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Nerfs for...more fun?


Victros

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

let me get this straight .... you give us everything on one ability, then nerf it by 10% because we use it .... here is a revelation for you were still gunna use/spam it :eek:

 

who every came up with the original idea of grav round doing everything, then this abortion must have the IQ of a beef paste sandwich! sorry thats the nicest way i can put it atm :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

 

i wont mention the suvivability nerf in charged barrier, or the AOE nerf in MV :mad::mad:

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What about a solution like this:

 

1. Reduce demolition round's cooldown to 6-9 seconds. Yes, that is a massive change, keep reading.

 

2. Let curtain of fire proc off of demolition round.

 

3. Put the damage reduction buff on Full Auto Rather than grav round. let it stack fairly quickly.

 

4. Let charged barrel proc off of all rounds + maybe full auto.

 

5. Reduce Grav round's damage to whatever number you want. It could be zero for all it matters, because in step 6...

 

6. Set demolition round's damage to WHATEVER NUMBER BALANCES THINGS. We're already using full auto more and gravity round less. Just pick a number that results in the desired sustained dps.

 

6a. change 2-piece set bonus to affect demolition round rather than gravity round.

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1. Do you notice how BW does not have the balls to show us their hard metrics....it is because the actual damage numbers cannot possibly prove these changes as good changes.

 

2. Nerfs like these come from PVP and not PVE....whiners. For weeks I have been watching the damage numbers in PVP, and guess what....commandos are not close to being top dog.

 

3. It really does not explain the nerf to commando healing at all.

 

4. here is what I think happened.....BW looked at the census numbers and said...wow there are a lot of commandos being rolled for the Repub....and thought they needed to curtail that.

 

5. There are strats to avoid grav spam and to take out a gunny trooper. There are no strats to avoid being stun locked and burned down to death, but that happens to me every WZ.

 

6. Funny that there is a severe imp/repub imbalance and yet the heavy nerfs came to repub classes.

 

1.2 decisions in design shows me that BW is lost, that PVE and PVP don't mix, and that imps are favored. Rename this game to SW Sith of the Second Empire.

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let me get this straight .... you give us everything on one ability, then nerf it by 10% because we use it .... here is a revelation for you were still gunna use/spam it :eek:

 

who every came up with the original idea of grav round doing everything, then this abortion must have the IQ of a beef paste sandwich! sorry thats the nicest way i can put it atm :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

 

i wont mention the suvivability nerf in charged barrier, or the AOE nerf in MV :mad::mad:

 

 

I really don't believe this had anything to do with spamming grav round. There simply were too many commandos for BW's liking. This explains why medics and gunny got crippled and vanguards and assault were left alone.

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6. Funny that there is a severe imp/repub imbalance and yet the heavy nerfs came to repub classes.

 

This is just not true. The same changes made to the Commando were the same changes made to the Merc. They got the same nerf we did.

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The Gunnery tree just needs to be wiped clean and redone.

 

Just reference numerous threads in these forums as to why, but I guess I'll reiterate. You didn't change the CORE reason as to why Grav Round is getting spammed. Everything in gunnery is tied to it. It is the CORE ability of a Commando. Changing numbers around isn't fixing it, it's just changing the numbers (for better or worse, worse in this case).

 

what is frustrating is that people were trying to say this all along, but it seemed that no one was listening or cared.

Edited by ArcIon
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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

Want CoF supposed to proc more? Its not on live unless that was removed from the patch.

 

At any rate, this nerf doesn't accomplish what BW says they want it to. Plus, why the nerf to charged barrier? Its not like we were impossible to kill, in fact we're the easiest to kill in the game. Explain please.

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This change has made my gunny into the most fun banker in the game....we get the cool armor and store credits and loot. Tanno still builds the best armormech in the game....who doesn't love talking to Elara, and Our ship droid is AWESOME. Then we get to carry that big gun....yeah it only looks tough, but for a banker looks are enough.

 

With 1.2 I get to put a mailbox in my ship so that makes less moving around and for more fun. I will probably get a ship GTN too...oh the wonderful joy that will bring.

 

With all this new fun for my main class I will be upping for another 6 months at least.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

I'm not be rude here, but this is simply incorrect, I will give you examples of why.

 

Example 1 (An unlikely but still possible rotation): Grav round on 1.5 second cooldown. used repeatedly for 15 seconds yields 10 grav round shots, follows by a demo round on 15 second cooldown. Effectively this nerf 9 out of 10 of our attacks (assuming the 10% reduction and 10% boost to demo round cancel out.

 

Example 2 (Likely commando rotation)

 

1. Grav round (Yeilds 2 armor stack debuffs, 1 CB Buff, 1 DR buff) 1.5 second cast - No CD

2. Grav round (Yeilds 2 armor stack debuffs, 1 CB Buff, 1 DR buff) 1.5 second cast - No CD

3. Grav round (Yeilds 2 armor stack debuffs, 1 CB Buff, 1 DR buff) 1.5 second cast - No CD

4. Demo Round : 15 sec cooldown

5. Full Auto : 3 second cast - 15 second cooldown

6. Grav round (Yeilds 2 armor stack debuffs, 1 CB Buff, 1 DR buff) 1.5 second cast - No CD

7. Grav round (Yeilds 2 armor stack debuffs, 1 CB Buff, 1 DR buff) 1.5 second cast - No CD

8. High Impact Bolt : 15 second cooldown

 

Now we still have 7 seconds between the next demo round coming off cooldown, what are we going to do? well maybe hammer shot if ammo is low. But more likely hit ammo regain for one, then reserve powercell for another and pop off 3 more grav rounds to get charged barrel back up, as such the rotation starts again.

 

Please then explain to me how having effectively 4 out of an 8 attack rotation dmg reduced is not a nerf? (assuming 1 demo increase cancels 1 grav nerf)

 

Again I'm not trying to be rude, disrespectful ect, the fact remains that this is a nerf and it should be called as such because the amount we have to use grav round to max dps has not changed while it's dmg has.

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If they just buffed curtain of fire to a 100% chance then we'd only use grav round a maximum of twice per full auto, and at least 2 times every 15 seconds we'd only use it once before another full auto.
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I have a vanguard that is tactics specced (the middle tree that most people do not use). Pretty much my only attacks are ion pulse, fire pulse (15 sec cd) and pulse cannon (15 sec cd). It is actually better to avoid gut and high impact bolt because it reduces your DPS (and high impact bolt actually needs you to gear accuracy).

 

Does this mean vanguard tactics should change too?

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I have a vanguard that is tactics specced (the middle tree that most people do not use). Pretty much my only attacks are ion pulse, fire pulse (15 sec cd) and pulse cannon (15 sec cd). It is actually better to avoid gut and high impact bolt because it reduces your DPS (and high impact bolt actually needs you to gear accuracy).

 

Does this mean vanguard tactics should change too?

 

When all the commandos change over to vanguard you will see vanguards being nerfed. I am convinced this nerf was not about play style or OP, but because there were just too many commandos. This is why the medic got butt ****ed as well.

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And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

Just picked up on the area i highlighted .... one question, Dose this mean that you dont really know or are not too sure, if it is a rebalance or a nerf??? :confused::confused:

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Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

So since 1.2 PvP only meets 2 of your 3 requirements for tweaking (bad and not fun) can we assume that we're stuck with it?

 

I'm calling it effective in that it puts opposing factions in close enough proximity to kill each other.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

I Really noticed what this change did, you did broaden the rotation spectrum to a degree but I do not believe you balanced the classes as at all as the underlying changes in the amount of damage "Heavy Armor" can take. Either knowingly or unknowingly you have NERFED the hell out of Heavy armor survialbility. A DPS NERF coupled with a Armor nerf makes the class practically usless. except for healing.

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Yeah the Grav Round change was redicilous. One day I was hitting for 1k to 1.6k with crits, the next I can barely hit for 1k, lucky to get in the 700s.

 

So I switch over to medic, and guess what? Im superbad there to.

 

One day I could get the 2.5k heal medal in a few minutes of blasting heals. Now It takes almost a full match to get that. And then Im usually the lowest healer on the totem pole.

 

Not only that, but Im super squishy. Against a baddy I can stay alive for a good long time, but then Im running out of ammo and FAST.

 

I was really getting into my commando, then this patch came out. I just dont want to go through your beginning content.

 

That mean I should just leave the game?

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Frankly, I've been trying to level a Commando and I'm really glad they are making some of these changes. Spamming grav round non stop is boring. The devs are right about this and the rotation needs more variety. I am glad they are trying to encourage more use of demo round and full auto because one button rotations are not fun.

 

While levelling my commando in the 30's it isn't worth using any ability other than grav round on single targets. Even high impact bolt with a full stack of charged barrel isn't really hitting any harder than my grav round. It's barely worth the global cooldown.

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Frankly, I've been trying to level a Commando and I'm really glad they are making some of these changes. Spamming grav round non stop is boring. The devs are right about this and the rotation needs more variety. I am glad they are trying to encourage more use of demo round and full auto because one button rotations are not fun.

 

While levelling my commando in the 30's it isn't worth using any ability other than grav round on single targets. Even high impact bolt with a full stack of charged barrel isn't really hitting any harder than my grav round. It's barely worth the global cooldown.

 

 

I think many commando gunny players have failed to see the enormity of the problem. You see they did nothing to remove the 'spam of grav round'. You still need to do it because all procs depend on it, and cool downs of other abilities leave nothing but grav available. But we can use our explosive round.....commandos need to conserve ammo to maintain constant DPS and not end up with nothing to shoot......explosive round goes through ammo quickly.

 

If explosive round got a boost but the gunny grav round got nerfed, doesn't that really mean you should play any variant of a trooper other than a gunny? As I see it they just made vanguard dps that much stronger...which they were prior to 1.2

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Frankly, I've been trying to level a Commando and I'm really glad they are making some of these changes. Spamming grav round non stop is boring. The devs are right about this and the rotation needs more variety. I am glad they are trying to encourage more use of demo round and full auto because one button rotations are not fun.

 

While levelling my commando in the 30's it isn't worth using any ability other than grav round on single targets. Even high impact bolt with a full stack of charged barrel isn't really hitting any harder than my grav round. It's barely worth the global cooldown.

 

What do you suggest we use while Demo and FA are on cooldown? Throw dirt at the enemy? And how do you expect to increase the damage of Demo Round and HiB and proc CoF? And don't say "use Charged Bolts bro, be a rebel and spec full Gunnery but don't use the ability that nearly EVERYTHING IN THAT SPEC IS TIED TO."

 

If Gunnery is that boring to you, go play another spec or another class, BioWare made this spec boring go tell them how bad they are. Good luck.

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The whole reason for this change was to nerf Healer/HYBRID troopers that only used Grav round as their one and only attack...with everythying else in survivability skills (something like 25/14/2)

 

Those players who abused grav/tracer spamming hybrids still only performed to 75% of the level a good 31 pointer did, but in terms of being effective and idiot proof..it was an easy go-to build for Pre-mades.

 

Bioware hit those hybrids hard and was sorely needed if inspired by PVP more than PVE.

 

31 point specs got buffs along with nerfs which balanced things out.

 

I can also say that Assault/Pyro is still *almost* as effective as pre-1.2, the nerf to ionic accelerator/prototype particle accelerator wasnt felt by Commandos and Mercs as much as it was felt by Vanguards and Powertech hybrids.

 

So basically... all of biowares changes to our class was aimed at hybrids, my suggestion is to re-roll a 31 point build of either of the 2 dps trees.

 

Other classes viable hybrid builds also got smacked hard. Sage/Sorc and Smuggler/Operative hybrids also got nerfed.

 

1.2 would have been more appropriatly named 1.2 : Hybrid killer (or 1.2: Credit sink) but it is what it is.

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Commando and mercenary are not viable classes for rated pvp.

 

reduced aoe, reduced survivability, reduced dps.

 

out of touch developer says"not a nerf, we made the class more diverse and fun" which is true, if your not playing it.

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Commando and mercenary are not viable classes for rated pvp.

 

reduced aoe, reduced survivability, reduced dps.

 

out of touch developer says"not a nerf, we made the class more diverse and fun" which is true, if your not playing it.

 

You just snuck "diverse" into this thread. 5 points for "buzz-word usage" and 5 bonus points calling the devs at Bioware out of touch, I thought I was the only one who felt that way about the think-tank dev group we have ruining our game.

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The whole reason for this change was to nerf Healer/HYBRID troopers that only used Grav round as their one and only attack...with everythying else in survivability skills (something like 25/14/2)

 

Those players who abused grav/tracer spamming hybrids still only performed to 75% of the level a good 31 pointer did, but in terms of being effective and idiot proof..it was an easy go-to build for Pre-mades.

 

Bioware hit those hybrids hard and was sorely needed if inspired by PVP more than PVE.

 

31 point specs got buffs along with nerfs which balanced things out.

 

I can also say that Assault/Pyro is still *almost* as effective as pre-1.2, the nerf to ionic accelerator/prototype particle accelerator wasnt felt by Commandos and Mercs as much as it was felt by Vanguards and Powertech hybrids.

 

So basically... all of biowares changes to our class was aimed at hybrids, my suggestion is to re-roll a 31 point build of either of the 2 dps trees.

 

Other classes viable hybrid builds also got smacked hard. Sage/Sorc and Smuggler/Operative hybrids also got nerfed.

 

1.2 would have been more appropriatly named 1.2 : Hybrid killer (or 1.2: Credit sink) but it is what it is.

 

I've been 31 point gunnery since I hit 50, I've never abused hybrid spec. This nerf hurts. We lost a lot of survivability, which wasn't great to begin with, and we lost a ton of damage.

 

You also forgot that they ignored hybrid sins and shadows when they started swinging the nerf bat. They could have easily nerfed hybrid specs by moving around talents without crippling the primary spec like they did.

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You cant just nerf one skill and then think we will use it less often.

 

For future referense, NO, you cant move debuff/buff procs over to other skills and think you can make us use more skills. We will have to use twice as many skills to build the same amount of stacks and severly lower our dps which is already appaling

 

Theres so much wrong with commando gunnery right now.

 

Low dps

No survivability

No escape from melee skills

Few utilities, some utilities like knocback even helps some enemies, like marauders.

Worst AoEs

Easy interuptable and locked down

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