the Core Worlds and as you correctly point out lost a lot of Dark Council members in exchange they gain a lot of very promising tech (The Imprisoned One, Belsavis, Wrath on Taris, The Silencer Project, The Black Codex) and the Republic loses a lot of starships, technology (bear in mind the entire JK first act is about finding and destroying the Pub's super weapon programme) and personnel (the entire special forces division for a start).

 

So in summary I would argue the Republic has an advantage at the moment but it cost them a lot and if the Empire's efforts to "acquire" advanced tech begin to pay off in the field this advantage could well prove to be extremely transitory - especially considering the cost in material and personnel they paid to gain it.

I don't really consider myself much of a Star Wars lore buff, but from what I can tell Bioware's got at least 600 years of blank timeline to work with if they want to. And considering that the Empire prepared itself for over a millennium, I somehow doubt that it'd all be completely undone within the course of a few measly decades. After all, the New Sith Wars went on for a 1,000 years, so what's to say this conflict couldn't go on for a few centuries?

 

If I were to guess how things turn out, it'd be something like this: The war goes on for X amount of time, eventually the infighting within the Sith Order causes it to dissolve into smaller, obscure tribes or cults. This could in turn cause the Empire itself to fracture and split into several different factions (Sort of like the Galactic Empire did after Sidious and Vader were killed). These Imperial remnants could then, over the course of time, eventually either be taken down or surrender and be integrated/assimilated into the Republic some time before 2,000 BBY. I'll probably be corrected on this theory, which isn't very lengthy to begin with, but this is simply my speculations. I dunno, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that the Republic manages to wipe out what is essentially an entire civilization (Which they do, considering there's almost no trace of it - besides the ruins on Dromund Kaas, which is an obscure, nearly forgotten planet itself - around the time of the movies) in the course of a couple of years.

 

As for the current in-game conflict? I can see what people mean when they say it's very one-sided. Putting the Great Galactic War (i.e. backstory) aside for a second, Empire players haven't gotten to experience any groundbreaking victories against the Republic, like the Battle for Corellia or Liberation of Balmorra, their experience mostly focusing on infighting and smaller campaigns. I think it'd be great if Bioware threw the Empire a few victories in the future, if only to make the conflict seem a bit more genuine and dramatic, rather than having the Republic just riding a wave of victories all the way to Dromund Kaas. Granted, I haven't played a whole lot on the Republic side (most of my characters being Imps), so what do I know?

A point the OP missed was how the whole Belsavis focus for the Empire, freeing the Dread Masters, pretty much came back to slap the Empire in the face.

 

Acctually, a lot of the infighting led to the rise of new, more competent leaders. I agree I was dissapointed in Darth Malgus' uprising, but it seems like Bioware resurected the spirit of that character in Darth Marr, who may still lead a great imperial comeback. Now being in sole control of the military (it seems like no replacements have been found for Darth Baras or Darth Decimus), he might more efficiently turn this wareffort around, starting with Makeb.

 

There is also the possibility that Darth Mehkis could return from deep space with her super weapons, thus giving the Empire a sudden advantage.

So basicly op, what your asking is 'the lore going to much in favor of....

 

the Republic.

 

two things

 

1. Yes I agree, I find it over done that the two Sith class fight Sith in act 3 and the IA barley fights any Republic forces, while the BH is all about fighting the Republic. 1/4 of the classes. While all Republic classes fight the Empire their act 3 and kill 3 DC members.

 

2. There is a thread about this in the Spoilers section.

 

 

Edit: Why can I not defect as a Smuggler or Trooper? I can defect as a IA (not that I get that unless people like mind controlling wannabe mass murders) and as a BH I can kill my last employer, so why can I not work with the Empire as smuggler? After I kill voidie (or not kill him if that were an option, why not call them and say, hay give me all these ships (plus support facilities) and a free hand in the core and you get a cut. As a Trooper, why not surrender after the Generals speech, say "yeah the government doesn't care about us or the people (something you COULD conclude from Gaza's actions) so I will join you." end like the IA, as a double agent. It seems like a waste to give him this speech and then just ignore it, you may as well have him say how a likes killing things cause it doesn't really matter.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ausstig

As someone who plays Empire more then Rep, I do think it is a bit of a shame that by the end of the main campaign, we have been given a right kicking by both the Reps and in-fighting (Malgus). What was it Darth Marr said at the start of RotHC? The Empire basically only had a month until we were defeated.

 

That being said, I think we are due for a comeback. The ending of RotHC certainly seemed to be hinting at that, and I think the Empire campaign in Makeb was basically a prelude for what is to come. I'm looking forward to seeing how the story progresses.

I'm halfway through most Republic classes, only with my Smuggler at the top - and with no imperial classes except for one experimental level 15 Bounty Hunter - but I just can't see the Republic winning.

 

The Empire gets so many chances, and even when they say that the war on Balmorra is going to be stop at one point - I just can't see it. It indefinitively seems to go on.

 

I just can't see it.

 

But that is partly because the MMO open world structure forbits enemies fading from the battlefield - simply because new SWTOR players would want to play the same class stories their predecessors played before them, too.

But this graphical display of just having no sign at all for an stopping war is just depressing. At least for me.

 

In Adventure games, hiwever, I DO see progress, for example. Or in heavily instanciated games like DDO.

 

I assume that I'm already biased beyond healing (so to say), in that I'm just not able to see ANY major winnings for the republic. I visited the Maelstrom - and then later learned by reading here of a massive failure. By one important character. So all of this fighting, all of this dying has been nothing but in vain.

 

I just can't see it.

Edited August 3, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer