Jump to content

Dread Guard Relic BiS?


Recommended Posts

Considering most of the bosses in the current tier of content do just that (either by having you swap aggro on a single major target between the 2 tanks or by swapping between 2 bosses that specialize in different types of damage dealt), I'd have to wonder why you think they're "bad" when they're actually a better to way to leverage increased survivability when you need it rather than having it up at all times, including those when it's not even useful, which amount to 40-50% of the time on the said bosses.

 

I've always found that I get better performance out of the tanking use relics than I do out of the passive relics on all 3 of my tanks, but I actually *use* them. If you're having a problem with any of the use relics, it's not a problem with the relic itself but the player's reticence to actually use said relic. It's like complaining that a survivability CD isn't strong enough because you don't use it often enough.

 

I don't really have a problem having a Relic to pop now and then, especially as a PT/VG tank - not much to click anyway. So which one is looking good for PT/VG's?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 152
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So which one is looking good for PT/VG's?

 

It depends on the comparative levels of your Shield/Absorb to your Defense. If you've got lower Defense rating compared to your Shield/Absorb, you'll get more out of the Defense relics thanks to the Defense contributions getting hit by DR less (for most VG/PT tanks, this should be true). If the opposite is true (factoring in the proc relic you're probably already packing, which adds a *lot* of Absorb), then you'll want to use the Shield/Absorb one.

 

If you're actually looking for the best numerical contribution over time, however, your best bet is actually the Campaign Shield/Absorb relic since it's the highest rating use tank relic with a 30 sec duration (the Camp use Defense relic is 20 secs and both of the DG use relics are 20 secs as well).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what would be the best relics for a Combat Medic Commando now please? I currently use a War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages and a Matrix Cube.

 

elite war hero (power) and on use power DG

 

What if the EWH is out of easy reach? My CM's valor level is 12, so grinding to 50 valor and getting all the comms is not a quick or simple task. So would the Matrix Cube, the DG heal proc relic or a different non-PVP relic I'm overlooking be the next best option?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't operations bosses have some sort of elemental resistance? If this is taken into account, (assuming that isn't the case for internal damage--I don't know?), is the elemental one still BIS for force users?

 

elemental and internal are not resisted, that is why they proc for less but tend to be the bis for dps classes unless that class has high armor penetration, e.g. gunnery commandos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mending relics are only optimal for Shadow/Sin tanks.

 

They're quite terrible for healers. Stick with the Dread Guard and EWH Boundless Ages relics.

 

As a followup to the question I asked above, I'm trying figure out the why on this and I can only guess that it's the mechanics of it, but if someone could confirm this for me I'd appreciate it...

 

So the heal proc relics are bad for healers because they can proc on anyone they have a healing effect on, so the proc may go off on someone who doesn't need it then be down when it would be useful for the tank. And as such because the Shadow/Assassin heal is for themselves only as it procs off combat stance then when the relic procs it will only proc the heal on them, hence why it's such a large survivability upgrade for them. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding the mechanics of how the heal is assigned off that relic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only have the Kinetic and the on use power ones (although I have about 600 comm's still, so probably could test the elemental one). Only did 1 parse on the combat dummy, just kept the heat signature up and rapid shots/unload to get as many hits in as possible: http://www.torparse.com/a/60928. That came out at 43.4% crit, where as my tech crit is about 38.75%.

 

I also uploaded our incredibly bad night on nim Z&T, before a couple of our connections went to crap on the tanks. If you look at thelonger fights Grav Waves crit % is between 30.43 and 51.52% (http://www.torparse.com/a/61020). Can't really remember back to the basic stats course in uni, but due the small sample size from those longer fights it does look like it is using tech crit. Or I am drawing conclusions where there are none. Hopefully others have more parses that can prove it one way or the other.

 

Might buy the elemental one and parse that this afternoon. See if it is significantly lower.

Edited by Raekor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the EWH is out of easy reach? My CM's valor level is 12, so grinding to 50 valor and getting all the comms is not a quick or simple task. So would the Matrix Cube, the DG heal proc relic or a different non-PVP relic I'm overlooking be the next best option?

 

Your valor level doesn't matter, you just need RWZ and WZ comms to buy them. Easy enough to get enough of both in a few days worth of pvp, just by doing the daily/weekly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your valor level doesn't matter, you just need RWZ and WZ comms to buy them. Easy enough to get enough of both in a few days worth of pvp, just by doing the daily/weekly.

 

Meh, I flat out refuse to do PvP for PvE gear. Just like I don't expect PvP'ers to have to grind out PvE dailies/weeklies for their gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After reading all of this im still confused ...

 

For a PT Pyro i should go for 1 DG 350 power for 30 secs and 1 internal or elemental relic (if we have the 20% armor debuff in the raid, is a kinetic better?)

 

And for commandos 1 DG 350 power for 30 secs and 1 DG Kinetic (since i can armor debuff)

 

Is this "correct"? =)

 

Thanks in advance for any answers.

 

/Kothakk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bought the elemental damage one and did some testing of that: http://www.torparse.com/a/62157

 

Crit percentage never got higher than 23%, so it seems the elemental/energy is force crit and internal/kinetic is for tech crit. I also did a few tests with heat signature, the kinetic one was hitting for 207 even with the 35% armour penetration from my cylinder. So as far as DPS is concerned, only Arsenal Mercs and Gunnery Commandos should get the kinetic one, all other tech user should get internal. All force users should get elemental. That sound about right?

 

Personally I used one on use power and one kinetic as an Arsenal Merc. On my PT I will be getting one on use power and one internal damage one, unless somebody can show something that points to other non-PvP relics.

Edited by Raekor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For a PT Pyro i should go for 1 DG 350 power for 30 secs and 1 internal or elemental relic (if we have the 20% armor debuff in the raid, is a kinetic better?)

I'm curious about this as well... I suppose most AP/Pyro damage is elemental, so the kinetic might be better, but are the proc relics better than the Elite War Hero at all for damage dealers?

 

I'm seeing BiS in this case as 1 DG 350 power clicky + EWH constant power, but I would also greatly appreciate some advice on this.

Edited by NoDayLkeDoomsday
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious about this as well... I suppose most AP/Pyro damage is elemental, so the kinetic might be better, but are the proc relics better than the Elite War Hero at all for damage dealers?

 

I'm seeing BiS in this case as 1 DG 350 power clicky + EWH constant power, but I would also greatly appreciate some advice on this.

 

EWH = 73 power over the DG proc relic. Though I have no parses available to share currently I can tell you that 73 power = 16.79 dmg. And I can tell you that with the amount I proc with my kinetic relic as an arsenal merc Im usually seeing over 30 dps or more during boss fights. So it appears to me that the proc relic is still going to be much better than the pvp relics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi all,

 

nice thread :) gz to all contributors.

 

i am still bugged about on thing that i wasnt able to find around here.

 

i've seen alot of ppl recomend DG elemental relic for marauders/sentinel ... but what about our 100% armor penetration every now and again if we are specced for carnage/combat ? did any1 do the numbers on that ? would that bring the energy one ahead of the elemental one ?

 

i dont want to make assumptions so i am just asking if one of u math wizzes would take the time to look at the cd on that ability and crunch the numbers for it.

 

so carnage marauders / combat sentinels : elemental or energy relic ? (assuming a raid setup with 20% armor pen always up)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi all,

 

nice thread :) gz to all contributors.

 

i am still bugged about on thing that i wasnt able to find around here.

 

i've seen alot of ppl recomend DG elemental relic for marauders/sentinel ... but what about our 100% armor penetration every now and again if we are specced for carnage/combat ? did any1 do the numbers on that ? would that bring the energy one ahead of the elemental one ?

 

i dont want to make assumptions so i am just asking if one of u math wizzes would take the time to look at the cd on that ability and crunch the numbers for it.

 

so carnage marauders / combat sentinels : elemental or energy relic ? (assuming a raid setup with 20% armor pen always up)

 

Kinetic and energy will hit the operations dummy for 207 with the 35% armour penetration from an assault merc's barrel choice, so 20% armour pen always up on a boss isn't enough. Without remember the exact damage values of the proc's with no armour penetration vs 100%, to me it looks like elemental is still slightly better (at best maybe 90 damage over a minute assuming no crits). Somebody with access to testing should be able to clean that up though (I'm at work atm, and don't think I have enough comm's on my Sentinel to test anyway).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So lets do this right and fill in the blanks...

 

BiS Relics (Primary for majority scenarios not the couple special cases) start listing them all together (trying to list popular builds please update if I miss one and I'm majority Imp so I didn't focus on Pub equivalent)...

 

Assassin Tank = DG Relic of Ephemoral Mending and DG Relic of Shield Amplification

Assassin DPS (Madness) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Assassin DPS (Deception) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Sorcerer Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH of Boundless Ages

Sorcerer DPS (Hybrid) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Sorcerer DPS (Madness) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Sorcerer DPS (Lightening) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Mercenary Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH Relic of Boundless Ages

Mercenary DPS (Arsenal) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Powertech Tank = DG Relic of Shield Amplification and EWH Relic of Shrouded Crusader

Powertech DPS (Pyro) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Juggernaught Tank = EWH Relic of Imperiling Serenity x 2

Juggernaught DPS (?) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Marauder (Annihilation) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Marauder (Carnage) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

 

Operative Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH Relic of Boundless Ages

Operative DPS = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Sniper DPS = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So lets do this right and fill in the blanks...

 

BiS Relics (Primary for majority scenarios not the couple special cases) start listing them all together (trying to list popular builds please update if I miss one and I'm majority Imp so I didn't focus on Pub equivalent)...

 

Assassin Tank = DG Relic of Ephemoral Mending and DG Relic of Shield Amplification

Assassin DPS (Madness) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

Assassin DPS (Deception) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

 

Sorcerer Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH of Boundless Ages

Sorcerer DPS (Hybrid) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

Sorcerer DPS (Madness) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

Sorcerer DPS (Lightening) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

 

Mercenary Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH Relic of Boundless Ages

Mercenary DPS (Arsenal) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of the Kinetic Tempest

 

Powertech Tank = DG Relic of Shield Amplification and EWH Relic of Shrouded Crusader

Powertech DPS (Pyro) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Dark Radiance

 

Juggernaught Tank = EWH Relic of Imperiling Serenity x 2

Juggernaught DPS (Vengeance) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

 

Marauder (Annihilation) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

Marauder (Carnage) = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence

 

Operative Heals = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and EWH Relic of Boundless Ages

Operative DPS = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Dark Radiance

Sniper DPS = DG Relic of Boundless Ages and DG Relic of Dark Radiance

 

That is all if the current thinking is correct. I have only tested Kinetic and Elemental, and others have tested Internal. Kinetic and Internal definitely seem to base their crit from tech, Elemental from Force crit. The Energy one doesn't seem to have been tested yet, but the assumption is that as there are already two using tech, it will use force crit. It would only ever be useful for a Rage spec Juggernaut, but I have been told their DPS is lower in an ops environment than Vengeance so I shouldn't bother looking into it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so... some simple math without any actual testing to try to back up my claim that energy might pull ahead.

(gonna use marauder ability names coz its been some time since i played sentinel)

 

from what i understand from testers in this thread the proc is around 6 seconds for mercs and such.

since a carnage mara has many hits per minute i suspect the proc happens even more often since its got 4.5 sec cd, but for the sake of calculating a worse case scenario lets assume 6 seconds, so a max of 10 procs per minute.

 

assuming no crits all the way the elemental one would do:

 

210*10 = 2100 dmg per minute

 

for the energy one:

 

280 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + P)))

 

raid setup with 20% armor pen from other classes,

a hit without gore will hit for

 

280 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + 0))) = 201.6

 

a hit with gore will do 280

 

you can use gore a maximum of 4 times per minute. if only 1 proc is affected by gore the total dmg would be :

 

9*201.6 + 280 = 2094.4

 

if i get 2 procs affected by gore

 

8*201.6 + 2*280 = 1612.8 + 560 = 2172.8 which is greater than the elemental relic dmg by 72.8 per minute.

 

 

so .. if i get 2 gore affected procs per minute the energy one becomes more effective.

real question is ... how many procs will actually be affected by gore... that's what i was going to try to test.

if any1 has any info on this plz let me know. also plz correct me if i have made any mistakes or made wrong assumtions.

 

ps: sorry for the spelling .. i just woke up :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something seems wrong with those numbers, or the operations dummy. If I plug those numbers in for an Arsenal Merc, with no additional armour penetration above the 35% from the cylinder I get 216.3. It only hits for 207 though.

 

Edited version of your formula: 280 * (1-0.35 * (1 - (0.35 + 0))) = 216.3

 

That is if my assumption that these were what your numbers meant Proc Damage * (1-Boss Reduction * (1 - (Armour Pen + Additional Armour Pen)))

Edited by Raekor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes and in my calculations i assumed a raid setup where i would always have 20% armor pen from jugg or similar debuff.

 

so thats the reason for 1- (0.2 + aditional pen)

 

is it wrong ?

 

edit: not sure why yours is hiting that low. i am sure that without armor pen the formula above holds true .. so 35% is the actual dummy armor. i have picked up the formula from this thread .. so ..

Edited by Nanok
Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes and in my calculations i assumed a raid setup where i would always have 20% armor pen from jugg or similar debuff.

 

so thats the reason for 1- (0.2 + aditional pen)

 

is it wrong ?

 

edit: u also used 0.35 twice . the first 0.35 is boss reduction . hmmm did i understand something wrong ? :)

 

I had assumed that the 0.2 was a sniper/jugg etc debuff, so substituted that with 35% armour penetration I get from my cylinder. On the operation dummy with 35% armour penetration the 280 damage relics hit for 207. That formula says they should hit for 216, so either something isn't correct in the formula or the operation dummy has a different armour value. I should probably see if my sniper or jugg has enough comm's for one and test it at 20% to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had assumed that the 0.2 was a sniper/jugg etc debuff, so substituted that with 35% armour penetration I get from my cylinder. On the operation dummy with 35% armour penetration the 280 damage relics hit for 207. That formula says they should hit for 216, so either something isn't correct in the formula or the operation dummy has a different armour value. I should probably see if my sniper or jugg has enough comm's for one and test it at 20% to see.

 

Go a few pages up for the numbers that come up with various levels of armor pen, tested on my guardian in focus spec, 30% instead of merc/man do 35%, but will be close.

 

Was using the kinetic relic instead of energy, but I was testing damage number, not crit rate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...