your definately gonna get flamed 4 this

Normally I would form an opinion on someone based on their grammar but when your playing this game you do not have time check what you are typing. Last night I was doing an HM and needed to get a quick message out. during a battle I did not spell check it and it was in capitals but the guys got the message quickly and acted on it. I wouldn't expect quality grammar when playing this game.

So my question to you is when you see someone who doesn't take the time to check, or a guild recruiter who doesn't take the time to properly format. How would that make you feel about the person if say in the same hour they started an argument with you on......inventory spaces. Or anything of that nature. Would you view yourself in a superior position at that point?

 

I overestimated your original comment by supposing that guild recruiters = leaders and you expected them to be eloquent.

 

Edit:

 

Or for that matter. Do you make assumptions on age or level of education when you see sloppy messages? Especially guild recruitment ones.

 

I would only apply my thoughts/reaction to the specific instance when only spelling and grammar were in question.

 

For instance I would not join a guild that advertised itself poorly.

Then if I was engaged in a discussion with the same recruiter about a game feature I would try not to use any points that were not related to the argument so would not bring up the bad spelling and/or grammar from his earlier recruitment message.

Sometimes seemingly unrelated topics can be tied together somehow though in the example you cite I can't imagine any (recruitment message spelling/grammar and inventory space).

 

I have both a gift and a curse in my memory anyway, my memory sucks lol. I would not even remember that the person was the same as the earlier recruiter and so the connection would not even spring to mind.

 

I don't make assumptions in such matters on age etc. Not sure how such things work overseas but in New Zealand there are intelligent people across all levels of education and age, and just as many stupid people across the board too. So if I assume anything it is that such things as spelling and grammar are not indicators of education or age at all.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Bluestone

So I want to discuss something. And it might turn into a flame war but know that is not my intention.

 

I also want to begin this by saying I am not a Grammar Nazi. What the scope of this post is covering is simple things like capitalization of first letters in sentences, punctuation, etc. I'm a senior in college and I still have to consult a manual sometimes if I want to go crazy in a paper and add a colon.

 

 

TLDR;

 

/TLDR;

 

This is a simple question that should be answered for statistical reasons with "Yes" or "No" and then I will go on with my hypothesis.

 

I'm also not saying that the above question is at all true. I know lots of people who are smart and don't use proper grammar for reasons I will discuss below. This is just

 

Explanation:

 

I'm speaking from my own personal experience and that of my closest friends whom I know in real life. I cannot for example take the experiences of a SWTOR member in chat who claims to be a novelist with a doctorate, because who knows?

 

I am a college student. A very average college student in my senior year. I grew up in the internet age so since High School I have been using a computer to process words and type. I am a little special though from other children because my family worked in the computer industry from the get go. So from about 1994 or 5 onward I had been around computers, which is since I was five years old. I learned to type before I could really write well and other things. This has not necessarily been great for me because my handwriting sucks! Anyway that's a digression.

 

We're talking about papers and academic work. Why? Because I am assuming your average player of a game like SWTOR is someone who is probably 15-25, is in school, also writing and doing academic work.

 

Now here is me:

 

When I write something and make a mistake; I immediately backspace and fix it. No matter what, no matter where. This is a habit from all of the papers I have written during my scholarly career. And it is a habit that transfers to my texting, Facebook, everything.

 

It is very hard for me to force myself to write sloppily, and only in the heat of combat might I split some poor incorrect thing out. Friends whom I've asked told me the same thing, I -witness- this on a daily basis by going to my University's library.

 

I'm not OCD in the slightest, and I'm not a Grammar Nazi as said before. I simply have developed a habit of writing material in the correct format, to lessen the use of things like spellcheck or whatever, and to just sound professional and neat.

 

So it is from this standpoint that I make the following hypothesis:

 

If a person does not use proper grammar, punctuation, or capitalization at a basic level in a chat where they are simply standing and chatting (not in combat), then one of the following possibly applies to them.

 

(a). They are younger than 15. Maybe even older than that. The person has not reached an age where they are expected to write perfectly, and especially not on a computer. They probably aren't asked to write papers, copy notes, etc. In America 15 is approximately 10th grade on the high school scale. Most high schools are not completely integrated with computers, nor can they expect their students to all have computers, etc.

 

(b). They are older than 30. And grew up not really being expected to type or process words. They might hold a job where they are not expected to do so either. Someone who is 30 was born in 1982, and was 18 in the year 2000. School computing was definitely not as developed, and University computing was only a few steps ahead. Computing was also still relatively expensive.

 

©. English is not their first language. Can't really blame anyone for that. They might be using a foreign keyboard, they might be code-switching. Who knows what stage of Language Acquisition they are in. But people who fall into this category usually make more obvious mistakes than punctuation.

 

(d). They are not College educated. They could be 18-24 and never went to college, working your basic minimum wage job. This person is not really -asked- to use good typing skills in there everyday environment.

 

Keep in mind these are all suppositions. I'm not saying that everyone who is young, old, didn't go to college, or an ELL is stupid or a lesser human being. What I'm trying to decode is the attitude against people who do not take the effort to use proper grammar. Which leads me to.

 

(e). They don't care. And argument that I 100% do not buy. For reasons I have been discussing this whole time. Habits are hard to break, and if you are not in a habit of typing eloquently, then that really is a reflection of you as a person. This goes true as someone not showering, shaving, getting a haircut, or washing their clothes.

 

 

 

 

With all this said, think about the inverse, assuming the above hypothesis was completely true, that means that people who use proper punctuation, grammar, etc. are:

 

1. Older ('perfect' American age of 18-25 even.)

2. Smarter (College educated, possibly a professional worker.)

3. Proficient in English.

4. Caring about their image.

 

 

By fleshing this out I can clearly see why people take up the arguments that they do in chat wars about grammar.

 

The people who correct others simply know better, some of them are jerks and nazis, but a great deal of us are just interested in making sure people know that "a lot" is actually two words etc. And everyone has witnessed the 12 year old trying to exert himself as an older, wiser individual, and most of us myself included have done that same type of thing at one time or another.

 

So the discussion is this:

 

What is your take on grammar in game chat? What is your life experience (are you University trained etc)? Are you coming from writing a very complex academic paper to a video game where you immediately drop all rules of communication?

 

 

 

Arguments:

 

Here are some common arguments I run into.

 

1. As long as the point gets across it does not matter: This is true to a point, especially in verbal communication. Personally when I see a well constructed argument with proper grammar, I know the individual has thought enough into it to format it into an eloquent thought. Someone who spews whatever they are thinking (which is NOT always the case) may not be reading what others are saying, or thinking about what they are saying.

 

2. It's a game it doesn't matter: Goes back to my previous discussions, if you are in the habit of typing well, why stop? It's like someone faking an accent. If you are trying to fake an accent all day and then you go home and talk for five minutes in your real accent, you might very well mess up the next time you want to speak with an inflection.

 

3. Grammar Nazi's need to stop: It's not always about being a grammar nazi. I know 100% that there are school-aged children playing this game. I know 100% if someone keeps making the same spelling error, the same grammar error, then they will miss it in their school or work as well. As an Education major it's not about being elite or a "Nazi" but rather letting someone know if they repeatedly make a mistake. Often I will whisper instead of calling them out in the chat, but that is another story.

 

 

 

Go!

 

LMFAO!!!!!!!!

 

TLDR cus if u know NETHING its that the more u want they're 2 be gud grammer in posts teh more u will be saw as a grammer nazi princess ROFL

Just as an aside, but I generally come to video games as an escape from daily life - and like with most games, part of the appeal is that when I'm playing a game on my time, and with my money, I can relax, let my hair down a bit, and just enjoy myself without taking myself, the game, or how or what I say to anyone too seriously.

 

That's part of the appeal of the internet in general.

 

If I want to say, "Wow fellas, that's shure one heck of a wild sombich we just killed" - then it's my prerogative to do so, and quite frankly, I enjoy being able to relax. I get tired of trying to march to someone's imaginary rules because someone else imagined them. To a point, I see they have value in business to promote a standard of communication - but I'm not playing an MMO to be a businessman. I'm playing an MMO to get away from being a businessman.

... And I've seen 14 year-olds passing as 30 ...

 

Have to add this one too.

 

This here's is just 'twixt us fellas here on the forum, but I'm a lot more comfortable around the 14 year-olds that roam the internet trying to pass themselves off as 30, than I am the 30 year olds that roam the 'net passing themselves off as 14.

 

There, their, they're

Than, then

"merges" is not a word, you're looking for "mergers"

 

It only bothers me when people don't know third grade grammar. That and a calvacade of logical fallacies, but most people don't know they're committing them.

If you can't bother to speak or type properly, then chances are nothing you say will be of interest to me. I won't call you on it, I'll just ignore you and go on about my business.

 

Show a little effort, and I'll assume its down to poor education or a language barrier, and not a reflection of your character. However if you LAWLZ GRMR NAZI then I'll just go back to ignoring you.

 

On occasion in game there are reasons to type badly (in a hurry, etc.). On the net, even most forum posts now have a built in spell check and a preview post. (However with the dawn of mobile browsing, most people won't take the time to do so.)

 

 

TL;DR:

If you don't give me a reason to take you seriously, then I won't.

http://slyoyster.com/book-club/2010/stephen-fry-on-grammar-nazis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20slyoyster%20%28The%20Sly%20Oyster%29

 

Relevant

How much grammar is needed for: LFG HM ESSELES?

 

Exactly, it gets to the point and mostly everyone knows the majority of flashpoint abbreviations if not usually they will ask and answered on fleet.

From what I've seen in-game and learned from the responses, I believe the answer is that most people struggled with learning the rules of grammar in elementary school and have painful memories of that time, and thus now enjoy the safety of the internet, where they can display their own ignorance in a consequence-free environment. Anyone who attempts to correct them hurts their self-esteem and is met with aggression. I know these instances are not simple typos but rather are real misunderstandings of English when I see repeated confusion over the different "its," "theres," and "wheres." This isn't nitpicking over little issues like forgetting to use commas or capitalizing "I," but rather a real ignorance around the meaning of these words. And I certainly wouldn't call mastery of these rules "elitism," since any 5th grader should know this stuff.

 

Besides a lack of understanding grammar, the responses reveal a lack of reading comprehension. The OP wanted to find out the answer to a question that bothered him (or her?); namely why would educated people make exceptions to following the rules of grammar when playing a game, if they use proper grammar in every other situation. Nobody really responded to this, but instead immediately attacked him for being a "Grammar Nazi." Do people not read? I don't know the answer to the question, but perhaps people feel restricted by the rules of grammar and feel that the internet is a place where it is socially acceptable to not abide by these rules.

 

And really, please stop with the TL;DR responses. Is it really so hard to read a post? If you have the time to hang around on a computer game forum, I'm sure you can take the time out of your fast-paced and busy life to at least skim the main points of a post.

http://slyoyster.com/book-club/2010/stephen-fry-on-grammar-nazis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20slyoyster%20%28The%20Sly%20Oyster%29

 

Relevant

More Relevant

http://slyoyster.com/book-club/2010/stephen-fry-on-grammar-nazis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20slyoyster%20%28The%20Sly%20Oyster%29

 

Relevant

 

totally worth 5 minutes

 

More Relevant

 

that's a good one too

Edited May 25, 2012 by krisknife

Nobody really responded to this,

 

I've responded to him, and answered the question twice, as have a few others. The solution is that it's appropriate to talk to the audience you're addressing, in the level of formality or informality associated with the audience. The game is informal - therefore, the language rules associated are as well.

 

His question has been answered and re-answered, but he has refused to see or acknowledge it, instead becoming defensive. As such, nothing else can be done to help him when he doesn't acknowledge the responses to his question.

You know how some languages have formal and informal? I view gaming as an informal form of communication. I don't check my dictionary. I often use the wrong forms of a word in haste. I quite often do not use caps or punctuation. See I'm 36 and have a family. I've long ago finished school and now realize there are some more important things in life then crossing every single t and dotting every i. If someone wants to think they are better then me because they choose to... that's on them. I am here to just enjoy other people on a casual basis, not grade them on their grammar usage. If I can understand what they are saying without much effort and enjoy the company, that is all that is needed. Just my 2 cents on it.

 

Edit: I was born in 1975. We had a computer in the classroom when I was in 7th and 8th grade. In highschool we had computer labs and did many papers there. In fact, I was the first person in my school's freshman typing class to use a computer while everyone else in the class was still using standard typewriters. TBH using an oldschool typewriter is less forgiving then a computer as corrections were a pain in the rearend. The next quarter everyone was at a computer. Your information is a little off.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Desiirea

If people do not want to use proper grammar/spelling/punctuation, I don't care, that's they're business, but it also means there's a greater chance that I'm going to skip whatever it is they wrote. Too often I see one huge block of text in a post and wonder how I'm supposed to read it without my eyes going bugger, so I don't bother read it. I'm more forgiving with in-game chat, if someone doesn't use capitalization or punctuation for one sentence it's not a big deal as long as I understand what they're saying.

You have to remember this is all being posted on the internet. Which people from all over the world are typing. Everyone has different rules even for the English language. English isn't always the primary language for most people. Also, some people are attempting to type mid fight to give orders to those around them. You also have people who are dyslexic like myself. If i'm tired, my typing get horrible. I have to concentrate a lot harder then most people when i read and type. It's not something you grow out of, its something that I have to deal with. I get poked fun by the grammar Nazi's all the time. But i don't care. They don't realize that i struggle, but at least I try my best.

 

You could also blame the american school system for a lot of the grammar issues.

I took a class about anthropology that had a unit on linguistic anthropology. From that I learned that what you or anyone considers “proper” grammar today will be “improper” grammar some day. It’s only a matter of time, one generation, two, three and you will barely recognize the language. The evolution of language is completely natural and it makes no sense to try and stifle the organic emergent changes that are inevitable.

 

Tl:dr

People who complain about grammar are too dumb to realize their concerns are futile pissing in the wind.

Reading through this thread depresses me.

 

I care greatly about this matter because I believe that differential literacy is one of the primary drivers of the class stratification we all see taking place around us. I know that sounds like a really bold claim, but bear with me.

 

I have spent most of my life in an academic environment. After college I went to law school and then graduate school. I taught university classes for couple years. I have been coaching high school debate for around fifteen years, and I coached collegiate debate for a few years in grad school. I have worked with debaters from a variety of different backgrounds at several different types of schools.

 

I have observed three things:

 

1. It seems that fewer and fewer young people have strong written communication skills. This should come as no surprise to anyone here.

2. The writing skills of my public high school students run the gamut from incredibly strong to pitifully weak. Across the board, my students at competitive private high schools show apt skill in written communication.

3. Without exception, the people I know who achieve the societally-venerated benchmarks of academic/professional success, the ones who I feel certain will do very well for themselves in life, are those with strong written communication skills.

 

Without exception, the students I know who have gone to ivy league schools are those with excellent written communication skills. I have known some bright kids who were not good at communicating in writing, but none of them ever ended up at Dartmouth. I do not know where all my college students ended up, but all those I do know who went off to professional schools had excellent written communication skills. Every single student of mine who I know ended up in law school or business school or medical school had strong written communication skills. The same is true of all my law school classmates, for that matter. I had a student who won a competition for an enormous grant to start her own nonprofit venture. She was easily one of the best writers I have worked with, and I am sure that played a large part in her ability to put together a winning grant proposal.

 

Maybe you do not care about any of this. Maybe you never aspired to go to an ivy league school. Maybe you think that people who correct others' homophone use are snobs. Well, here is why it matters:

 

Whether you aspire to these things or not, they are overwhelmingly seen as good foundations for a life of financial security and success.

 

What I find particularly troubling is the circularity that I see between these two things. I feel increasingly like the socioeconomic stratification in our society mirrors and contributes to our differential levels of literacy. I see kids from well-off families who go to exclusive private schools leaving with skills that will allow them to do whatever they want in life. I also see kids at public high schools who are really bright, but far too few of them develop the skills that will allow them to succeed in life. If your law school admissions essay uses numerals in place of prepositions, the committee is just going to laugh and throw it out. Even the manager at the local Best Buy wants to hire someone literate enough not to use apostrophes to pluralize words, lest they find themselves with a makeshift sign telling customers that "Samsung's are sold out."

 

I envision a society thirty years from now that is significantly more stratified with significantly less room for upward social mobility, where most of the population is borderline illiterate (if you prefer, we could call it something friendlier like "internet literate") and all the doctors and lawyers and investment bankers come from the class of wealthy, fully literate people who went to private schools; a class mostly made up of the children of the literate students I see off to prestigious colleges and professional schools today.

No

 

id rather play wit a person tat is respectfull and types in tis manner

 

As opposed to say,

 

You're terrible newb! L2P *bleeping* *bleep*bads!?!!!

Edited May 25, 2012 by SajmanPeetee

I've responded to him, and answered the question twice, as have a few others. The solution is that it's appropriate to talk to the audience you're addressing, in the level of formality or informality associated with the audience. The game is informal - therefore, the language rules associated are as well.

 

His question has been answered and re-answered, but he has refused to see or acknowledge it, instead becoming defensive. As such, nothing else can be done to help him when he doesn't acknowledge the responses to his question.

 

OK, I'll admit you and a few more recent posts did get at his question; I just put that out in order to help refocus the discussion. But I still think that my point still stands. Mixing up different words isn't talking "informally;" it's just being ignorant.

Short answer: Yes but not majorly.

 

Long answer: You have a keyboard in front of you. if you are not willing to take the time to use the Shift keys and the punctuation keys then yes, I am going to look down on you. I'm taking the time to type punctuation and capitals and use full words rather that TXT-speak because I am considerate of my audience. You should do the same. I judge you by your typing.

 

This is not a cellphone with only number keys. This is a not a 300 baud chat session where every keystroke is adding to your parents' phone bill.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Mid combat, a facerolling "adds" or "tnk teh boss" in chat is OK. Informal language is OK between friends and guildies.

 

Bad spelling doesn't worry me much, however. Just punctuation and TXT-speak. And "rediculous". And "rouge".

 

This seems like a good place to mention Lizard's Gaming and Geekery Site.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Havokk

I truly believe that most people don't care or don't notice. If you look at page 2 on these forums, there is a thread titled '1.3 legecy perks - exp bonus' or something along those lines.

 

The OP in thread makes an intelligent argument and receives intelligent replies despite misspelling the word legacy. Actually, I do believe the thread is 3 pages in length and no one has at any point in the thread pointed towards the bad title.

 

Yes, uncapitalized letters and bad grammar lead me to believe that someone is either young or foreign but that doesn't necessarily mean someone is dumb or inferior.

Edit:

 

Or for that matter. Do you make assumptions on age or level of education when you see sloppy messages? Especially guild recruitment ones.

 

Nice use of a fragment there. It doesn't seem hypocritical in the very least.

Ok, here is my take on this, for what its worth.

 

I really do take pride in my writing. When I'm texting somebody I will backspace if I make a mistake and I rarely use abbreviations . . . . . . . . but, in a game it is totally different.

 

Sure, I get irratated when someone misspells a word. BUT, I also understand that they are playing a game. If I am in the middle of a warzone, guarding the eastern node by myself and suddenly there are three incoming enemy players, I'm not going to hit backspace because I add or subtract a couple letters. My team mates will get my general meaning, and hopefully come to assist me.

 

For the most part, having a significantly large vocabulary and spelling correctly is indicative of intelligence. For the most part. Like I said, this is a game, and should be treated as such . . . . it is NOT a valid way to measure someones intelligence by random quips in general message chat.

 

Are you at your best, intellectually, when playing SWTOR???? Do you want to flex your mental muscles while playing??? After a long days work, and I use my mind at my job all day, I want to relax and have fun while playing SWTOR. I'm not trying to show the other MMO players that I have above average intelligence.