Was your gear optimized for MM? I see you are running too low a crit chance (220 Crit Rating). Some people can pull it off and still do great DPS like Akopra (check torparse for his logs). I suggest you try running with 300 Crit Rating. I myself run 346 Crit Rating (the parses in the OP for example). Lethality, especially Hybrid is dependend on your DoTs to crit for energy regen. Without the right RS (and crit to some extent), it might be harder for a newcomer to the spec, to pull Hybrid off.

Here's a general idea of what happens when I try it:

IP -> 85%

CG -> 72%

RS -> 79%

CD -> 69%

Cull -> 51%

SoS -> 43%

and by this time I'm toast as I've dropped too low.

Lethality [...] comes down to a lot of split second decisions about what to do next based on current energy levels, which may change depending on how many crits occurred. Any kind of one size fits all rotation is going to be slightly non-optimal compared to making the right decision at any given time. In your case above, you should've used RS when you can predict that CD - Cull is going to dip you below optimum energy levels. Having enough Crit will help you in this aspect as well.

(The parse / videos we're made with 300-346 Crit Rating).

Also the setup before Cull requires a lot of energy. You normally, (if unlucky with dot crits) will do 2 RS before Cull. Your rotation above used only 1. Coupled with a low crit rating, you definitely will run out of energy. My energy in the rotation you posted above is most likely that hight because my DoTs crit, thus giving me energy back.

As a final note: A rotation that is less energy intensive, but will also do less DPS is this one,

IP - RS - CG - RS - CD - Cull. You can switch around the RS anywere along the line but using 2 RS before your 1st Cull should give you enough energy back. Try it out also with more crit rating and you should be able to run this ~infintely.

Wow, that actually helped a lot. I haven't yet tweaked my crit rating (I want to get my BH Implant with crit/accuracy before getting any more mods)

But just keeping that fact in mind, I see that when I'm not lucky with my crits, all I have to do is add in an extra RS when needed. The funny thing is, I've read that several times in this thread but it didn't really become crystal clear until I wrestled with it directly.

So I can do the simple/sustainable now consistently. I'll add in OS, get familiar with that, then work on the max dps one.

Thanks.

When are we seeing this guide updated to 2.0?

Not until PTS goes LIVE(ish).

Firstly, I'd like to give major thanks for putting this guide out, it really has improved the way I play my sniper not just on the Ops Dummy but in raids itself. I do have a question regarding augment kits. Now, in various forums people implore that it's main stat when it comes to the Sniper augments but I've yet to see them compare it to the crit rating. For instance my crit rating sits at 350 (lethality/engineering hybrid build), so does the extra crit from my main stat really matter after that high of a crit chance? I'm quite sure power would be the way to go after that but I'd like to hear different opinions.

The crit from main stat is on a separate DR curve than crit rating, so crit from main stat will have the same effect on overall crit chance regardless of whether you're at 30% or 40%.

I currently have 305 crit rating on my gear, which puts me at a total of about 39.5% crit chance (with buff, cunning augments, and 3% crit skill). So I would say go with main stat augments (until 2.0 comes out)

That's my opinion on the matter

Excellent guide! I am, however, somewhat unconvinced that the rotation you describe is in fact sustainable. Ignoring Explosive Probe for the moment, the entire rotation has a period of 19.5 seconds (enforced by the CD on Cull and the DoT refresh order). We will see the following energy use profiles:

• SoS -> LS = 151 energy
  
• SoS -> Ambush = 141 energy
  
• OS -> RS -> RS = 136 energy
  

Over the course of 19.5 seconds, we will naturally regenerate 97.5 energy if we remain in the >60 bracket. Obviously, this is significantly energy-negative. Specifically, it is negative by the following energy/sec values:

• SoS -> LS = 2.743589744/sec
  
• SoS -> Ambush = 2.230769231/sec
  
• OS -> RS -> RS = 1.974358975/sec
  

The obvious answer to this is: DoT crits and Cull! Unfortunately, that doesn't help us as much as you would think. We have two poisons, one which ticks 7 times and the other 6 times, for a total of 13 ticks per rotation. Let's assume a base tech crit chance of 37.5% (conveniently, my current crit chance). We have a talented 12% additional crit chance for a total of 49.5%, which gives us a mean regen from crits as 13 * 0.495 * 2 = 12.87 energy. That's just 0.66/sec. Certainly not enough to make up the difference.

Cull is similar. It has a very nice crit chance, and we can assume that it will always double-tick during the channel. With the bonus to Cull's critical chance, we have a crit chance of 0.455 per tick, and thus a mean energy regeneration of 6 * 0.455 * 2 * 2 = 10.92. That's 0.56/sec. Also not enough to make up the difference.

Bringing Explosive Probe into the mix gives us some more to work with, but it's still *very* tight. Explosive Probe costs 16 energy, but also gives us an extra GCD for regeneration. Assuming we use it only at the start of each rotation, we see the following average regeneration: (20 + 1.5 * 5 - 16) / (19.5 * 2) = 0.294871795/sec. If we use Explosive Probe exactly on cooldown, we can improve that to 0.383333333/sec, but that's still not very much.

Altogether, we have an average of 1.514871795/sec energy regeneration from abilities (Cull + DoTs + EP). Basically, we see the following shortfalls accounting for all regeneration sources:

• SoS -> LS = 1.228717949/sec (24 energy per rotation)
  
• SoS -> Ambush = 0.715897436/sec (14 energy per rotation)
  
• OS -> RS -> RS = 0.45948718/sec (9 energy per rotation)
  

And this is all assuming that we *never* dip below 60 energy. If we do, then the shortfalls magnify proportionally.

These are not small shortfalls. Even if we eliminate the SoS -> Ambush and SoS -> LS combinations and replace them with SoS -> RS -> RS, we're still short every time we use Orbital Strike (3 rotations per orbital strike gives us a surplus of 3 energy leading into OS, for a net negative of ~6 energy per minute, though this is almost precisely offset by the set bonus regen attached to Target Acquired). This also doesn't give us enough energy to refresh SS, even on debuff drop (it requires 0.22/sec, or 4.33 energy per rotation).

The only thing I can think of which resolves these issues is to use a lot more RS than has been suggested. This seems to align with the (excellent) videos attached to the guide, where we see Rifle Shots exemplified quite a bit more than the rotation guide would indicate.

Am I missing something? Is my math off anywhere?

Very nice to see some math! I agree, and stress the fact that RS should always be squeezed into the "rotation picture guide." As long as you use RS prior to any ability in the rotation (if you see yourself dipping below the high energy bracket), then you can sustain the Hybrid build.

P.S. Would be nice to see your analysis of the Full Engineering spec in 2.0 KBN ^_^, I'm waiting on the reset to do Writhing Horror and another Titan 6 and after that the videos will be finished.

Very nice to see some math! I agree, and stress the fact that RS should always be squeezed into the "rotation picture guide." As long as you use RS prior to any ability in the rotation (if you see yourself dipping below the high energy bracket), then you can sustain the Hybrid build.

 

P.S. Would be nice to see your analysis of the Full Engineering spec in 2.0 KBN ^_^, I'm waiting on the reset to do Writhing Horror and another Titan 6 and after that the videos will be finished!

I'll put it on my TODO list. :-) I actually haven't tried Engineering at all (live or 2.0), so I'm not yet qualified to speak to it. I'm sure I'll try it in the near future though, being the spec floozie that I am.

I'll put it on my TODO list. :-) I actually haven't tried Engineering at all (live or 2.0), so I'm not yet qualified to speak to it. I'm sure I'll try it in the near future though, being the spec floozie that I am.

Lookin forward to it! The DPS numbers look good as Full Engi on bosses with huge hit boxes / hit circles. And it works on Terror From Beyond as well! Covered Escape rolls you out of the platform into the next one. Although only 2 bombs will hit the tentacle, the rest will hit TFB itself (but with decreased damage).

Now that 2.0 is here, I'm curious as to what hybrid spec exactly you found to be ideal. Because of the rearrangement of the skill trees, we have basically been given 5 free talent points to simply add to the existing hybrid spec. That gives us a fair amount of flexibility.

I *suspect* that going up higher in Lethality to pick up the DoT execute talent is probably ideal (Lingering Toxins is unnecessary, and Toxic Regulators is super-nice, but not a DPS boost). This means spending 2 points in anger on a Shield Probe buff. Alternatively, you could pop 3 points into the accuracy talent in Marksman. This is effectively free Surge, which is nice, and may actually be essential in lower tiers of gear (like Arkanian and Underworld). The disadvantage to taking the accuracy talent is you have essentially no place to put the remaining points (maybe Precision Ambush). There is nothing within reach in the Engineering tree which seems worthwhile.

Anyway, thoughts?

Now that 2.0 is here, I'm curious as to what hybrid spec exactly you found to be ideal. Because of the rearrangement of the skill trees, we have basically been given 5 free talent points to simply add to the existing hybrid spec. That gives us a fair amount of flexibility.

 

I *suspect* that going up higher in Lethality to pick up the DoT execute talent is probably ideal (Lingering Toxins is unnecessary, and Toxic Regulators is super-nice, but not a DPS boost). This means spending 2 points in anger on a Shield Probe buff. Alternatively, you could pop 3 points into the accuracy talent in Marksman. This is effectively free Surge, which is nice, and may actually be essential in lower tiers of gear (like Arkanian and Underworld). The disadvantage to taking the accuracy talent is you have essentially no place to put the remaining points (maybe Precision Ambush). There is nothing within reach in the Engineering tree which seems worthwhile.

 

Anyway, thoughts?

The hybrid puts 5 in marksman, 18 in engineering, and 23 in lethality. Experimental explosives is better than precision ambush, and going up to take lingering microbes is not worth going further up the engineering tree or taking the accuracy in marksman.

The hybrid puts 5 in marksman, 18 in engineering, and 23 in lethality. Experimental explosives is better than precision ambush, and going up to take lingering microbes is not worth going further up the engineering tree or taking the accuracy in marksman.

The accuracy talent in Marksman is really the best argument for *not* going up to Devouring Microbes. Experimental Explosives is indeed better than Precision Ambush, but it really isn't as good as you would think. Only the initial hit of Explosive Probe counts as an AoE effect. Beyond that, nothing else in the hybrid rotation is an AoE (Corrosive Grenade doesn't count).

Devouring Microbes is a really, really good talent. Consider, on an average parse on live, 45% of my damage (in hybrid spec) comes from Poison effects. That means that, when I pick up Devouring Microbes, I increase my DPS by 0.45 * 0.3 * 0.15 = 2%. Compare that to Experimental Explosives, which increases overall DPS by 0.04 * 0.42 * 0.3 = 0.5%. The accuracy talent is a bit harder to calculate due to its effect on energy regeneration, but ignoring that aspect of things for now, 3% accuracy is equivalent to 260 points of Accuracy rating which can be moved into Surge. Assuming a base Surge rating of 100, the 260 more points of Surge grants 11.72% additional surge rating, which gives a DPS increase of 0.1172 * 0.5 = 5.8%. Thus, the accuracy talent comes out ahead of Devouring Microbes at Arkanian gear levels. However, things start to even out a bit more as you get more Surge rating. At a base rating of 400, the accuracy talent gives a DPS increase of 2.5%. At a Surge rating of 500, the accuracy talent becomes worth less than Lingering Microbes.

So I guess that does make sense given current gear levels, but I'll definitely be swapping things into Devouring Microbes once attainable Surge ratings go up a bit more.

The accuracy talent in Marksman is really the best argument for *not* going up to Devouring Microbes. Experimental Explosives is indeed better than Precision Ambush, but it really isn't as good as you would think. Only the initial hit of Explosive Probe counts as an AoE effect. Beyond that, nothing else in the hybrid rotation is an AoE (Corrosive Grenade doesn't count).

 

Devouring Microbes is a really, really good talent. Consider, on an average parse on live, 45% of my damage (in hybrid spec) comes from Poison effects. That means that, when I pick up Devouring Microbes, I increase my DPS by 0.45 * 0.3 * 0.15 = 2%. Compare that to Experimental Explosives, which increases overall DPS by 0.04 * 0.42 * 0.3 = 0.5%. The accuracy talent is a bit harder to calculate due to its effect on energy regeneration, but ignoring that aspect of things for now, 3% accuracy is equivalent to 260 points of Accuracy rating which can be moved into Surge. Assuming a base Surge rating of 100, the 260 more points of Surge grants 11.72% additional surge rating, which gives a DPS increase of 0.1172 * 0.5 = 5.8%. Thus, the accuracy talent comes out ahead of Devouring Microbes at Arkanian gear levels. However, things start to even out a bit more as you get more Surge rating. At a base rating of 400, the accuracy talent gives a DPS increase of 2.5%. At a Surge rating of 500, the accuracy talent becomes worth less than Lingering Microbes.

 

So I guess that does make sense given current gear levels, but I'll definitely be swapping things into Devouring Microbes once attainable Surge ratings go up a bit more.

Hybrid Snipers use orbital strike in their rotation. That is the main justification for taking it, and the justification for taking the 2p pvp set bonus too.

Hybrid Snipers use orbital strike in their rotation. That is the main justification for taking it, and the justification for taking the 2p pvp set bonus too.

Ah yeah, that was silly of me. Obviously Orbital Strike is an AoE effect. That pushes the DPS boost from Experimental Explosives up to 1.4% without the PvP set bonus. That is actually enough to ensure that the accuracy talent + Experimental Explosives is preferable to Devouring Microbes until absolutely absurd Surge levels (913, to be precise).

Incidentally, I do actually prefer the 4pc PvE bonus to the 2pc PvP. The 2pc increases the damage of Orbital Strike by 30%, which is a DPS boost of 2.2% overall, but the 4pc bonus dramatically improves energy management during execute phases, allowing us to use Takedown as a filler move without adding an extra Rifle Shot. It doesn't help dummy parses, but I'm fairly certain it has a better than 2.2% DPS contribution on actual boss fights.

Ah yeah, that was silly of me. Obviously Orbital Strike is an AoE effect. That pushes the DPS boost from Experimental Explosives up to 1.4% without the PvP set bonus. That is actually enough to ensure that the accuracy talent + Experimental Explosives is preferable to Devouring Microbes until absolutely absurd Surge levels (913, to be precise).

 

Incidentally, I do actually prefer the 4pc PvE bonus to the 2pc PvP. The 2pc increases the damage of Orbital Strike by 30%, which is a DPS boost of 2.2% overall, but the 4pc bonus dramatically improves energy management during execute phases, allowing us to use Takedown as a filler move without adding an extra Rifle Shot. It doesn't help dummy parses, but I'm fairly certain it has a better than 2.2% DPS contribution on actual boss fights.

Yes you are right. The justification for using the 4-pc PVE bonus is for energy management which is very desireable in Lethality builds. Not having to delay your Cull and not needing to RS a lot because of the 4-pc PVE bonus will probably have

a better than 2.2% DPS contribution on actual boss fights

I found that I cna keep TD on cooldown during execute phases and still go through my normal rotation just fine. I do hope that the PVP set bonus are not removed from the Battlemaster shells. If that happens then the only way to get the PVP bonus will be the armorings which have inferior main stats (can anyone confirm or deny this?)

In 2.0, when you put an armoring into a shell, the set bonus on the shell is stomped (there is a warning dialog to this effect). This includes armorings without set bonuses. In other words, it is not possible to have a PvP set bonus of any kind in PvE in 2.0, since the PvP armorings are so dramatically inferior. As soon as you put a new armoring into your Battlemaster shell, that set bonus is gone forever.

Obviously Orbital Strike is an AoE effect. That pushes the DPS boost from Experimental Explosives up to 1.4% without the PvP set bonus. That is actually enough to ensure that the accuracy talent + Experimental Explosives is preferable to Devouring Microbes until absolutely absurd Surge levels (913, to be precise).

 

Incidentally, I do actually prefer the 4pc PvE bonus to the 2pc PvP. The 2pc increases the damage of Orbital Strike by 30%, which is a DPS boost of 2.2% overall, but the 4pc bonus dramatically improves energy management during execute phases, allowing us to use Takedown as a filler move without adding an extra Rifle Shot. It doesn't help dummy parses, but I'm fairly certain it has a better than 2.2% DPS contribution on actual boss fights.

Devouring Microbes is a really, really good talent. Consider, on an average parse on live, 45% of my damage (in hybrid spec) comes from Poison effects. That means that, when I pick up Devouring Microbes, I increase my DPS by 0.45 * 0.3 * 0.15 = 2%. Compare that to Experimental Explosives, which increases overall DPS by 0.04 * 0.42 * 0.3 = 0.5%. The accuracy talent is a bit harder to calculate due to its effect on energy regeneration, but ignoring that aspect of things for now, 3% accuracy is equivalent to 260 points of Accuracy rating which can be moved into Surge. Assuming a base Surge rating of 100, the 260 more points of Surge grants 11.72% additional surge rating, which gives a DPS increase of 0.1172 * 0.5 = 5.8%. Thus, the accuracy talent comes out ahead of Devouring Microbes at Arkanian gear levels. However, things start to even out a bit more as you get more Surge rating. At a base rating of 400, the accuracy talent gives a DPS increase of 2.5%. At a Surge rating of 500, the accuracy talent becomes worth less than Lingering Microbes.

 

So I guess that does make sense given current gear levels, but I'll definitely be swapping things into Devouring Microbes once attainable Surge ratings go up a bit more.

Please correct me if i'm wrong. My attempt to summarize is this: RE: Orbital Strike

Arkanian gear with NO PVP set bonus

Accuracy talent: 5.8%

Devouring Microbes: 2%

Experimental Explosives (OS): 1.4%

Once you have more stat points to allocate:

The gap between Accuracy talent and Devouring Microbes becomes smaller.

Arkanian gear with PVP set bonus:

Acc talent: 5.8%

Devouring Microbes: 2%

Experimental Explosives (OS): 2.2%

It looks like the difference is small between Devouring Microbes and EE if you have the PVP set bonus! Nice and thank you for the math!

Imo I think from this point it is all going to be personal preference. The arguments FOR 4pc PVE set bonus are there: better energy management, less RS, earlier Culls and DoT re-applications in the Execute phase (which translates to more DPS but is hard to quantify). However let me be be the devil's advocate here.

The numbers above take into account single target damage of OS only. In fights with multiple mob spawns, being able to get 4 ticks of Orbital to do their full damage, is going to translate into a lot of DPS. I admit it is very situational and it suits my personal playstyle of looking for these instances to make good use of Orbital Strike. Note though that I have NOT gone to the point of "manufacturing" parses and having the Adds clumped up and having the raid save them for my Orbital Strike (which is simply just pushing DPS parses for epeen purposes lol).

EDIT: Here is a good example of Orbital Strikes potential. Note that this is without the 2pc PVP bonus.

Time: 172 sec http://www.torparse.com/a/151934/26/0/Damage+Dealt

DPS: 19,000 DPS

Logs:

In 2.0, when you put an armoring into a shell, the set bonus on the shell is stomped (there is a warning dialog to this effect). This includes armorings without set bonuses. In other words, it is not possible to have a PvP set bonus of any kind in PvE in 2.0, since the PvP armorings are so dramatically inferior. As soon as you put a new armoring into your Battlemaster shell, that set bonus is gone forever.

I see. The current gear I was using in the PTS had 2pc BM with crafted [63] armorings. In 2.0, if i try to put in [72] armorings into my BM shells, that will destroy the PVP set bonus.

So now i only have the choice of using [63] PVE armorings with 2.0 mods and enhancements

[72] WH armorings with [72] mods and enhancements.

Please correct me if i'm wrong. <snip>

Looks correct to me!

It looks like the difference is small between Devouring Microbes and EE if you have the PVP set bonus! Nice and thank you for the math!

Remember that you need to put an extra 2 points into Lethality before you can put the three points into Devouring Microbes. Thus, you're weighing Devouring Microbes alone against Marksmanship + Experimental Explosives. Even without the PvP set bonus, Marksmanship + EE is going to win that one every time.

Imo I think from this point it is all going to be personal preference. The arguments FOR 4pc PVE set bonus are there: better energy management, less RS, earlier Culls and DoT re-applications in the Execute phase (which translates to more DPS but is hard to quantify). However let me be be the devil's advocate here.

Well, here's the problem: to keep the PvP set bonus, you need to either a) forever hang onto two Skill 27 armorings and never, ever upgrade the armoring slots on those pieces, or b) obtain BiS PvP armorings. Neither option is appealing. The BiS PvP armoring is very slightly better than the level 63 PvE armorings, but only slightly. You're going to be significantly behind the BiS PvE armorings in terms of main stat, endurance and mitigation. Remember, BiS PvP gear is level 66, while BiS PvE is level 72. The gap between Partisan and Arkanian is significant, and it will only continue to get wider as the gear progression continues.

If it were just a matter of taste, then I can absolutely see how there is an argument for picking up the 2pc bonus. In fact, I would probably swap gear on a per-boss basis (e.g. 2pc bonus for Writhing Horror, 4pc bonus for Kephess, etc). Unfortunately, you're gimping yourself so much in the area of stat budgets (which hits particularly hard given how insanely valuable Cunning is for hybrid) that there's really no way to viably take the PvP set bonus anymore.

Well, here's the problem: to keep the PvP set bonus, you need to either a) forever hang onto two Skill 27 armorings and never, ever upgrade the armoring slots on those pieces, or b) obtain BiS PvP armorings. Neither option is appealing. The BiS PvP armoring is very slightly better than the level 63 PvE armorings, but only slightly. You're going to be significantly behind the BiS PvE armorings in terms of main stat, endurance and mitigation. Remember, BiS PvP gear is level 66, while BiS PvE is level 72. The gap between Partisan and Arkanian is significant, and it will only continue to get wider as the gear progression continues.

 

If it were just a matter of taste, then I can absolutely see how there is an argument for picking up the 2pc bonus. In fact, I would probably swap gear on a per-boss basis (e.g. 2pc bonus for Writhing Horror, 4pc bonus for Kephess, etc). Unfortunately, you're gimping yourself so much in the area of stat budgets (which hits particularly hard given how insanely valuable Cunning is for hybrid) that there's really no way to viably take the PvP set bonus anymore.

Of all the things I tried out in the PTS, this is the one i missed. I've heard rumors of how trying to get the PVP bonus in 2.0 is going to severly gimp your main stat, and it looks like you have confirmed it. I will have to see this for myself when i log in... on the 14th >_<

As MM and Engineering, you have really no need for better energy management unless you do something really out of line like SoS - FT - Snipe - Snipe - Snipe - Snipe -Snipe - FT - Ambush - FT. The 2pc PVP bonus is vastly superior to the 4pc PVE bonus and it is sad they are taking away this cookie. As Engi its should be even less of issue; you should have no energy problems at all with 1 minute cooldown Adrenaline Probes.

As MM and Engineering, you have really no need for better energy management unless you do something really out of line like SoS - FT - Snipe - Snipe - Snipe - Snipe -Snipe - FT - Ambush FT. The 2pc PVP bonus is vastly superior to the 4pc PVE bonus and it is sad they are taking away this cookie.

 

As Engi its even more of a non-issue, you should have no energy problems with 1 minute cooldown Adrenaline Probes.

Yeah, after playing hybrid so much, energy management in MM or Engineering (or even full Lethality) seems like an absolute joke. It's so easy it's almost laughable. :-)

I suspect that the 4pc bonus for Marksman is primarily intended to make the DPE contribution of Takedown worthwhile. Without the 4pc bonus, nearly everything else you do is going to have a better DPE value (except for un-lazed Snipe). With the 4pc bonus, the DPE value of Takedown moves up ahead of Followthrough and just behind Ambush (on proc), which makes it a much more effectual component of the Marksman rotation.