And you only seem to read ONE LINE of any post I put up there. No, I'm not a "Jedi hater" as you put it. The Jedi were all well and good until they started misinterpreting the Jedi Code and banning everything. They put people in an unnatural situation by denying their humanity, and very few people can live under those conditions and thrive. I love what Luke did with the NJO, and wish it had always been like that.

 

Unfortunately, George Lucas had to stick his nose into the Expanded Universe and make them change the Code to what it is now. Only purpose of that, to the best of my knowledge, would be the Prequels and how the Jedi banned marriage there. It played a pivotal role in the fall of Anakin to the Dark Side.

Just one problem though Capt, theres never any mention of any jedi code in the PT. Even if there was, more then likely the jedi would follow the first format of the jedi code rather then the latter. Yet even so, both codes are pretty much one and the same theres real no difference to them other then wording.

Just one problem though Capt, theres never any mention of any jedi code in the PT. Even if there was, more then likely the jedi would follow the first format of the jedi code rather then the latter. Yet even so, both codes are pretty much one and the same theres real no difference to them other then wording.

Actually, the interpretations are completely different from the "yet" Code to the "There is no" version. George himself made them change it and retconned the original. Only reason I can see for that would be the restrictive nature of the revised code compared to the more allowable nature of the original.

Let's face it. "There is no" doesn't leave much apparent room for interpretation, which was most probably George Lucas's plan all along. By the PT, the Jedi had stagnated from centuries of relative peace before the Naboo incident and Clone Wars. They were nowhere near ready for a Sith of Palpatine's power.

And you only seem to read ONE LINE of any post I put up there.

No I read the whole thing. I just didn't bother responding to it. Because you seem to either intentionally misunderstand what the Jedi are like in this era or haven't actually played one.

The Jedi were all well and good until they started misinterpreting the Jedi Code and banning everything.

The Jedi in this game do not ban everything, they only put restrictions on things that are likely to lead people to fall to the dark side.

Jedi are not asked to deny their humanity, express no emotions, or the rest. That is nothing but pure BS put forth by people who seem to have sort of anti-jedi bias, and will twist every single thing they see to fit that bias. They also seem to make a point of avoiding all the other stuff that will counter their opinions.

You clearly seem to share this anti-jedi bias based on your posts. Every bit of evidence provided that is counter to your opinion you either dismiss or ignore. You even claim that someone who posts a number of examples that are counter to your opinion are twisted into lies.

It played a pivotal role in the fall of Anakin to the Dark Side.

The fact that romance was banned, had next to nothing with the fall of Anakin. It was his fear of losing people that lead him to the dark side. Which is exactly what Yoda said about him in ep1.

Actually, the interpretations are completely different from the "yet" Code to the "There is no" version. George himself made them change it and retconned the original. Only reason I can see for that would be the restrictive nature of the revised code compared to the more allowable nature of the original.

 

Let's face it. "There is no" doesn't leave much apparent room for interpretation, which was most probably George Lucas's plan all along. By the PT, the Jedi had stagnated from centuries of relative peace before the Naboo incident and Clone Wars. They were nowhere near ready for a Sith of Palpatine's power.

But when did this change take place?....Because in the PT "There is no" thing doesn't make any sense because all the jedi in the movies were having emotion in them thus they broke their own rules. The only thing that was clear, was that jedi weren't aloud to marry and they weren't aloud to get personal feelings in the way. Thats pretty much it, there was no jedi code in the PT movies. Or at the very least, the original jedi code was still around during the PT and the "There is no" was added after the movies were all said and done with.

No I read the whole thing. I just didn't bother responding to it. Because you seem to either intentionally misunderstand what the Jedi are like in this era or haven't actually played one.

 

 

The Jedi in this game do not ban everything, they only put restrictions on things that are likely to lead people to fall to the dark side.

 

Jedi are not asked to deny their humanity, express no emotions, or the rest. That is nothing but pure BS put forth by people who seem to have sort of anti-jedi bias, and will twist every single thing they see to fit that bias. They also seem to make a point of avoiding all the other stuff that will counter their opinions.

 

You clearly seem to share this anti-jedi bias based on your posts. Every bit of evidence provided that is counter to your opinion you either dismiss or ignore. You even claim that someone who posts a number of examples that are counter to your opinion are twisted into lies.

 

 

 

The fact that romance was banned, had next to nothing with the fall of Anakin. It was his fear of losing people that lead him to the dark side. Which is exactly what Yoda said about him in ep1.

By the time of the Prequels, romance and attachments as well as marriage had been banned completely, with the exception of ONE Jedi Master who was allowed to have a family due to his species being in jeopardy of going extinct.

I disagree with the Jedi Code, and don't believe the Council should take it so literally. That doesn't mean I hate Jedi. I've played the Knight storyline all the way through, fyi. For pure Epic, it's probably the best. For having to put up with all the nonsense the Council throws at you, not so much. The male Knight / Kira romance sheds quite a bit of light on the Jedi's restrictions on romance and marriage, if you would bother to play through it.

But when did this change take place?....Because in the PT "There is no" thing doesn't make any sense because all the jedi in the movies were having emotion in them thus they broke their own rules. The only thing that was clear, was that jedi weren't aloud to marry and they weren't aloud to get personal feelings in the way. Thats pretty much it, there was no jedi code in the PT movies. Or at the very least, the original jedi code was still around during the PT and the "There is no" was added after the movies were all said and done with.

Actually, when KotOR was written, it was after the Tales of the Jedi with the original code in it, and Lucas had already made his change. He changed it after Phantom Menace, probably since someone pointed it out to him that the Jedi wouldn't ban marriage based on the original code.

if you would bother to play through it.

I have a lvl 50 Jedi who's played though the whole story.

The reason that the Jedi bars relationships is because they can lead to the dark side, and not just because they can't think or are stupid, or a bunch of meanie heads.

They look at relationships the same way a sane person looks at a loaded hand gun. Acknowledging that such a thing can bring a whole lot of destruction if it's not handled correctly. When you consider what Dark Jedi can do, such a thing is even more destructive.

The only sensible and reasonable thing to do is limit the potential as much as possible. To simply let every Jedi have relationships with anyone and no limits on it, is a bit like giving a loaded gun to a someone to play with.

Depends on your interpration of the Code. I see it as a guide and I have seen it explained where the code makes a little more sense than the way it is said

This explanations makes the Code easier to understand when you take it line of the Code and try to understand it. It never means a Jedi will never have emotion because even Obi-Wan and Yoda were upset at the death of the younglings and Obi-Wan was also upset that he was sent to confront Anakin. They had emotions but they did not let the emotions cloud their judgment and what they had to do.

The Jedi Code, stated, removes the human element and shows what is left. Yet it does not say that is how one should act. It does not say Act with No Emotion. Instead it shows us the error in heedlessly following our human nature. Emotion clouds peace, ignorance overshadows knowledge, passion distorts serenity, chaos destroys harmony, death hides the Force. Now lets bring this all together and look at each line of the Jedi Code and how it exactly guides a Jedi in daily life.

There is no emotion; there is peace. A Jedi acts and reacts in a calm manner, not allowing the emotions they are feeling to cloud their judgment, reasoning, and objective.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. A Jedi faces each new challenge with the opportunity to gain more knowledge. They do not fear the unknown, but take the chance to learn about the unknown.

There is no passion; there is serenity. A Jedi does not allow their passions in life to affect their judgment, reason, or objectives. A Jedi acts and reacts keeping a serene mind, unaffected by their personal desire.

There is no chaos; there is harmony. A Jedi seeks moderation and balance with all things. Even though life can be very chaotic a Jedi finds harmony with that chaos. Balance in the world around them, balance within themselves, the middle-ground in each situation, and even on a larger scale harmony between technology and nature.

And lastly there is no death; there is the Force. A Jedi understands that the Force is created and associated with life. Yet death is also a natural part of life. For a Jedi there is no fear of death. For death is merely one more unknown, another chance for the Jedi to gain knowledge about the Force itself.

They should actually strive for peace in any argument or hostile situation. They should have knowledge on a wide variety of subjects, with first hand experience, and seek to remove ignorance; personal or otherwise.

They have overcome chaos, and when met with it are able to find harmony in all things, all aspects of life

Also with regard to a Jedi Marriage/Romance there are some points to bring out:

It is not forbidden, just restrictive in this time periold. Love/marriage a jedi can have provided:

1. They get go to the council and discuss it and get permission

2. Have been able to prove that their relationship will not cause them to forget their duty and or responsbililty.

3. Able to accept that death may occur and in such circumstances they have to be able to handle the deah of their lover/spouse in such a way that they respect the Jedi Order and their spouse/love.

And from what I've seen on a romance/marriage based on information from friends who have played both Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular the restrictions on romance/marriage greatly depend on if you are romancing another Jedi or a non-Jedi.

A friend of mine has played a Shadow (lv 46) and no where in her flirting/romancing Iresso has she ever gotten dark side points. She also said that in the romance part of this it was explained that the Order would have no problem with a romance if the Jedi has proven herself/himself capable of handling the marriage.

And you just twisted up the ENTIRETY of Chapter 1 to fit your own view. Bravo, sir. Well played!

 

The ONLY point I'm going to correct you on is the Alderaan part. The rest, well, there's nothing I could say to change your mind. Anyhow, as to Alderaan:

If the GAME MECHANICS had allowed me to NOT kill all those idiot Jedi that attacked me first, I would have been more than happy with that. Also, kidnapping the parents was NOT the only LS choice, and you know it! I offered them a place in the Empire along with enough money to keep them comfortable for a good long time, and they accepted.

 

 

That said, you seem to assume that somewhere along the way, I initiated combat. I never initiated combat with a Jedi, and always sought a peaceful solution whenever possible.

I twisted up nothing. Maybe you're the one interpreting the chapter incorrectly to suit your view that 95% of the Jedi are hypocrites, which would be a dubious claim even if you were right about all the individuals in it.

I am not sure why this has not been mentioned BUT;

I had the choice to do "the right thing" on Tython, and was supported for my decisions by my master and the Jedi Council, even where I acted directly against their advice.

I suppose this thread is about "council" hypocrisy, rather than "Jedi" hypocrisy as individual Jedi are not executed for helping the flesh eaters or the illegal settlers.

I have a lvl 50 Jedi who's played though the whole story.

 

The reason that the Jedi bars relationships is because they can lead to the dark side, and not just because they can't think or are stupid, or a bunch of meanie heads.

 

They look at relationships the same way a sane person looks at a loaded hand gun. Acknowledging that such a thing can bring a whole lot of destruction if it's not handled correctly. When you consider what Dark Jedi can do, such a thing is even more destructive.

 

The only sensible and reasonable thing to do is limit the potential as much as possible. To simply let every Jedi have relationships with anyone and no limits on it, is a bit like giving a loaded gun to a someone to play with.

A loaded gun.... REALLY??? WOW!!! A loaded gun... pardon me while I ROFL for a few minutes...

Ok, now that THAT's over with, the Jedi Council has misinterpreted the Jedi Code since who knows when. They want to make everything as restrictive as possible on the Knights under their command. They believe that the tighter reign they have, the more their people will obey. They act out of fear.

That line if reasoning is extremely flawed, as you should very well know. How many Jedi fell because the Council was holding them back, or refused to act when the Republic was threatened? How many times did a Jedi do his or her best to follow the Council's interpretation of the Code, yet ended up falling because they just couldn't do it? Freedom is important to all people. If that freedom is taken away, no matter how guilded the cage, it's still a cage.

Allow me to paraphrase Princess Leia here: "The more you tighten your grip...." I really hope you get the point, there, since that quote can be applied to Jedi as easily as it can to star systems.

Which brings me back to how Luke runs the NJO, and how it's a lot better than how things were handled previously.

The old Council would have just banned everything having to do with relationships after a Jedi went Old Testament on those who killed his wife and/or kids. Luke deals with each case on an individual basis instead of punishing everyone for one Jedi's screw-up. His lack of hypocrisy is a testament to how the Jedi ALWAYS should have been.

In fact, I believe the old Jedi Order had more fear than the Sith Empire. They just pretended they didn't.

I twisted up nothing. Maybe you're the one interpreting the chapter incorrectly to suit your view that 95% of the Jedi are hypocrites, which would be a dubious claim even if you were right about all the individuals in it.

 

 

It doesn't really matter what happens to the Wilsaams on Dromund Kaas. You are still forcibly coercing them away from their home to some foreign enemy nation. I'd call that kidnapping, even if you make their stay comfortable. The "peaceful" solution is for you to let them be, but you can't because you're under orders from Barras to deal with them somehow. Also the Organa guards attacked you on sight because you were an enemy soldier trespassing on their territory. Why wouldn't they attack?

Ok, I'll bite. Yes, I must have twisted up everything by playing a LIGHT SIDE SITH! OMG the HORROR!!! That the Jedi, who preach peace and love for all, yet pull the ol' Captain Kirk on ya ("We come in peace! Shoot to kill!) should just ignite their lightsabers and go against everything they were taught! Right? That is what you're advocating right there. Btw....

Ok, I'll bite. Yes, I must have twisted up everything by playing a LIGHT SIDE SITH! OMG the HORROR!!! That the Jedi, who preach peace and love for all, yet pull the ol' Captain Kirk on ya ("We come in peace! Shoot to kill!) should just ignite their lightsabers and go against everything they were taught! Right? That is what you're advocating right there. Btw....

 

 

I had just fought off Ulgo forces on Organa's behalf before going in to see Jaesa's parents. A LITTLE bit of consideration would have been nice there instead of having to fight my way in!

You seem to think that Jedi need to avoid all and any conflict at all costs in order to not be hypocrites. I just described how most situations where Jedi encountered the Sith Warrior were ones where they were justified in fighting. The only one where it was unnecessary was Tatooine.

Jedi aren't supposed to be pacifists. Otherwise why would they even have combat training?

You seem to think that Jedi need to avoid all and any conflict at all costs in order to not be hypocrites. I just described how most situations where Jedi encountered the Sith Warrior were ones where they were justified in fighting. The only one where it was unnecessary was Tatooine.

 

Jedi aren't supposed to be pacifists. Otherwise why would they even have combat training?

Who was it that said "A lightsaber is for defense, never for attack"? I do believe it was a Jedi. Also, I never said Jedi couldn't defend themselves. They are not supposed to seek out combat according to their teachings, however. Have you played through the BH storyline at all? If so, I bring your attention to Jun Seros and his Jedi death squads.

Besides, Chapter 1 is BEFORE the war kicks off again.

Who was it that said "A lightsaber is for defense, never for attack"? I do believe it was a Jedi. Also, I never said Jedi couldn't defend themselves. They are not supposed to seek out combat according to their teachings, however. Have you played through the BH storyline at all? If so, I bring your attention to Jun Seros and his Jedi death squads.

 

Besides, Chapter 1 is BEFORE the war kicks off again.

So a thief or a murderer or a warlord should never be brought to justice unless they personally attack a Jedi first? The Sith Warrior is already pursing a dangerous agenda by hunting a young Padawan with orders to murder her. Darth Barras is already attacking the Jedi Order and the Sith Warrior is the instrument by which he does so.

I'm still on Tatooine with my Bounty Hunter character.

So a thief or a murderer or a warlord should never be brought to justice unless they personally attack a Jedi first? The Sith Warrior is already pursing a dangerous agenda by hunting a young Padawan with orders to murder her. Darth Barras is already attacking the Jedi Order and the Sith Warrior is the instrument by which he does so.

 

I'm still on Tatooine with my Bounty Hunter character.

Ok, let's play Space Cops with the Jedi. They ARE, in fact, Republic Space Cops, Military Commanders, and Diplomats, when broken down into their basic roles. Now, does a cop draw down on a dangerous criminal?

Yes.

Does a cop draw down, place his finger on the trigger with intent to fire on a calm citizen who has made no move towards his weapon and has every right to be standing there?

Good cops don't. Igniting a lightsaber is the Jedi equivalent of placing finger on trigger with intent to fire.

Tatooine and Alderaan at the time of TOR were not in the Galactic Republic. There goes the Jedi's jurisdiction right there. They had no authority as peace officers to physically intervene in the Alderaanian Civil War, making them in effect criminals by their own definition. Also, since it was NOT a time of declared war, they had no business being there in a military capacity.

Now, IF the Jedi had only been on Alderaan as diplomats and advisors, that would be different. Their other main role in the Republic is in the Diplomatic corps. But sending Jedi strike teams against Thul and Ulgo targets violated the Jedi charter. Just because the Republic looked the other way, didn't make it right. Not only did they go against their Republiic charter by interfering on a neutral world that had seceded from the Republic, but they also violated THEIR OWN code of ethics by doing so and taking a side in the civil war on a neutral planet.

Having grown up during the last couple decades of the RL Cold War, I can state that Incidents Happen. The problem is, this is Star Wars, and the Jedi are supposed to be held to a higher standard. They hold themselves to a higher standard, in fact.

To say the Jedi AREN'T hypocrites is just not possible under those circumstances.

Well actually Capt, don't think no one ever said "A lightsaber is for defense, never for attack"...I recall Yoda saying

"A jedi uses The Force, for knowledge and defense never for attack."

Just to be clear. Which makes sense that he didn't say lightsaber, since a lightsaber to a jedi/sith should be nothing more then a tool. The Force is a jedi/sith's true weapon.

Well actually Capt, don't think no one ever said "A lightsaber is for defense, never for attack"...I recall Yoda saying

 

"A jedi uses The Force, for knowledge and defense never for attack."

 

Just to be clear. Which makes sense that he didn't say lightsaber, since a lightsaber to a jedi/sith should be nothing more then a tool. The Force is a jedi/sith's true weapon.

Thanks. Long day at work. I sorta figured I had that one wrong, but didn't feel like looking it up. lol

Here are some quotes that may help show that even though some tend to do things wrong it is not 95% of the jedi. Jedi make mistakes, we all do. The jedi that says he or she never makes a mistake is the one I would run far away from.

Deliver more than you promise. The best way to be always certain of this is to deliver much, even when you promise nothing." ―Tho-Mes Drei

"When a Jedi behaves badly in public, an observer might think, 'If this Jedi is a representative of the whole Order, then plainly no Jedi is worth respect.' On meeting a second Jedi, who behaves better than the first, that same person might think, 'Does this say that half the Jedi are good, and half bad?' On meeting a third Jedi, who behaves as well as the second, the person thinks, 'Was the first Jedi an exception, then?' In this way, only by the good behavior of several Jedi can the public be certain that the poor behavior of one Jedi was unusual. Thus, it takes many Jedi to undo the mistakes of one." ―Odan-Urr

"Learn to recognize when speed is not important. Race when being first is important; move at your own pace at all other times. It is not necessary to always strike the first blow, to provide the first solution, or to reach a goal before anyone else does. In fact, it is sometimes vital to strike the last blow, to give the final answer, or to arrive after everyone else." ―Wiwa

"Do not see a lightsaber duel as a choice between winning and losing. Every duel can have many, many outcomes. When you concentrate solely on winning—in lightsaber duels as in everything else—you sully your victory. Winning becomes worse than losing. It is better to lose than to win badly. And it is always better to end a duel peacefully than to win or lose" ―Rekpa De

"Overconfident thinking is flawed because the Jedi does not take all possibilities into account. He may understand the task at hand, the support of his fellows, and the ramifications of his success, and he may have even planned for unanticipated factors—but he has failed to understand his own capabilities. He has planned only for success, because he has concluded that there can be no failure. Every Jedi, in every task, should prepare for the possibility of failure." ―Vodo-Siosk Baas

"The acceptance of others is not a guarantee. Like everyone else, a Jedi is accepted or not based on his behavior. The Jedi who believes that he is more important than others only demonstrates that his opinion is to be ignored." ―Dooku

"Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side’, but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good—it's simply what it is." ―Barriss Offee

"Be careful—don't assume a teacher is always right, without question. You have to think for yourself. Sometimes we teachers make mistakes, too. But in this case, I am right: You're not yet ready for a lightsaber." ―Luke Skywalker

Thanks. Long day at work. I sorta figured I had that one wrong, but didn't feel like looking it up. lol

To be fair you may have been thinking about this quote (not saying I agree lol)

"Remember, a Jedi fights only as a last resort. If you are forced to draw your lightsaber, you have already forfeited much of your advantage. A Jedi trusts the Force and at first seeks other ways to resolve problems: patience, logic, tolerance, attentive listening, negotiation, persuasion, calming techniques. But there are times when a Jedi must fight. Knowing that the Shadow Academy is out there, I fear those times will come all too often for us. And so you must learn how to wield your lightsabers."

Luke said this.

To be fair you may have been thinking about this quote (not saying I agree lol)

 

 

"Remember, a Jedi fights only as a last resort. If you are forced to draw your lightsaber, you have already forfeited much of your advantage. A Jedi trusts the Force and at first seeks other ways to resolve problems: patience, logic, tolerance, attentive listening, negotiation, persuasion, calming techniques. But there are times when a Jedi must fight. Knowing that the Shadow Academy is out there, I fear those times will come all too often for us. And so you must learn how to wield your lightsabers."

 

Luke said this.

Actually, I was thinking about the quote on the Force itself.

Ok, let's play Space Cops with the Jedi. They ARE, in fact, Republic Space Cops, Military Commanders, and Diplomats, when broken down into their basic roles.

I would say the Jedi are, well, Knights. Knights who swore loyalty to the Republic. I can take a paragraph from the Wikipedia article "Knight" and change a few words so it fits the Jedi:

"Jedi were asked to "Protect the weak, defenseless, helpless, and fight for the general welfare of all." These few guidelines were the main duties of a Jedi knight, but they were very hard to accomplish fully. Knights trained in meditating, fighting, and diplomacy, amongst other things. They were also trained to practise honorable behaviour, which was considered extremely important. The Jedi code was the main principle guiding a Jedi’s life style. It influenced three main areas: the military, diplomacy, and the use of the Force."

Okay, so the whole "no attachments"/"no emotion" thing makes them a monastic order, but there were monastic orders in history too.

What I want to say: The Jedi have their code and their principles, but they also serve the republic. And if the republic wants to intervene in a civil war, the Jedi will be there and fight.

Btw legally, the republic has every right to intervene on a neutral world if someone (the Organas, Anchorhead, ...) asks for their help.

What I want to say: The Jedi have their code and their principles, but they also serve the republic. And if the republic wants to intervene in a civil war, the Jedi will be there and fight.

Btw legally, the republic has every right to intervene on a neutral world if someone (the Organas, Anchorhead, ...) asks for their help.

But here's where it gets slippery. Were the Organas in charge? Not quite. The Ulgos were in charge at that point, but the Republic physically interfered on a sovereign planet in a state of civil war. I can think of a few RL examples of how this would be seen is improper and outright illegal, but I will refrain as we're supposed to keep RL examples out of these discussions.

But from what I've seen, the Republic is the "Free World" in the Star Wars Universe, and they're supposed to keep everything on the level. It's what sets them apart from the Empire.

But here's where it gets slippery. Were the Organas in charge? Not quite. The Ulgos were in charge at that point, but the Republic physically interfered on a sovereign planet in a state of civil war. I can think of a few RL examples of how this would be seen is improper and outright illegal, but I will refrain as we're supposed to keep RL examples out of these discussions.

 

But from what I've seen, the Republic is the "Free World" in the Star Wars Universe, and they're supposed to keep everything on the level. It's what sets them apart from the Empire.

The Organas weren't in charge. But the Ulgo's weren't in charge either, even if they claimed it. It was a civil war. And one party in the civil war asked the republic for help.

In RL we would have the United Nations to decide if it is legal or illegal. But before they existed it was quite normal to interfere in a civil war if one side asked for your help. There are no United Space Factions in Star Wars.

Maybe we differ in our RL opinion here, but helping one side in a civil war doesn't seem bad to me. Especially if the alternative is leaving the planet for to the Empire.