I'm just going to throw this out there: the Jedi and Republic aren't all that 'good' either, they're just not as open about how they do things as the Sith and the Empire are.

The fact of the matter is that these things are put in the game specifically to address the fact that it actually *is* okay in the Empire. If we as players are made to feel uncomfortable by it, then the writing and design has done its job. But our characters, by design, by the fact that this is their world, do not necessarily have to feel the same way. The treatment of Vette (and Quinn) is not a heinous crime in this universe. Bioware would ruin it by making it any other way.

 

Amen. I find interesting in the Kotaku article how the author wishes to assign to take no responsibility for having gone out of his way to explore the darkest options of the Vette, assigning all the blame for the immorality of the content to Bioware, and THEN proceeds to feel morally superior for 'feeling bad about it'. I think it is to Bioware's credit that a great number of the dark side options have consequences that leave the player feeling the weight of his/her choice.

 

Case in point, in the Black Talon flashpoint you have the option of killing a character fairly early on (trying to avoid too much of a spoiler here). If you exercise that option, the result is a fairly hollow victory.

 

Nonetheless, I feel that the issue at heart here is less about whether or not Vette's story arc in and of itself is sexist, but the fact that there is no comparable male counterpart reveals the institutionalized sexism in the culture surrounding the developer's decisions (and by that I mean more gamer culture as a whole than I do Bioware specifically). I've done a lot of thinking on this topic since I first saw the thread, and I find myself agreeing with the views presented in the "The Mary Sue" article (thank you MDav for the link).

 

Essentially, the real issue is the fact that there is no male equivalent companion who can be tortured and later romanced. True, there are male slaves in the game with shock collars, but you are not given the extensive options to cultivate an abusive love-hate relationship with them . Furthermore, in general, there tends to be a lot of sexualizing the female characters in the game, without an appropriate similar level applied to the male characters:

 

The cantinas are filled with scantily clad females dancing around holographic stripper poles, but there are no equivalent male exotic dancers. Most of the female sith lords I've encountered thus far as designed as attractive females, while most of the male sith lords wear garish costumes.

 

I don't, however, feel this is something Bioware should be demonized for. In general, I feel like Bioware puts in more effort than most game companies to be sensitive to issues of race and sexual orientation, and I believe this is merely an oversight in the context of a larger game industry that still struggles with a lot of un-investigated institutional sexism. I do feel though, that this is an opportunity for Bioware to take note of the subtle unconscious biases that have led to certain decisions, and to take a more gender positive decisions in the future.

 

While I don't particularly wish to look at half naked men, I enjoy the feminine eye candy that has been given in the game, and I think it is only fair that masculine eye candy be presented for those who desire it (and to remain equitable).

Maybe taking a more open-minded stance and getting crapped on for it drove BW's writers to the traditional sexist route for SWTOR.

 

Maybe ME3 will be a step back in the right direction. I suppose we'll see.

 

While I understand that it's important to look at media critically and say "yeah, there are things happening here that are sexist/ableist/insert-ist-here", I don't think that one should automatically assume that because a work of fiction portrays something that IRL is tasteless, taboo, or illegal, that the creators of the work of fiction are proposing that these ideals make their way into the real world.

 

I'm not saying you can't criticize a work because those things make you uncomfortable, not at all, but what was the context of those deaths? Was the book first-person, or even limited omniscient PoV as told by Revan? These things matter; you also have to ascertain how or why these deaths were portrayed the way they were -- that way we can delineate between Revan's possible sexism as opposed to us reading sexism in a fictional text and ascribing that belief to the writer. Is it possible that this was a deliberate stylistic choice to create tension? You say it's uncomfortable how these women died, perhaps that had a purpose in the narrative, as opposed to the writer being a sexist hack.

 

Yes, there are aspects of the entire Star Wars universe that are sexist. It's a blatantly sexist universe; it's not like our own where we point the finger and say "sexism bad". In the GFFA, these things are (regrettably) accepted to a better degree than they are here. This is why the "context" and "commentary" that people are looking for isn't there. These things are the norm in that world. To provide a commentary on How Bad It Is would just break the fourth wall and essentially jerk us right out of immersion.

 

Creative endeavours oftentimes require the creator (or the player, in terms of MMORPGs) to extend beyond their own personal belief systems. Social injustices without commentary create tension and conflict and flavour a world. It's not up to the creator to hold our hands and point to the injustices and say "remember, this is wrong". That's where personal media literacy comes in.

 

I don't have a problem with things being pointed to as sexist, because yeah, often they are. However, I have a problem with people who can't fathom the idea of working in a universe that is not our own, creating characters that are not us. I have a problem with people who think that because you write a sexist story or a sexist character, you're inherently sexist.

 

There's sexism in Star Wars because it's one of the shadowy, seedy canon features of the GFFA.

Edited February 3, 2012 by tehjai

After playing with Vette I bought my wife a shock collar....

 

But who gets to wear it? You or the wife?

 

Nonetheless, I feel that the issue at heart here is less about whether or not Vette's story arc in and of itself is sexist, but the fact that there is no comparable male counterpart reveals the institutionalized sexism in the culture surrounding the developer's decisions (and by that I mean more gamer culture as a whole than I do Bioware specifically).

<snip>

Essentially, the real issue is the fact that there is no male equivalent companion who can be tortured and later romanced.

 

<snip>

The cantinas are filled with scantily clad females dancing around holographic stripper poles, but there are no equivalent male exotic dancers. Most of the female sith lords I've encountered thus far as designed as attractive females, while most of the male sith lords wear garish costumes.

 

<snip>

 

While I don't particularly wish to look at half naked men, I enjoy the feminine eye candy that has been given in the game, and I think it is only fair that masculine eye candy be presented for those who desire it (and to remain equitable).

 

These are all valid points, and I agree that it's less a marked attempt to be sexist and more indicative of the systematic problem. But BioWare has taken strides to avoid the most egregious of sexist tropes in game (plate bikinis, All Male Leaders All The Time).

 

I do have one small counterpoint to make though: At the Promenade in Nar Shaddaa, you can see male dancers; but I agree, they're not as widespread as the exoticised female dancers.

 

What bothers me re: Vette, upon further reflection, is that her closest male equivalent is Quinn, whom a character can sexually harrass and belittle and eventually pursue a romance with. I'll assume that while both genders can shock Vette/belittle Quinn, it is quite gendered and rather sexist to have physical punishment -> romance for male characters, and conversely emotional punishment -> romance for female characters. Maybe this will change when/if the same sex options become available and if BioWare doesn't create companions specifically to address this niche (which I really hope they don't do, but that's another rambling post for another day), and both options become available to both genders.

 

If there was anything at all in the SW storyline that makes me give BioWare the side-eye, it's that dichotomy.

Edited February 3, 2012 by tehjai

simple solution , monitor what your kids play , and for that matter what the watch on TV and the Internet , don't push you responsibility to the rest of us , I have 2 kids its my responsibility what they do not yours.

 

 

OMG!! People taking personal responsibly over what they let their kids watch, listen to or play and not expecting producers and or developers to assume that responsibility!?!?!? What madness is this!!!

You know ... the more I read these responses from you, it seems like you went out of your way to go AFTER the darker aspects of the sith warrior story, and are then saying "see, this is what it makes you do!"

 

You do realize that you have CHOICES, right? Some of those choices can be dark. Some can be light. My sith warrior has never tortured Vette. She's my friend, my ally, and has my back when things get rough. And if someone tried to hurt her, or called her "just some lowly slave", I'd beat the stuffing out of them. Or just kill them, that's probably easier.

 

Just because you went whole-hog into the dark side of things doesn't mean that's how the entire game is. You CHOSE to make it that way. Bioware simply gave you the option. You're the one who gleefully embraced it, and now seem to be up in arms about what you CHOSE to do.

 

 

Excellent. The OP's rant totally comes across on the lines of, "How dare this game give me options that let me realize what I really like to get off on!"

And just in case anyone still can't wrap their heads around it: WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS. WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS. WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS.

 

The problem is, some people are their characters. As the Mary Sue article points out, there are plenty of players out there who are bragging IRL about the mistreatment of Vette.

 

These are obviously not the majority of the player base. But these people are out there, and they are the same players who can't handle hearing a woman's voice in voice chat without immediately starting in with sexist comments, who bully female players right out of a game. While it's certainly not BioWare's fault that these players exist (they existed long before TOR came along) it certainly does nothing to help female gamers find a home in TOR when they get to hear male players rant in general chat, on the forums, and on other social media sites (Youtube comments, etc.) about how much fun it is to shock their female slave "who deserved it for not knowing her place."

 

-Macheath.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I'll assume that while both genders can shock Vette/belittle Quinn, it is quite gendered and rather sexist to have physical punishment -> romance for male characters, and conversely emotional punishment -> romance for female characters.

If you play a pureblood you can use your wonderful racial ability and *****slap everyone.

But I suppose that doesn't count.

I'm going to have my sith get rid of all those kinds of guys, he isnt really evil at all. The main reason he hates the republic is because of the genocide on his people. And he beleives trolling, especially on women, is a sign of weakness, and an idiotic idea.

The problem is, some people are their characters. As the Mary Sue article points out, there are plenty of players out there who are bragging IRL about the mistreatment of Vette.

 

Yes, there are, but those people really need to learn to separate reality from fantasy. These are people who are arguably unhealthy IRL, and it's not the game's fault for that. BioWare shouldn't feel compelled to remove what is an arguably realistic and gritty story option because there are people out there who enjoy it.

 

And it still doesn't mean that nobody can draw the line between player and character. For the healthier amongst us, we can draw that line. Generalizing works both ways here, and I don't want to be considered mentally ill or worse because I like to pretend that I'm a heartless bee-with-an-itch via my bounty hunter.

 

It's immature to voice your IRL pleasure of shocking Vette; but it's also immature to literally not be able to comprehend that some people are playing a role that is detached from their IRL morality.

...and no the OPTION to make slightly less evil options does not justify the fact that in a game targeted towards folks as young as 13 you have the option of abusing who is essentially your giddy playmate by electrocuting her repeatedly in between flirting sessions.

 

...The fact that EA, Bioware and ESRB let something come through with a Teen rating, marketed at a younger audience that contains intense sexual violence.

 

Do understand that just because a game is rated "T" does not mean that the game is targeting Teens? I mean you understand the concepts behind the rating system, right? It's not to tell buyers which group the game is targeted to but rather to inform them which is the youngest group that can play said game. Ratings are not about reaching a single demographic but rather they are about reaching the broadest demographic possible, in order to gain the most profit. So stop whining about how this game is, "targeted towards folks as young as 13" and understand that it's targeted to all people, which happens to include some as young as 13. Also, just because people as young as 13 can play it doesn't mean that they should. Their parents need to monitor the game to see if what is presented is acceptable for their children. The rating system is not a watchdog or nanny for lazy parents.

Edited February 3, 2012 by daringdragoon

If you play a pureblood you can use your wonderful racial ability and *****slap everyone.

But I suppose that doesn't count.

 

And the best part? When you do it to Khem Val, the huge, mean-looking, indestructible warrior ******? He cries. He cries like a whiny child with a skinned knee.

the rating system is not a watchdog or nanny for lazy parents.

 

internet high five

And the best part? When you do it to Khem Val, the huge, mean-looking, indestructible warrior ******? He cries. He cries like a whiny child with a skinned knee.

 

No way?! Oh I'm SO creating a SI pureblood just to see that for myself.. and he's going to be a body type 1. For the lulz.

internet high five

 

Back at ya!

Rofl. What a wuss.

Because these things don't exist in the real world...not at all...I like how to labeled empire in your image to be evil...it shows you lack the will to understand the events that occur and how emotion take in place.

I have a 50 Guardian and a 36 Marauder...

 

Solution? Release Vette and don't "harass" her? My Marauder rewards good work and punishes foolishness(about 3 or 4 stupidly incompetent officers who almost killed me or turned on me are dead by now.). It's very reminiscent of Vader actually. So Star Wars must be all bad writing. The Galactic Empire also encouraged slavery and racism all the way up, if you can't bear the pain of it go light side? Most of the questionable things you mention my Marauder either didn't do and he's a Dark Sider too, I don't see the problem.

The thing I find most alarming about the OPs position is the apparent assertion that just because Vette is a female and a slave, that the only violence that can be directed at her is SEXUAL in nature.

 

1) Because of the idea of the "Rorschach test." It's not what's actually there, but what you perceive to be there. Perceiving that Vette's torture MUST be sexual in nature says a few telling things about an individual.

 

2) It assumes that this is the only reason males like a male Sith Warrior or the jailer at the Academy would keep Vette around, which implies that all men are rapists given the opportunity, and will gladly torture a woman into submission to have their way with her. As a man, I find this idea incredibly offensive.

 

3) It assumes that a woman can have NO OTHER VALE as a slave other than a sexual one. A female slave can't be good at keeping a house clean, or cooking, or looking after younglings, or running errands (such as crew skills), or unlocking an ancient Sith temple to allow one to claim an ancient and powerful artifact. Nope, the only thing, according to the OP's point of view, a female slave is good for is taking off her clothes and lying on her back. If I were a woman, I'd find this idea incredibly offensive. Even as a slave, I'd hope people would appreciate I had more to offer than holes.

 

Honestly, the OP is reading more into what the game portrays than what's really in there, and his/her conclusions are very disturbing. . . not because what the game is saying is disturbing, but because this person can so easily fall into that pattern of thinking. Which I sum up in an earlier post by quoting Doctor Sigmund Freud:

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

please cease from this type of analysis for the future. you do realize this is a game that isn't meant to be considered seriously, at all. any problems you have with the depictions of various themes you mentioned can be answered with this simple retort: the empire is evil.

 

derp. OP, care to tell us what paper you are procrastinating on by writing this nonsense? you are probably a humanities major.

derp. OP, care to tell us what paper you are procrastinating on by writing this nonsense? you are probably a humanities major.

 

lolololz

you are probably a humanities major.

 

I'm thinking "guy who took women's studies" personally, since so much of their argument reads as white-knighty mansplaining and concern trolling FOR TEH WOMENZ

As a mother and grandmother I actually have to agree with the folks who lay the responsibility of parenting on the parents. Age alone is not the sole factor in what is appropriate for a child.

As an example had this game been around when my kids were still kids I would never have allowed my eldest who tended towards the more immature side to play this even at 15 or 16. My youngest on the other hand who was far more mature I would have allowed to play republic only at 13 and empire by 14.

Those same considerations went into games that were available when they were growing up especially any game that depicts killing of other sentient beings or animals just because the animal is there. If I set the ratings on games I would look a lot more closely at the violence, not just is there a huge blood spray or decapitations. Every game out there has senseless needless violence, some just don't have so much of it aimed at other humans.

I would be upset about the slavery, sexual misconduct, and all that if you did not gain darkside points for those acts. A lesson in these are evil acts and the more you do them the more evil you become isn't such a bad lesson for our youth to be exposed to.

That some people are bragging about those acts simply reinforces just how desperately our youth are in need of learning these are evil acts.

What is more disturbing is that if you could uncover the real ages of those bragging it is likely you would find the vast majority are, chronologically speaking, adults. Again age does not dictate maturity. I've known 13 year olds who were far more mature than some of the 40 year olds I've known. The ratings system is a guideline to aid parents in making decisions, not to do their job for them.