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Vigilance Buffs


PowerReaper

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not sure how vigilance is pve wise but as for pvp:

 

if you play focus and have all power modded gear then switch vigilance you will think vigilance needs a buff.

if you gear yourself correctly (and learn how to play the spec ) you will see how much of a beast the vigilance tree really is.

 

granted you have to understand that 300k single target damage is just as "important" as 500k aoe damage

 

before i get flamed... im not saying vigilance is perfect but it is absolutely playable and useful.. i would actually say its pretty damn beastly.

 

 

I have been playing vigilance since launch and i kide of agree vigilance is awsome you will never top the damage chart but can easily be the leader in killing blows. I do think the penilty for a miss with sunder is to sever which is why i said sunder should be spamable or at leas 4 sec so sunder 2 gds sunder and not lose .5 sec and set all your coold down back over time this is big and the dots from PB are longer than the cool down so you lose dps if you go for the master strike proc if you had a way to get the full dps from PB and the proc fro maseter.

 

But all in all vigilance is awsome

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I have been playing vigilance since launch and i kide of agree vigilance is awsome you will never top the damage chart but can easily be the leader in killing blows.

 

Yes. And once you've deceided to take down one guy, it's unlikely he won't die unless you engage him with few HP left. This spec can afford to engage a 1vs2 or 1vs3, lengthen its own life span and take down one guy before to die with honor.

Edited by Altheran
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honostly vig needs only one thing to bring it on par with other dps specs better resource management which is an easy fix just reduce the cost of over head slash from 4 focus to 3 and plasma brand from 5 focus to 4 and make both abilities only usable in shien form done thats all that is really needed and it becomes easier for people to keep all abilities on CD and maximise there dps.
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honostly vig needs only one thing to bring it on par with other dps specs better resource management which is an easy fix just reduce the cost of over head slash from 4 focus to 3 and plasma brand from 5 focus to 4 and make both abilities only usable in shien form done thats all that is really needed and it becomes easier for people to keep all abilities on CD and maximise there dps.

 

It's already how it cost once Shien has refunded you a point.

 

I haven't reached Plasma Brand on my Guardian (lvl 37) but I have no concern with Focus management. I don't even use Combat Focus. (The last time I used it -and maybe the first and last time I used it- was when I hadn't Effluence yet, and I needed to reveal a stealther with no focus avaliable)

 

Once I get Plasma Brand, I'm confident I won't have any management concerns with Momentum and Combat Focus. I even think I don't need Victory Rush.

Edited by Altheran
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It's already how it cost once Shien has refunded you a point.

 

I haven't reached Plasma Brand on my Guardian (lvl 37) but I have no concern with Focus management. I don't even use Combat Focus. (The last time I used it -and maybe the first and last time I used it- was when I hadn't Effluence yet, and I needed to reveal a stealther with no focus avaliable)

 

Once I get Plasma Brand, I'm confident I won't have any management concerns with Momentum and Combat Focus. I even think I don't need Victory Rush.

 

ya thats the point i wouldnt get rid of the refund the cost once refunded would be down to 2 overhead and 3 plasma and if you have an abundance of focus your not doing the right rotation and not keeping all of your abilities on cd here let me show you plasma brand over head slash blade storm and master strike to use all of those that covers 7.5 seconds and costs 10 focus you can get 2 from the refund off zen proc but you still need to produce 8 more focus.... in 1 GCD (1.5 seconds) because thats how long you have before your abilities come off CD again,

Edited by tunewalker
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not sure how vigilance is pve wise but as for pvp:

 

if you play focus and have all power modded gear then switch vigilance you will think vigilance needs a buff.

if you gear yourself correctly (and learn how to play the spec ) you will see how much of a beast the vigilance tree really is.

 

granted you have to understand that 300k single target damage is just as "important" as 500k aoe damage

 

before i get flamed... im not saying vigilance is perfect but it is absolutely playable and useful.. i would actually say its pretty damn beastly.

 

I agree with you. I'm only 61 min/maxed at the moment, with the EWH focus (with a 61 mod) that hits 102% accuracy / 30% melee (32% force) crit chance, 79% surge & the rest into +power (w/Rakata +strength/+power stim), and in pvp, I'm out DPS'ing derpsmashers with ease.

 

My overall damage is higher, and my biggest hits are somewhere between 5600 and 6200 (dispatch), and it's funny when teammates accuse/inquire if I've switched to smash spec.

 

I swell with pride when I can so: "Hell naw! Vigilance FTW!"

 

As for this thread: honestly, just about any buffs are fine, but I don't feel like I need them. Not bragging, but 63 min/maxed vigilance has got to be monstrous in a WZ.

 

It's pretty frail in large combat mosh pits, so perhaps a little more sturdiness would be nice. I think the AOE dmg redux may be too high at the level proposed, but I'd be unstoppable if it was setup with any increase to this value. :)

Edited by adiwantinova
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I agree with you. I'm only 61 min/maxed at the moment, with the EWH focus (with a 61 mod) that hits 102% accuracy / 30% melee (32% force) crit chance, 79% surge & the rest into +power (w/Rakata +strength/+power stim), and in pvp, I'm out DPS'ing derpsmashers with ease.

 

My overall damage is higher, and my biggest hits are somewhere between 5600 and 6200 (dispatch), and it's funny when teammates accuse/inquire if I've switched to smash spec.

 

I swell with pride when I can so: "Hell naw! Vigilance FTW!"

 

As for this thread: honestly, just about any buffs are fine, but I don't feel like I need them. Not bragging, but 63 min/maxed vigilance has got to be monstrous in a WZ.

 

It's pretty frail in large combat mosh pits, so perhaps a little more sturdiness would be nice. I think the AOE dmg redux may be too high at the level proposed, but I'd be unstoppable if it was setup with any increase to this value. :)

 

Seriously, are you fighting recruit geared players? I haven't seen a 6k dispatch in a long time. My guardian is min/max elite war hero. I've been playing vigilence for a most of my subscription time (close to a year). My pvp stats lately usually show my highest damaging attacks barely breaking 4k. Furthermore, I run off and on with two friends that play smash spec. They ALWAYS out damage me. They ALWAYS have the biggest hits. My consolation is I had 30 kills to their 25kills, with 20+ killing blows to their handful of killing blows? No one looks at that stat. You can play your butt off as vigilence and it will barely show. I hate to call out another vigilence player, but what are you fighting?

 

I have to say I'm frustrated. What bugs me the most about vigilence is the preception of its worth and the guardian in general. I've been in the group finder, got in a flashpoint, only to be kicked and whispered by one of the guys that guardians aren't dps, they are tank. I was sidelined in a progression raiding guild because it came to the point we had recruited so many sentinels that their utility for raid outweighted my dps. I pvp a lot, and as I explained above, I'm lost in the crowd even when I'm the most effective in the warzone.

 

I feel something needs to change.

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The focus management is no problem for me, with the shien form there is always enough around ^^

 

What our problem in pvp is, in comparison with focus spec:

-They get aoe hits as big or bigger as our single target hits.

-They don't have to channel their biggest hit (in an attack where ca. 50% of the dmg comes with the last tick, which can be easily countered)

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want viligance to become op like smash is, but a slight dmg buff would be really nice.

 

Viligance is a great 1vs1 spec and is great for deffing a node, but in the zerg we can only focus 1 player

Edited by Never_Hesitate
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Seriously, are you fighting recruit geared players? I haven't seen a 6k dispatch in a long time. My guardian is min/max elite war hero. I've been playing vigilence for a most of my subscription time (close to a year). My pvp stats lately usually show my highest damaging attacks barely breaking 4k. Furthermore, I run off and on with two friends that play smash spec. They ALWAYS out damage me. They ALWAYS have the biggest hits. My consolation is I had 30 kills to their 25kills, with 20+ killing blows to their handful of killing blows? No one looks at that stat. You can play your butt off as vigilence and it will barely show. I hate to call out another vigilence player, but what are you fighting?

 

I have to say I'm frustrated. What bugs me the most about vigilence is the preception of its worth and the guardian in general. I've been in the group finder, got in a flashpoint, only to be kicked and whispered by one of the guys that guardians aren't dps, they are tank. I was sidelined in a progression raiding guild because it came to the point we had recruited so many sentinels that their utility for raid outweighted my dps. I pvp a lot, and as I explained above, I'm lost in the crowd even when I'm the most effective in the warzone.

 

I feel something needs to change.

 

Nerfing smash for starters. Also I'm sorry to hear you're dealing with pants-on-head ******* on your server. :(

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I should say pvp focus is no issue mostly i was talking pve when i said focus generation could be an issue but ya i have no idea what to do for pvp giving us some sort of good burst damadge would be a start.

 

ok, sry I didn't read through the whole thread and I can't really talk about the specc in pve because I'm always tanking. (the tankspecc could use a dps buff as well, because of aggro problems) ^^

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I loved vig/veng when i was leveling my first character (Jugg). Seemed to do okay damage, could easily stance swap and tank anything, was moderately fun to play. But it did seem to have too many defense related talents for a DPS tree.

 

Then my server died, and I made a Sentinel on another server. Very quickly I realized that A) Jugg DPS sucked (specifically low level stuff as I haven't even tried to DPS since level 42) and B) Vig/Veng is literally just a hodge podge of watered down crap from watchmen/annihilation and combat/carnage, with less damage.

 

It seems very obvious to me that this tree was a late addition to the game. I would very much like to see either A) all of the classes damage being front loaded, no dots whatsoever or B) the duration of all your dots shortened and damage increased significantly.

 

I also think this class in general needs a hefty damage increase (outside of Focus tree obviously). Tank guards/juggs do so little damage that I straight up ignore them entirely in PVP until they're the last ones left and it is also apparent in PVE when tanking, using a Sin as a comparison. Like... 30% across the board. Minimum. Vig/veng is not quite as bad but could definitely still use some love... Usually ignore you guys too unless it's huttball.

 

I'd like to see a quick way to apply multiple stacks of sunder on a short cool down. IE, Precision Slash/Gore. By the time you get full stacks up you can easily be killed, in some cases twice over, by several specs/classes in the game. If it's going to be a required thing for the spec, there needs to be a faster way to do it.

 

I look at it like this. Vig/veng comes to attack me, opens with st leap or just leap. Obviously Master Strike is coming next. Can't stun you so I just blind (off gcd) gore (off gcd) and fire up ravage right back. You either have to eat ~10k of damage from my full ravage while yours misses entirely or waste your cc immunity on choke or awe to stop mine.

 

Option A) You're basically starting the fight with half health and your big hitter on CD. Assuming I don't get choked or awe'd (your MS probably finished first, even if only slightly) you also just ate a 5k force scream and a 1-3k retaliation on top of the ravage and are now in or very close to execute range. Not really a way you're coming back from this. As soon as your first dot ticks I pop cloak of pain, which you now can't stop from refreshing, 20% damage reduction. If you somehow get a lucky proc and start MS again before you die, I just vanish to cancel cast and kill you. Again, your ship has sailed.

 

Option B) Okay! You stopped my ravage and shut me down during my gore window. Also wasted my blind. First dot (cloak of pain, thanks!) and I pretty much start spamming massacre. If your MS procs I can still choke, awe, or vanish. Every other attack hits for a pretty negligible amount of damage except for dispatch, but you will be long gone before I get in range of that. I can choke/root/kite through saber ward and easily out dmg enraged defense (no clue what guardian version is called) while you do nothing if you want to get any heals from it.

 

Annihilation/Watchmen vs You is over even faster, my dots are significantly stronger, are applied faster, and I can choke/vanish once I get them on you, while you just sit there melting. Focus/Rage fight may be in your favor, I can zs/ba, crush you then vanish, buying me time to get stacks and rage to zealous leap/obliterate for my buffed smash. Your ST beats my ST in between smashes... Have a decent chance of winning this one. Another comparison:

 

Tank Jugg. Fight will take an eternity, you might be able to win 1v1 but it'll take so long I'll have help before you kill me.

 

Smash Jugg. Same as Smash mara.

 

Tank Sin. I will be opening on YOU, have fairly comparable ST damage and more than enough CC to keep you locked down long enough to gain an advantage. Speaking from hybrid spec dps gear perspective.

 

Deception Sin. Burst is far superior to yours. Enough CC to dodge avoid the MS and if you push leap MS I can vanish or pop deflection to likely avoid it. Also have superior defensive cooldowns. Easy fight.

 

Madness Sin. No idea don't like the playstyle. Stronger or comparable dots, unpredictable burst from death field. Probably coming out ahead.

 

Pyro PT. lol you know what happens.

 

AP PT. Don't know never even seen one in PVP afaik.

 

Tank PT. You are one of like three classes shield rating is useful for! Bad news for you.

 

Concealment OP probably going to win. If not, can leave so still not a kill for you. Heal op, probably going to win. After your MS, which can be avoided even without cc, your damage is heal-through able and all your dots can be purged. If things go south, cc/vanish and bail.

 

Ranged in this game is a joke other than snipers, which can probably kill you. Sorcs are a toss up, if they panic after not being able to stun or kb you after you leap they're probably dead. if they open on you from range you might be in trouble.

 

Seems pretty borked that you can be completely shutdown by another melee class so easily. I really don't like feeling like my team is handicapped as soon as I see that Shien form. I really don't like encouraging people to go respec and regear for smash. But that's the reality of the current situation.

 

Also: If you're out damaging smashers the smashers on your server are terrible. I agree that 300k single target is important, but they can do that too. So can every other melee class in this game. 300k is a lowbie number for a lot of other specs/classes... 300k is less than a full round of Voidstar if there are healers present and the other team isn't spamming stun bubble at 50.

Edited by Racter
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^^^

 

As a vigilance guardian, I can say that this hasn't been my experience at all. One thing that you are neglecting to acknowledge is Enure + pvp heal stim = new HP bar.

 

I'm certainly not the most sturdy class by any means, but 1v1 makes me smile... A lot. If I can open with my leap first, it's more than likely over for them. If they open on me, it's gonna be a close fight.

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Pyro PT is definitely beatable if you have the jump on them. You need all the defensive cooldowns and Enure to overcome their insane burst but they are squishy as hell and have no knockback. It helps if they blow a stun after Leap, preferably the four-sec one :)

 

But as the long post above says, against a well-played, geared Marauder you will lose every time if you both have all cooldowns available. They have so many tools to ruin Master Strike and without that we can't keep up in terms of damage.

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I really want some kind of buff aswell for this spec, I'm a fulltime sweeper, and I get really frustrated how boring this spec gets in time. But I just can't go vigiliance cuz I'm so used to the OPness, so please BW nerf us monkeys somehow, and buff veng/vigi.
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The thing is, PvP isn't all about 1v1's, and Guardian Leap is a fantastic tool to turn a fight in your favor, whether it be to reposition yourself for a leap on your target, or just getting the hell out of there.

 

Another thing Vigilance is fantastic at is leaping in on a scrum, picking out the low health targets and destroying them with Overhead Slash/Dispatch combos. And if they saved their stun to keep you from getting your execute off, too bad, unremitting!

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I would like to see a couple of things for vigilance.

 

1.) a flat increase to master strike.( I did some comparisons between a sentinel and guardian. With no gear and the same saber, the sentinel has a 300 dmg higher master strike, from there the disparity grows as gear is added. With the same stats/gear set up, the sentinel had a 4760-5490 master strike, while the guardian had a 4214-4683. That is with no spec points added yet. They had the same exact stats in every slot. Add in spec Combat with the 8% master strike talent in focus and the sentinel goes to 5388-6325. The guardian in vigilance at 5546-6142 ( WITH shien stance** the spec gives a 12% increase to melee dmg and an 8% from focus tree. Take this for what you will.)

 

Just thought that would be interesting to some people.

 

2.) Some form of armor penetration, in the 10-20% range. The 30% that is in focus would be ideal, maybe with a tree revamp. Either a flat % from stance, or add a short term buff from a prior attack 4-5 secs.

 

3.) Remove the sunder requirement from Plasma Brand and decrease the dot to a 9 sec duration. This is more of a QOL issue, it is manageable now but would make the rotation easier with a 9 sec cooldown/dot.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Yo guys just wondering what u think of the vigilance changes for 1.7? :)

 

Overall I like a lot of what I'm seeing on paper. We will do more damage though we will no longer be the kings of the execution phases do to losing our (basically) autocrits with Bladestorm and Dispatch. Keening looks pretty wicked. Preparation seems meh at best. I like the reduced CD on Sunder and Sundering Throw. Anyone know if PB is getting any changes? I saw one site that said yes but another that said no.

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Overall I like a lot of what I'm seeing on paper. We will do more damage though we will no longer be the kings of the execution phases do to losing our (basically) autocrits with Bladestorm and Dispatch. Keening looks pretty wicked. Preparation seems meh at best. I like the reduced CD on Sunder and Sundering Throw. Anyone know if PB is getting any changes? I saw one site that said yes but another that said no.

 

This sound like a flat damage increase, while taking away our burst. Without matching us to other classes utility and the lost of this burst, our "usefulness" in metagame will stay the same, which doesn't bode well.

 

Please link where you saw the changes.

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Yo guys just wondering what u think of the vigilance changes for 1.7? :)

 

I don't really like what I'm seeing. We will have to invest a lot more in crit, which means sacrificing surge and burst. So we might end up with more damage at the end of a match but fights will take longer and survivability vs other dps classes goes down. The damage increase to overhead slash doesn't make up for the other things that are lost. I hope changes are made before it hits live to keep our burst with the damage increase. I'd rather keep my burst and survivability than put out lots of meaningless damage over time.

 

Also, the new dispatch any target ability (if real) seems lazy or rushed. There's so many other cool things that could be added as whole new abilities, and not just mere talents that affect existing abilities. It's a waste of space on the tree in my opinion.

 

I was really hoping for a flat damage increase to Vigilance with no nerfs and a whole new unique tree ability but doesn't look like either is going to happen.

Edited by ELECTRICJUDGMENT
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Well about the utility. If darth hater's info aint wrong and if i understood it right then our sunder debuffs will be changed from 4% to 20% (wich means we will get 100% armor pen on most targets pretty fast) and that should easily make up for the burst lost from force rush (dispatch)...

 

sry my bad grammar :)

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If darth hater's info aint wrong and if i understood it right then our sunder debuffs will be changed from 4% to 20%

 

Sunder is already 20% at 5 stacks; the change is supposed to be making it so that Sunder no longer stacks and simply applies the same 20% armor debuff right away (which is vastly different than armor penetration, btw).

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Sunder is already 20% at 5 stacks; the change is supposed to be making it so that Sunder no longer stacks and simply applies the same 20% armor debuff right away (which is vastly different than armor penetration, btw).

 

but with 5 stacks after patch u will have 100% if the stuff i have been reading is true , it said: sunder changed from 4% to 20% and by saying so it never mentioned that saber throw adds 20% sunder.. but i guess we'll see tomorrow :)

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but with 5 stacks after patch u will have 100% if the stuff i have been reading is true , it said: sunder changed from 4% to 20% and by saying so it never mentioned that saber throw adds 20% sunder.. but i guess we'll see tomorrow :)

 

(1) Those changes aren't going through with 1.7. Those are the RotHC changes. (2) Those are internal patch notes without any available numbers in the important places and are obviously missing a *lot* of other information (such as, since Troopers are referred to as using "energy cells" rather than "ammo" and in sets of 8 rather than 1). As such, you can't trust or attempt to intuit anything other than the most baseline information from them. There's also a bit of common sense involved here because it would be *idiotic* for the dev team to allow Guardians to stack up to 100% armor reduction, not to mention people the fact that the new abilities for the ACs are listed under the general class (e.g. Consular rather than Sage and Shadow for Force Barrier and Phase Walk, respectively).

 

The fact that so many people seem to be trying to read *so much* into those datamined internal patch notes simply demonstrates that people will get worked up about almost anything even if said information is both incomplete and still early enough to be highly mutable.

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