To answer your question though, I don't enjoy guilds with kids. I've been in many family guilds and I've been in adult ones. I have to say that I prefer the adult ones a bit more. I had a horrid experience in one with a 16 year old kid. He was an excellent player but would be argumentative and confrontational. Because of his nature and immaturity, he didn't know when to back down or to drop it. The guild leader's 47 year old girlfriend decided to mother him and it made it exceedingly uncomfortable for everyone in the guild. She would jump on anyone who said something and took the mother hen approach. Between her and this 16 year old, it was problematic. We had several other kids who were better behaved but when they logged on, the whole tone of guild chat would change.

 

I'm sure that there are great folks out there under the age of 18 who are polite, helpful and don't cause problems. I can however understand the age requirements and try to join them.

That approach is dependent on the GM and his officers' decisions. It comes down to bad leadership if everything you described were happening.

More or less, want I really would like to see happen is that younger individuals be given at least a trial period chance. Only the officers would know his/her actual age; therefore it wouldn't affect the rest of the guild. I can say that for one, out of the last 3 or 4 guilds I've joined, not a single person suspected me of being underage. I'm no try-hard actor, but I'm no instigator either. If one thinks before they speak, it makes a world of difference.

I used not have an age requirement in my guild until recently. I had no problems with 16 year olds until the last couple of months.

Point one:

One of my recruiters was talking to a 16 year old and the first thing out of his mouth was what do I get. She thought he was joking until it became clear he wasn't. He insisted on being given things . Needless to say she said we were not interested.

That should have been the end of it but no he kept sending her messages wanting to know why even though she had explained it to him.

Point two:

Another time she was speaking to another 16 year and wanted to know out our roleplay and if we woul be interested in a jedi "mystic" . She said she would discuss it with me and my co-leader but didn't see the problem until he decided to tell her how our guild should rolepaly our toons.

She explained to him politely at first that no one tells anyone how to roleplay and if he was going to come in doing that then he was not material for our guild. Again she figured it was the end of it but no he kept sending her messages until she got fed up and told him one more message she was going to report him and put him on ignore.

We have yet have had these problems with people over the age of 18. If we say they don't fit our guild they thank us and move on.

We have only had this kind of trouble with 16 years so after all this I have put an age restriction on the guild.

In your case that might be true even, but that's because you're ALMOST 18 and really close to satisfy the age requirement. I do agree that it must seem silly to you if you're being rejected for being just a few months too young, but as with all rules, you somewhere have to draw the line and stick to it. If you say that 17.8 years is almost as good as 18 (and you'd be right), the next person would say that 17.6 is almost as good as 17.8 and they'd be right too. Even if it seems to be unfair to you, but it's just as silly that you can have a drink at 20.9 years of age either and have to wait for the remaining weeks to tick off.

When I led that union we came across that rule-bending problem. It comes down to judgement. Yes, in theory they could keep using the "it's close enough" vicious circle to lower the requirements to the point of irrelevance; in practice it's another matter. You make exceptions to the rule, not replacement rules. If you consider 17.8 to be close enough, that does not mean you also consider 14 to be enough.

Only the officers would know his/her actual age; therefore it wouldn't affect the rest of the guild. I can say that for one, out of the last 3 or 4 guilds I've joined, not a single person suspected me of being underage. I'm no try-hard actor, but I'm no instigator either. If one thinks before they speak, it makes a world of difference.

This is actually worse in my opinion. Because by lying you have de-facto put people at risk of the legal ramifications myself and others have listed.

To begin with - let me explain that not knowing someone was a minor does not protect someone - the state will always protect the minor and states that lack of knowledge is not a valid excuse (ie: the person who hooks up with a minor at a club that is supposed to be over 21 because the minor got in with a fake id - not knowing they were a minor even though you had a valid reason not to suspect them to be is not legitimate in the eyes of the law)

So lets say there is someone over 18 in your guild that makes a romantic connection with you believing you are also over 18. You never disclose your age for fear of losing both the romantic connection and the guild. Your parents find your correspondence with this person and press charges. Do you see how allowing anyone under age creates liability for everyone older.

Its not just about you.

G_

In our guild, we follow the COPPA.

You have to be 13+ since you're required to join our forums.

We DO allow under 13, but they have to have a parent / legal guardian mail / fax a consent form.

For those unfamiliar with COPPA -

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm

For other guilds that require 18+ it's usually for similar legal reasons.

Many states etc... it's illegal to use sexual innuendos, drug references etc... with / around minors. And though it might not seem a "big deal" to you, the minor's parents / guardians may not see it the same way.

(For reference, those things are forbidden in our guild's Guild chat, Vent etc... [as well as on the other games / game servers run by the guild's parent orginization].)

I used not have an age requirement in my guild until recently. I had no problems with 16 year olds until the last couple of months.

 

"..."

 

We have yet have had these problems with people over the age of 18. If we say they don't fit our guild they thank us and move on.

 

We have only had this kind of trouble with 16 years so after all this I have put an age restriction on the guild.

Hypothetically, If I had joined your guild before you enacted the age restriction and behaved similarly to the adult members of the guild, would you remove me after the other underage people messed it up?

This is actually worse in my opinion. Because by lying you have de-facto put people at risk of the legal ramifications myself and others have listed.

 

To begin with - let me explain that not knowing someone was a minor does not protect someone - the state will always protect the minor and states that lack of knowledge is not a valid excuse (ie: the person who hooks up with a minor at a club that is supposed to be over 21 because the minor got in with a fake id - not knowing they were a minor even though you had a valid reason not to suspect them to be is not legitimate in the eyes of the law)

 

So lets say there is someone over 18 in your guild that makes a romantic connection with you believing you are also over 18. You never disclose your age for fear of losing both the romantic connection and the guild. Your parents find your correspondence with this person and press charges. Do you see how allowing anyone under age creates liability for everyone older.

 

Its not just about you.

 

G_

What about emancipation?

I'd never join a guild NOT having an age requirement of at least 18. The "kids can be mature" crowd is completely missing the point. Yes, kids can be NICE. They can't be MATURE. Maturity isn't about the absence of rude language or Chuck Norris jokes. It's about experience in life. I am 40 years old. I will tell you a secret - I don't want to chat with my guildies about high school, teachers and clubbing. Those topics stopped being remotely interesting for me one or two decades ago. I will talk about work life, running a household, being a parent and stuff like that - which a person under 18 CAN'T have any clue or interest about. That's why I prefer to be in a community with other people in my age bracket. And that's the point behind age requirements and not that people can keep their language in check.

Love everything you said and agree with 100%

The younger people have NO idea what it is like to raise older kids to be married to have to pay real bills own a house.

That approach is dependent on the GM and his officers' decisions. It comes down to bad leadership if everything you described were happening.

 

More or less, want I really would like to see happen is that younger individuals be given at least a trial period chance. Only the officers would know his/her actual age; therefore it wouldn't affect the rest of the guild. I can say that for one, out of the last 3 or 4 guilds I've joined, not a single person suspected me of being underage. I'm no try-hard actor, but I'm no instigator either. If one thinks before they speak, it makes a world of difference.

Actually that is considered lying to the guild. Now maybe some guilds may be okay with it but some will not. If a person joins whether on a trial basis or not my guild will know the truth of it from the beginning. We do not lie to one another.

Hypothetically, If I had joined your guild before you enacted the age restriction and behaved similarly to the adult members of the guild, would you remove me after the other underage people messed it up?

If you hadnt' caused trouble no.

I've always been in 25+yo guilds until my current one that my main toon is in now. As much as I really like everyone in my guild I'm strongly considering leaving it to start my own 25+ guild.

The reasons are:

1) Maturity. Just because someone is good at throwing huge dps/heals around or tanking, doesn't mean that they have the self restraint to make a good raiding partner. Being impetuous causes wipes and I hate wasting hours on end because someone decides that it's a school night and has to save 2.5 seconds skirting around a mob of 50 bad guys which leads to the poor shmuk at the end of the conga line accidentally pulling the mob leading to a TPK. Over and over again...

I like to take my time and see the content, I don't want to miss 2/3 of it because someone wants to show off or make curfew.

2) I'm naturally flirtatious, and so is my partner. I WILL NOT risk either of us being hauled off to jail because someone took something we said seriously when we were sleep deprived and a little tipsy at 4am after a long night of raiding.

3) I like to relax with a few drinks, and I'm not going to be done for corrupting a minor because someones parents heard me babbling on vent.

4) I really really don't like being aggressively hit on by minors because my toon "looks hawt". In the open world I can /ignore. In guild, this creates a problem. It's bad enough when adults get sleezy let alone when kids do it.

5) I have a potty mouth. I'll admit it. I cuss, I flirt, I swear, I berate my mouse and keyboard, and the sons of hutts I'm trying to kill. I really hate when someones parent gets on vent and starts berating me mid raid for not 'minding my language'.

Now, I know that there are a bunch of talented minors out there that love to raid. There are also a bunch of old farts like me who like to get out there and raid. I just don't think I will ever be comfortable mixing the two in a guild setting. I'll happily take minors on raids if they fit our playstyle, but at least if they are invited as a once off I am aware of the age, the situation, the curfew and I can make sure I don't do anything dumb that might get me banned from a game I love until after the minor has gone off to bed.

the internet is about lying. always has been and always will be. this is where i come to lie, i dont lie in real life, but i couldnt care less about any of you, im 420 years old!

and to the guy above me : a parent has actually gotten on vent to tell you to stop cussing? you shouldve come back with be a better parent and get your kid involved in community activities that dont involve developing slothism. and then start cussing at the boss again.

Actually that is considered lying to the guild. Now maybe some guilds may be okay with it but some will not. If a person joins whether on a trial basis or not my guild will know the truth of it from the beginning. We do not lie to one another.

A sin of ommision?

Practically speaking, not all information is prudent to all situations. An example- criminal investigations are closed to the public until the case is closed. Just because someone is a citizen of your country or a member of your guild does not mean you need to share everything with everyone, because the results can be unnecessary or even harmful.

What about emancipation?

So you are going to get a court order (required for emancipation to be valid) so that you can play a video game - I find that somewhat unlikely (somewhat is pronounced HIGHLY as the courts would never view that as sufficient to grant emancipation)

And - sure that would allow a contract to be valid (and you completely bypassed my second argument why a liability disclaimer would be invalid), but would still not protect members of the guild from laws that protect minors from improper language - I think you are too vastly expanding the scope of emancipation.

G_

the internet is about lying. always has been and always will be. this is where i come to lie, i dont lie in real life, but i couldnt care less about any of you, im 420 years old!

 

 

and to the guy above me : a parent has actually gotten on vent to tell you to stop cussing? you shouldve come back with be a better parent and get your kid involved in community activities that dont involve developing slothism. and then start cussing at the boss again.

Oh you have no idea. The emotional blackmail this woman came out with put my mother to shame, and she's an emotional blackmail champion! Alas it wasn't my guild, I was only a new member or I would have booted the person in question straight away (we had no idea that he was that young, we were told he was a couple of weeks away from 18).

A sin of ommision?

 

Practically speaking, not all information is prudent to all situations. An example- criminal investigations are closed to the public until the case is closed. Just because someone is a citizen of your country or a member of your guild does not mean you need to share everything with everyone, because the results can be unnecessary or even harmful.

No. My guild knows the truth. This is not a cirminal investigation. LIke I said some guilds may be okay with it my guild is not. When I find a member lied to us in the beginning they are removed and the truth does have a way of being found out.

You may think its okay to lie I don't and neither do the members of my guild. We have built our guild on trust and honesty.

While age is no guarantee of mature behaviour, it does make for a useful selector/predictor of the odds of someone being mature.

Also, as an older gamer, I don't really have a lot in common with the younger crowd.

Unfortunately, as often happens with age, I've had to make compromises with guild membership.

The age 50+ guild never got off the ground, so I've lowered my standards and am in a guild of young whippersnappers.

YOU KIDS GET YOUR TRICYCLES OFFA MY LAWN!

It's been hard dealing with the thirty year old set's angst and drama, but they really do benefit from our association.

So you are going to get a court order (required for emancipation to be valid) so that you can play a video game - I find that somewhat unlikely (somewhat is pronounced HIGHLY as the courts would never view that as sufficient to grant emancipation)

 

And - sure that would allow a contract to be valid (and you completely bypassed my second argument why a liability disclaimer would be invalid), but would still not protect members of the guild from laws that protect minors from improper language - I think you are too vastly expanding the scope of emancipation.

 

G_

Ahh but the reason for the hypothetical emancipation would of course not be for access to a game. Obviously the courts would throw it out. However, in the case that an adult under the age of 18 were emancipated for other, more legitimate and most likely extremely personal reasons, they would have legally had their rights "activated"; effectively making them a legal adult.

Therefore, the minor protection acts would not pertain or apply to them. Yet they would still be under the age of 18.

No. My guild knows the truth. This is not a cirminal investigation. LIke I said some guilds may be okay with it my guild is not. When I find a member lied to us in the beginning they are removed and the truth does have a way of being found out.

 

You may think its okay to lie I don't and neither do the members of my guild. We have built our guild on trust and honesty.

You missed the point, my suggestion was that it wouldn't be lying in the first place. As a sin of ommission, which is not a sin at all unless the information is pertinent, it would simply be with-holding information. You do not share your address with guildmates unless you know them in person, and even then you would probably use some other form of contact to communicate that info. What line is there between with-holding your address and with-holding your age? They're both contact information.

...I dislike complaining as well, so just so everyone knows, this thread was created purely for responses from the 18+ community on my opinions and thoughts. I would love to hear constructive feedback on my predicament and whatever else comes to mind.

Well, there's a ton to say about this. First things first, it's not fair at all. While you may be a minor that has nothing to do with your level of maturity though, nor does your level of maturity have anything to do with this age restriction.

What it all comes down to is the Devs and ESRB. See, ESRB enforces standards for a game such as clothing colors and textures not match skin tones. The Devs have to make sure that their content remains true to the ESRB standards such as cussing, sexually explicit discussions, ect.

The guilds and all players doing any of this are actually wrong, breaking the ELUA is a violation and can be handled as the Devs see fit... it's just that simple. Anyone as well who says that "That's what a profanity filter is for" is direly wrong, a profanity filter is a way for a game to lower it's ESRB rating by further protecting people from seeing cursing but not limiting players from cussing. They could completely restrict all cussing but that'd lose them customers and people would find ways around it all the same.

So because players could report guild members for all of this, Guild Leaders take the step to restrict those who are the cause of the ESRB ratings. It's not your fault it's society's, if you want someone to get mad at get mad at all the parents who leave their kids infront of the computer like a day care system and then get frantic when the kid stumbles across fetish sites and Andrew Dice Clay performances.

In short, it's not your fault or any of the minors in games. It's not the Guild's fault or the Devs. It's ESRB and parents. I feel for you and I think it's unfair but this is what happens when people start dicking with personal freedoms.

Check this out ESRB Enforcement

1) Maturity. Just because someone is good at throwing huge dps/heals around or tanking, doesn't mean that they have the self restraint to make a good raiding partner. Being impetuous causes wipes and I hate wasting hours on end because someone decides that it's a school night and has to save 2.5 seconds skirting around a mob of 50 bad guys which leads to the poor shmuk at the end of the conga line accidentally pulling the mob leading to a TPK. Over and over again...

 

I like to take my time and see the content, I don't want to miss 2/3 of it because someone wants to show off or make curfew.

This annoys me to no end. I know that people want to get through the content as quickly as possible. However, I despise "shortcuts" that usually result in wipes and causing the group to be at it longer. I found WoW to be the epitome of this mindset. Some poor soul usually lags or aggros a mob---when the inevitable wipe happens, the younger player usually explodes. I'm a pretty patient person and taking a bit of extra time doesn't bother me as much. I find it silly to bypass something that may take you 2 minutes to clear.

I find that SWTOR is pretty good but I've run across the handful of younger players that seem to have this twitchy mindset. My husband and I got yelled at for not doing the death run in the Belsavis 4 person heroic (Old Enemies?). We were---gasp----killing a handful of mobs to get to the boss in the back. This youngster (can only assume they were quite young from their party chat) was raging that normally this only should take 5 minutes. It was our first time doing this particular daily but you would have thought it was the end of the world. I'm glad to see this daily being a 2 person heroic now. My hubby and I take a few extra minutes clearing to the boss and everything is good.

As you say, the maturity factor is a big thing. Although I'm not a potty mouth in game (I'm rather salty in real life, hehe), I find it amusing when someone is chatised for saying something off color or a naughty word when the youngsters are around. In Rift, I belonged to a guild where the chat was expected to stay G rated until 9pm server time. This was a huuuge guild too and someone would always forget and let one slip causing huge drama. After 9pm, the tone would change drastically where people would let their hair down a bit.

You missed the point, my suggestion was that it wouldn't be lying in the first place. As a sin of ommission, which is not a sin at all unless the information is pertinent, it would simply be with-holding information. You do not share your address with guildmates unless you know them in person, and even then you would probably use some other form of contact to communicate that info. What line is there between with-holding your address and with-holding your age? They're both contact information.

Considering age is a requirement for joining? That is not an ommission that is a direct lie and grounds of being removed for lying. JFYI that is covered in our guild rules as well.

Considering age is a requirement for joining? That is not an ommission that is a direct lie and grounds of being removed for lying. JFYI that is covered in our guild rules as well.

It would be under the condition that the only requirement relative to this subject were maturity levels. A pre-existing rule setting an age limit can be maintained, revised, or even removed. If a guild were to do one of these, then if I were a guild leader I would inform my members of the change. Please see my next post, I want it to be seperate and more visible.

This whole thread was created for constructive feedback on an idea of mine. In no way am I telling anyone what they should do; I'm simply offering a suggestion.

Food for thought.

I proudly believe that as humans we are given the right to do as we please, within the limitations of it affecting others' rights. Please do not take this as a demand for you to change your ways, because again it is simply an idea.

You're 8 years too young to join our guild, and I'm happy we have the restriction. Sure we have our share of immature idiots in the guild, but we have a whole lot less than we would if we didn't have an age restriction.

It's about finding a group of players that are in the same point in life to you. We don't want to listen to someone on TS talking about how wasted they got last night at a frat party just as much as we don't want to listen to a 12 year old talk about how unfair his parents are for not letting him play more. That's all there is to it. Is it fair? No. Do we care? Not in the least. This isn't a democracy.