Ok, I overheard someone in fleet talking about shield and absorb over 50% not making any difference. Then I hear other people saying that it does make a difference.

What's the deal?

I'll make it simple. If I have 54.67% absorption, am I absorbing 54.67% of the damage? And if I have 52.01% shield chance. Am I going to shield 52.01% of the time when attacked? Or am I simply over geared in these two stats because nobody can exceed 50%?

And what is the ideal stat scenario? 20% D, 50% Sh, 50% Ab?

I have no idea what those people on the fleet meant by it, but the only logical interpretation I could come up with is that, beyond the listed thresholds, the amounts do nothing. This simply isn't true. If you have a higher than 50% shield chance or higher than 50% absorb rating, you will shield that often (assuming you're appropriately counting the melee/ranged attacks that you can actually shield rather than paying attention to all attacks and basing values off of those) and absorb for the given amounts on those attacks you shield.

This, of course, assumes that the people you're talking to knew what they were talking about. It's quite possible they misconstrued the diminishing returns softcaps as maximum values for the attribute rather than contributing values from each individual rating, which seems just as likely.

Assuming they knew what they were talking about and that they believed they were telling the truth, the only possible explanation I can come up with is that they believed that there was negligible effective value to stacking abs or shield above the 50% threshold. The only possible explanation I can see for this is that the people saying such believe in stacking Endurance rather than mitigation and see the 50% mark as the point wherein you should get your mitigation stats before dumping everything else into Endurance (the logic behind this is sound in certain lights but no more valid than the mitigation stacking arguments).

I'll make it simple. If I have 54.67% absorption, am I absorbing 54.67% of the damage? And if I have 52.01% shield chance. Am I going to shield 52.01% of the time when attacked?

Yes. 54.67% of the hit is absorbed if you shield. 52.01% of attacks that don't get defended will get shielded.

And what is the ideal stat scenario? 20% D, 50% Sh, 50% Ab?

Different for each class. That looks roughly like a vanguard's distribution. There are different approaches but my vanguard would look more like 15/60/60 with all buffs.

(stuff)

I agree with what Kitru said.

Which class do you play?

Shadow / Assassin tanks can afford to stack up on absorb rating a lot more than shield rating because of your Kinetic Ward / Dark Ward which boosts your shield rating.

Just a side note.

Now I'm no math genius, but you should be able to calculate your way out of it..

The only thing I'm uncertain off is when armor mitigation kicks in..

Defense rating is the chance to dodge ANY attack. At some point the points you put into this is worth less and less.. So early on 50 points might be 5%, but later on another 50 points would only net you 0.2%.. Diminishing returns.

In my view that means that defense is always a good stat and should be aimed as close to dimishing returns as possible..

After defense the attack is either shieldable or non-shieldable.. Non shieldable the goes to your hitpoint pool.

If it's shieldable it has the shield chance to be absorbed and is then absorbed the amount specified.

With easy numbers like 50% and 50% and a hit worth 2000 damage.. 50% of the time you will only get hit by 1000 damage. Now if this was the point at which endurance gets better we can do the same calculation.

Say you have to choose between absorb or endurance against that same attack. 30 absorb would give you 2% absorb and 30 endurance would give you 300hp.

2% of 2000 is 80.. So half the time you would get hit for 920 hitpoints instead of getting having 300hp larger pool. That sounds like it's in favor of endurance, but what if that 2000 hit comes every 5 seconds the 300hp looks worse and worse..

Let's say you sacrifice a lot of absorb and end up with 25% absorb but is then sporting an epeen enhancing hp pool with 3000 extra hp from endurance mods. The same tiny hit would then hit you for 1500, catching up to your hp pool in 6 attacks.. Only 1 person like this, and that's your healer.

Now you run unto a nice big hit of 10000. Now the difference between 25 and 50% absorb turns into 2500hp,. Now your healer doesn't like you!!. He would much rather see you get a 5k hit than a 7.5k hit.

Now comes this big fact that makes it even more complex to make an informed decision.. Absorb only works "shield %" of the time, whereas Endurance works ALL the time.. Also, shield/absorb also only works against certain attacks.. Now most of the current endgame contains attacks that are shieldable, so the last fact should only worry you if you play a lot of pvp..

Basically in a perfect world you would carry a high shield/absorb set for fights with lots of attacks incoming, and a high endurance one for a fight with few large hits or dot heavy fights which bypass shield/absorb completely.

Defense stays good..

Also, keep an eye on the types of cooldowns and abilities you have.. Do you boost defense, then that is less important to carry in your gear, and so on.. Do you boost absorb then shield chance is much more important than absorb as a boost to absorb is useless if shield chance is low.. Cooldowns are used for the hard times in a fight, so you need your gear to compliment your cooldowns.

TL,DR There's no clear cut way of ever saying that one tank stat is better than the other.

Like others said, depending on your class. If you're a PT or Vanguard you can push Shield and Absorb quite a bit higher. Asassins, again you can push it higher but Im not sure how valuable it'll be.

For a Jugg, again it can go higher, but generally speaking it would be better to stack Defense beyond the 50/50 Shield/Absorb level. It's not that you can go over 50%, its just that it's overall more valuable to stack defense.

You should also take into account that it's a two roll system. First roll is Hit Miss Defend, second roll is Crit, Shield, with Absorb always absorbing the given amount if the attack is shielded. Meaning, as you stack more Defense, your overall mitigation goes higher but your Shield/Absorb technically loses value.

Again this is just my opinion, but taking current Augmented Campaign gear as BiS with a few adjustments you should be aiming for like:

Jugg:

30-32% Defense

50% Shield

50% Absorb

Assassin: Not sure about this one

Powertech:

17-20% Defense

50-55% Shield

55-60% Absorb

Hope that helps 8-)

But in summary, those guys on fleet were pretty much wrong. It sort of applies true to Juggs, but even then not really. Pre 1.2 it was more a case of Hit 50/50 and then stack tons of defense. But with augments and Campaign gear its very possible to push them stats a fair bit higher.

The only thing I'm uncertain off is when armor mitigation kicks in..

Damage Reduction (generally accomplished via armor but given through talents and a slew of other things) is factored in last, the difference of which (whether K/E or I/E) is determined by the kind of damage dealt by the attack.

Defense rating is the chance to dodge ANY attack.

You're wrong. Defense rating only applies to your defense chance, which only applies to melee/ranged (re: white damage) attacks. Your resistance chance (re: defense chance that applies to Force/Tech attacks, also known as "yellow damage") is completely unaffected by any of your stats and can only be increased by powers, talents, or set bonuses, and, even then, is generally increased by only small amounts (VGs and Shads can expect to see 2% resist chance; Guards don't get any).

After defense the attack is either shieldable or non-shieldable.

Just like with Defense chance, the difference in shieldability is based on the type of attack: melee/ranged (re: white damage) attacks can be shielded while Force/Tech (re: yellow damage) attacks cannot. It isn't some arbitrary determination that is hard to acknowledge.

Something to keep in mind for PvP (since NPCs cannot crit) is that the crit chance and shield chance use the same percentage roll to determine whichever happens and crit takes priority over shield. For example, if you have a 50% shield chance and your opponent has a 20% crit chance, they're both standard. As soon as the combined crit + shield chance is greater than 100% however (say, 60% crit chance and 50% shield chance), the crit chance pushes remaining shield chance off (60% crit and 50% shield end up being a 60% crit chance and a 40% shield chance).

TL,DR There's no clear cut way of ever saying that one tank stat is better than the other.

The best advice I can give for tank stats is to ensure that your gearing strategy matches your healers' style of healing. Both mitigation and Endurance stacking gear strategies (as well as a whole spectrum of gearing strategies between the two) have been demonstrated to be effective at clearing all of the content in the game in roughly equal measure. Some healers prefer to constantly keep the tank topped off; these healers operate best with high mitigation stacked tanks. Some healers prefer to minimize overheal by keeping their tanks stay at ~90%; these healers operate best with high Endurance stacked tanks. Some healers, from a psychological perspective, simply prefer to deal with higher hp pools. If you're really interested in optimizing yourself, ask your healer(s) whether they'd like to see you with more hp or more mitigation (if you're up for it, tweak your gear a bit one way or the other and ask them whether it was better before or after).

Assassin: Not sure about this one

Shad/Sins should have roughly 30/60/60 def/shield/abs chances with KW/DW up.

This thread is in parts abysmal. How can you even discuss generic values on this?

First the percent you have on the character sheet have nothing to do with dr. Your rating determines that and different classes will have different values with the same rating.

Kithru above is atleast doing something but still that is way to generic since even something like switching in an absorb proc relic from a stat ones such as a pvp defense will shift optimal defense down and absorb way down.

Also those values are a to low for an end game tank. How on earth do you even get below 65% shield with dark ward up? Not even without set bonus can I even go so low.

An end game Sin (with pvp relics) should according to me be at roughly 450 defense, 670 shield and 670 absorb. By this he will be around 79% weapon/kinetic mitigation in a 4k incomming dps fight. If I used a absorb proc relic I would drop almost 20 defense, 90 absorb and then some change from shield. This will probably down my mitigation though slightly by something like 0.15.

First the percent you have on the character sheet have nothing to do with dr. Your rating determines that and different classes will have different values with the same rating.

Since most tanks use largely the same spec and set bonuses are standardized across all tiers of gear, we can easily make the assumption that pre-rating mitigation is identical. As such, indicating that the recommended mitigation percentages apply only to a specific class means that they are applicable since the only differences between values would be predicated upon differing mitigation ratings.

Kithru above is atleast doing something but still that is way to generic since even something like switching in an absorb proc relic from a stat ones such as a pvp defense will shift optimal defense down and absorb way down.

The minor differences in ratings achieved by various tanks is covered by the adjective "roughly" that I used. The numbers aren't, nor do I think that they have ever been listed as, a definitive assignment of what the optimum stat allocation is. They are simply a guideline, and, as such, are allowed to be vague to account for variation within gearing levels and personal preference (such as using a proc relic rather than a PvP relic).

Since most tanks use largely the same spec and set bonuses are standardized across all tiers of gear, we can easily make the assumption that pre-rating mitigation is identical. As such, indicating that the recommended mitigation percentages apply only to a specific class means that they are applicable since the only differences between values would be predicated upon differing mitigation ratings.

You failed to see the problem then that started the thread in the first place. People talk about percentages without even caring what class. Also some replies here are talking percentages without even caring which class and well you can talk about standardized things all you want, it still don't make it true. The only time that ever apply is when you first divide the people into the three groups.

But threads like these keep people yapp about 25, 50, 50 and how it after that goes down etc. Blahblah.

The minor differences in ratings achieved by various tanks is covered by the adjective "roughly" that I used. The numbers aren't, nor do I think that they have ever been listed as, a definitive assignment of what the optimum stat allocation is. They are simply a guideline, and, as such, are allowed to be vague to account for variation within gearing levels and personal preference (such as using a proc relic rather than a PvP relic)

I see that point and seen those easy points flowing around alot but they are not correct to begin with.

With a full campaign budget: no matter what relics I use I would never go all the way up to 30% defense as a Sin tank. Highest would be 29% (shield/absorb click relic) and then downward depending on specific relics.

60% shield chance is not even end game gear. I would say 67.8 - 68% (with pvp relics) and then adjust for other relics.

Absorb should land around 62.3 - 62.8%, again with pvp relics. With absorb proc relic and 1 pvp it should however land at roughly 60%.

Nothing of what I just said is true for any other class. If I talked about a Juggernaut for example I would have started from almost 30% defense which is well over 100 more rating.

@Dhariq

How are you getting these ratings? You must be using the mitigation heavy mods and sacrificing endurance because I do not approach those stats.

I'm a shadow with modified campaign gear and full augments, and with an exotech stim i have:

454 defense (28.86%)

562 shield (65.41% with buff)

535 absorb (58.95%)

2362 endurance (26378 hp)

What is your endurance and hp at?

Yeah only at 24.6 k health with buffs. But I scanned months worth of logs with a small prog I coded and well I only need 24 k to not having a chance to be two shot. Perhaps I am lucky, what do I know, but it works for me. But well that is another discussion where I think that you always go for mitigation when you got enough hp and are not doing any progression raiding. When/If new content comes up I will ofc switch out some stuff to give people some room to look around and be headless chickens.

The really big gain btw is however the MK-3 Shield which is lightyears above the Campaign one with a whopping 47 more defensive stats at the cost of only 31 end. Also alot of people do not really seem to follow that 1-2% loss of mitigation will mean that you take 4-8% more damage roughly.

But the real point was that not even with the obscene amount of 1789 stat budget you never want to goto 30% defense as a Sin tank and that 60% shield chance is not even close to end game.

With your stat budget I would btw switch out a tad defense for absorbtion since at that budget anything below 60 is to low. Doing it will increase you mitigation slightly. One can ofc debate about dark ward beeing eaten up faster etc but that is only for adds and trash so that is no big issue anyway.

I have been looking for something like this.

I am a sin tank, atm have 24.x k hp, 30% def, 45 shield, and 51% absorb. at work rite now so cant give you exact ratings.

This is without the pvp relics. I am looking to buy one, but cannot decide if I should buy a defence one and then put those point into absorb, or should get an absorb one directly. having a 65% shield chance with dark ward seems to be good, but maybe getting a shield relic is the way to go.

what would you guys recommend.

Also, I found this very useful.

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/07/swtor-optimal-tanking-gear-guide.html

Not having any specifics here but I will give it a shot...

For your budget you are WAY to high in defense. You should have something like 4% lower with that budget and that should be switch directly for absorbtion.

I would suggest that you get 2 pvp relics with defense. Then you stack absorb mods and not defense ones. Then balance it all with augments. You want to land around the same defense you have (perhaps a tad lower), with an absorb increase of atleast 10% and a percent or two extra shield. This will be possible even with the battlemaster version of the imperiling serenity relic.

Shadow Tank here on Begeren Colony.

I've used an unorthodox build and it has gotten me through HM EC consistently just fine with no issues. This is a mix of mostly campaign (no MH/offhand). My theory (which I'm aware is not the most efficient nor anywhere close to the best out there) is to rely more on my self heals from tele throw and large pool of HP + decent defense chance to power through a fight. Each tick of telekinetic throw heals for 607. Combined with the Campaign healing relic every 20 seconds or so that's a decent amount of self heals I can put on myself. That's somewhere around a 3.3k heal per 3 stacks of harnessed shadows assuming Combat Technique procs twice and the healing relic procs. Even without that extra 443 heal that's a fairly decent number.

I figure on increasing my percentage heals since the hits I'm taking from the boss aren't getting exponentially bigger or anything. I realize I could probably be more effective if I swapped in PvP relics instead but I rather like that 30k number

Another thing I enjoy about having such a large pool of health is the 10% heal (3k instant medpack) from Battle Readiness. Essentially a 2nd medpack. Sure there are better ways to do it but there isn't any content yet and I doubt there ever will be that require perfectly tuned gear. Not to mention the attention you get from being that guy with 30k+ HP lol.

Once again, I do realize I take more damage but if it consistently works on the current "hardest content" who's to say it's wrong?

I really like your tanking calculator by the way! It's been more than helpful

Fully buffed/exo stim

HP: 30056

Damage Reduc: 40.03%

Defense Chance: 27.78%

Shield Chance w/o ward: 45.xx% (65% w/ward)

Shield Absorb w/o passive proc relic active: 43.xx% (61.xx% when passive relic procs)

Once again, I do realize I take more damage but if it consistently works on the current "hardest content" who's to say it's wrong?

YOU ARE WRONG! No seriously though, the only thing that would be wrong would be if you said that the hp gain would give you higher overall mitigation. The break point for that is way way lower than any raid content.

I really like your tanking calculator by the way! It's been more than helpful

Thanks.

Oh yeah totally understand that but that big 30k is just...mmmmmyesssss.

I haven't done any calculations to see the actual numerical difference of my setup vs optimal setup yet either. That would be nice to see.

Do not check it as it will make you feel bad. The difference in incomming damage in like a kephess fight will make you cringe in how badly you mitigate compared to a 25k hp "mitigation Sin".

Why it becomes alot worse than you think is because of the simple fact that you do not start at 0 but at 3/4. So 1% mitigation loss for example will become something close to 4% more damage taken.

I've got a full set of defense augments and a full set of absorb augments on standby for when I need them in the end. I'm sure I'll end up having them for the new Operation. I probably have a bunch of 26 grade absorb stuff j-chillin in my inventory too.

At this point I've just been running around going "MEHHHH DGAF bzzzzzt (lightsaber sound)" etc etc.

I'll have to go back and find the optimal setup in the thread and switch over to it here soon.

I do not think they will ever push hard on gear though. Sure it is fun to debate things but tbh the only thing you need in this game is check if you can be two shot, if not then either stack mitigation so the healers can take a nap while raiding, or stack endurance and make newbies think your awesome.

Edit: I realized that one time that it do make a differense is when you want to carry/gear up some new healer since then you ofc need to be on top of the game. In those cases it is awesome to be an optimal mitigation tank and not just a cool looking "mana sponge".

Here's that Mr. Robot you asked for! It's just from the first boss on HM TFB.

I have no clue how to decipher it really.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/4bf40cc0-1ffc-4432-8c7d-3248a0d8b625/player/1#d=2,b=1