Anyways fast forward to update 6.0. I am fed up in tanking and decided to try the burst Deception spec and level him to 75. Today I just copied Krea's talent tree he made in his new video, and used it to buy first set peace today (so I only watch a minute of the video) and want into doing my first WZs. I used to think my Combat Sentinal was bursty this thing drops people as if they are level 60, and you are 75 in WZ when you start the rotation from stealth.

yeah that's what I figured, lol. I am going to make one just to monkey with in WZs. I am not a good melee DPS, so I am really curious to see what a ******* like me can do on such an easy burst class.

This absolutely the case with sniper only a handful can truley play the class at the level needed to be god tier

I agree, Sniper has a LOT of abilities and they require a lot of skill and knowing the class inside out (like Operatives) to truly feel threatening.

A bad Sniper/Operative is global fodder, while a good one can carry an entire game. No one can level a Sniper to 75 and just start facerolling/facetanking by smashing their keyboard, like was the case with 5.0 Mercs.

No one can level a Sniper to 75 and just start facerolling/facetanking by smashing their keyboard, like was the case with 5.0 Mercs.

That's true. I can take long breaks and hop on my sorcs, mercs and it doesn't take long to adjust and relearn stuff... If I take a long break from sniper, I do poorly for a long period of time. In fact, last time I felt like playing the class, I just re-rolled new sniper toons to learn the abilities at a gradual pace and it served me better doing that.

I was the one who mentioned the podcast, however, I did not claim that you guys said Sniper was FOTM, rather that you guys agreed it was one of the top 3 performing specs. FOTM =/= Top 3.

In that case yea, Sniper is definitely a top 3 spec performance-wise, I stand by that statement.

In that case yea, Sniper is definitely a top 3 spec performance-wise, I stand by that statement.

Sniper might be third. I could understand that. But op and sin are clearly one and two (in whatever order you want). To put sniper or lightning sorc ahead of either of them is laughable at this point. Not saying they necessarily need huge nerfs or anything, but they are the best performing classes right now without question.

It's natural for op and sin mains not to want to acknowledge though, which is why I mentioned that originally. Then again, I didn't actually watch the podcast, so I might be acting a bit unfair here.

Also, it seems to me that mercs and maras are still performing very well in their own right. It's not like they got nerfed in any way. With their new stealth out every 30 seconds, maras are that much harder to focus and kill early in rounds.

Sniper might be third. I could understand that. But op and sin are clearly one and two (in whatever order you want). To put sniper or lightning sorc ahead of either of them is laughable at this point. Not saying they necessarily need huge nerfs or anything, but they are the best performing classes right now without question.

 

It's natural for op and sin mains not to want to acknowledge though, which is why I mentioned that originally. Then again, I didn't actually watch the podcast, so I might be acting a bit unfair here.

 

Also, it seems to me that mercs and maras are still performing very well in their own right. It's not like they got nerfed in any way. With their new stealth out every 30 seconds, maras are that much harder to focus and kill early in rounds.

I think you might be biased as well friend. Here's a pic of something that's pretty normal for Lightning Sorc in ranked atm: https://i.imgur.com/6i26gKo.jpg

Here's another one: https://i.imgur.com/nsbVxfU.jpg

They are effortlessly pulling 12-16k DPS, Thundering Blast hits like a truck with Eyrin's Haste and the DoT from Stormwatch tactical is stronger than Sin's Awakened Flame.

I'm saying this as a Sin, the burst from Sin's opener should be nerfed, that's fair. But Sorcerer is monstrous right now, they even have insanely high Damage Reduction, it's almost as much as a Marauder. Sniper, Sorc and Operative are the top 3 classes atm for sure. You can all hate on Sins all you want, but just wait until you see some of the top players on Sniper, Operative and Sorc. It's scary.

Edit: I guess my point is, for the past month since the expansion launched, people have been unable to get past the fact that after an Assassin's Opener, they do terrible sustained damage. There is so much more to a fight than the opener. And in ranked, NO ONE dies to the opener because they get peels, heals, off-guards, etc from their team mates. I will admit, in Regular Warzones, Assassins are monstrous. But in ranked, I'm sorry, it's just not the case. Just go queue up ranked and see for yourself, I can't even make this stuff up. If there's a lightning sorc in your match, just compare their performance to the Assassins. When you focus an Assassin, they drop like flies. When you focus a Lightning Sorc, they have so much DR and ways to kite and mitigate your damage, they are harder to kill then Sins. It's insane. But let's keep focusing on the first 30 seconds of the match and ignore the other 4 minutes 30 seconds.

I 100% support Sins being nerfed if it means people will open their eyes and realize that there are much better specs out there that deserve attention.

I think you might be biased as well friend. Here's a pic of something that's pretty normal for Lightning Sorc in ranked atm: https://i.imgur.com/6i26gKo.jpg

 

They are effortlessly pulling 12-16k DPS, Thundering Blast hits like a truck with Eyrin's Haste and the DoT from Stormwatch tactical is stronger than Sin's Awakened Flame.

 

I'm saying this as a Sin, the burst from Sin's opener should be nerfed, that's fair. But Sorcerer is monstrous right now, they even have insanely high Damage Reduction, it's almost as much as a Marauder. Sniper, Sorc and Operative are the top 3 classes atm for sure. You can all hate on Sins all you want, but just wait until you see some of the top players on Sniper, Operative and Sorc. It's scary.

I'm not hating on sins dude. I've said op is as good or better. Sniper and sorc are clearly good, but they are not on the level of stealth classes as yet from what I've seen. Granted, ranked isn't popping as steadily on SF as it seems to be on DM. It's possible my opinions may change once the ranked season actually starts.

Also, a freecasting sorc in a heal game isn't the best example. A sorc under any kind of pressure, or has to do any amount of kiting or chasing obviously isn't doing 15k dps.

Edit: I guess my point is, for the past month since the expansion launched, people have been unable to get past the fact that after an Assassin's Opener, they do terrible sustained damage. There is so much more to a fight than the opener. And in ranked, NO ONE dies to the opener because they get peels, heals, off-guards, etc from their team mates. I will admit, in Regular Warzones, Assassins are monstrous. But in ranked, I'm sorry, it's just not the case. Just go queue up ranked and see for yourself, I can't even make this stuff up. If there's a lightning sorc in your match, just compare their performance to the Assassins. When you focus an Assassin, they drop like flies. When you focus a Lightning Sorc, they have so much DR and ways to kite and mitigate your damage, they are harder to kill then Sins. It's insane. But let's keep focusing on the first 30 seconds of the match and ignore the other 4 minutes 30 seconds.

 

I 100% support Sins being nerfed if it means people will open their eyes and realize that there are much better specs out there that deserve attention.

See, this is biased sin main hogwash. I've played a bunch of ranked by now on SF. The team with more stealth classes on their team wins the vast majority of the time. Because ops and sins actually do real damage now, unlike in 5.x, and they still have all the utility that they had before, and more with swapping tacticals.

I'm not just focusing on the first 30 seconds and the opener either. I've never said that. Sins, with their multiple stealth out heal to fulls, swapping tacticals, and offguarding. And they have very good burst to boot. Lightning sorcs can be controlled and interrupted once polarity shift is on cooldown, and as long as you chase and pursue after phasewalk, they are not that hard to kill. Sins aren't nearly as squishy as sin mains like to pretend, because they always discount stealthing out and healing to full.

And I'll repeat it for the 50th time, because you still seem to assume I think sins are overpowered and need to be nerfed. I haven't come to that conclusion yet. I'm simply saying they are one of the top 2 performing classes right now.

I'm not just focusing on the first 30 seconds and the opener either. I've never said that. Sins, with their multiple stealth out heal to fulls, swapping tacticals, and offguarding. And they have very good burst to boot. Lightning sorcs can be controlled and interrupted once polarity shift is on cooldown, and as long as you chase and pursue after phasewalk, they are not that hard to kill. Sins aren't nearly as squishy as sin mains like to pretend, because they always discount stealthing out and healing to full.

 

And I'll repeat it for the 50th time, because you still seem to assume I think sins are overpowered and need to be nerfed. I haven't come to that conclusion yet. I'm simply saying they are one of the top 2 performing classes right now.

My reply is to everyone, not just you to specifically, which is why I said all instead of you. So don't take it so personally lol.

I'm not going to get into another debate regarding how strong or weak you think sins are because this isn't the thread for it. Simply put, we are approaching the time when more classes are getting fully geared with set bonuses and tacticals, not just stealth classes. And are beginning to see exactly what all these classes are capable of. Regarding a freecasting sorc, a lot of these sorcs were tunneled, I'll be sure to screencap the damage taken for them along with their insane 12k+ DPS to prove my point that they are strong. If you tunnel a sin like you do a sorc, a sin won't even have half of that sorc's dps.

Edit: https://i.imgur.com/v3Dlb5c.jpg - Jugg was tunneled for 650k damage here

https://i.imgur.com/Pp4UZmn.jpg - Sorc took 450k (everyone else took 350-400k damage) and still did incredible damage. I can post more of these too btw. Sorc, even when tunneled, does incredible damage this expansion.

My reply is to everyone, not just you to specifically, which is why I said all instead of you. So don't take it so personally lol.

 

I'm not going to get into another debate regarding how strong or weak you think sins are because this isn't the thread for it. Simply put, we are approaching the time when more classes are getting fully geared with set bonuses and tacticals, not just stealth classes. And are beginning to see exactly what all these classes are capable of. Regarding a freecasting sorc, a lot of these sorcs were tunneled, I'll be sure to screencap the damage taken for them along with their insane 12k+ DPS to prove my point that they are strong. If you tunnel a sin like you do a sorc, a sin won't even have half of that sorc's dps.

 

Edit: https://i.imgur.com/v3Dlb5c.jpg - Jugg was tunneled for 650k damage here

 

https://i.imgur.com/Pp4UZmn.jpg - Sorc took 450k (everyone else took 350-400k damage) and still did incredible damage. I can post more of these too btw. Sorc, even when tunneled, does incredible damage this expansion.

Taking 450k is nothing this expansion. That's not being tunneled. If this was 5.x, you'd have a point. This is just more misinformation sadly. Desperately trying to shift the narrative away from ops and sins.

Taking 450k is nothing this expansion. That's not being tunneled. If this was 5.x, you'd have a point. This is just more misinformation sadly. Desperately trying to shift the narrative away from ops and sins.

How am I trying to shift the narrative desperately when I already said they should nerf sins. You’re such a questionable individual. Whatever friend.

You can all hate on Sins all you want, but just wait until you see some of the top players on Sniper, Operative and Sorc. It's scary.

You've made several statements just like that one. They all boil down to "yeah, yeah, yeah sins, BUT LOOK AT THESE OTHER OP CLASSES OMG." How is that not desperately trying to change the narrative? Seems pretty obvious to me. I know you didn't make this thread, but its title is also a blatant attempt to do it.

I 100% support Sins being nerfed if it means people will open their eyes and realize that there are much better specs out there that deserve attention.

Here and elsewhere you've basically admitted that your supposed desire for sin nerfs is not really sincere, but is just a sad attempt to prove a (wrong) point to people.

You've made several statements just like that one. They all boil down to "yeah, yeah, yeah sins, BUT LOOK AT THESE OTHER OP CLASSES OMG." How is that not desperately trying to change the narrative? Seems pretty obvious to me. I know you didn't make this thread, but its title is also a blatant attempt to do it.

 

 

 

Here and elsewhere you've basically admitted that your supposed desire for sin nerfs is not really sincere, but is just a sad attempt to prove a (wrong) point to people.

So now my opinion that they should nerf sins isn’t genuine enough for you? Lmao.

Edit: This is like the most damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario I've ever seen. If I offer constructive feedback on how to counter sins until the upcoming balance changes, I get called out for defending an OP class, as seen here: https://i.imgur.com/IGtZiqk.png

If I reconsider my position due to the public's feedback and say, "maybe you guys are right, Bioware, go ahead and nerf sin's opener" I get called out for not being genuine enough and ironically asking for nerfs.

I feel like I'm being tried as a witch in Salem in the 1690s. If I swim, I must be a witch! If I drown, I die, but at least I wasn't a witch! Gotta love the PvP forums.

Just to remember:

high skill floor doesnt justify broken numbers.

So now my opinion that they should nerf sins isn’t genuine enough for you? Lmao.

I 100% support Sins being nerfed if it means people will open their eyes and realize that there are much better specs out there that deserve attention.

Someone who wants something nerfed sincerely says "I think x needs to be nerfed because it's overpowered, etc etc," Not "I think x needs to be nerfed so that people will stop ************ about it and realize that other classes were better all along." That's what you've been saying in plain English. It's not like I'm putting words in your mouth or trying to read your mind, I'm directly quoting you.

So now my opinion that they should nerf sins isn’t genuine enough for you? Lmao.

 

Edit: This is like the most damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario I've ever seen. If I offer constructive feedback on how to counter sins until the upcoming balance changes, I get called out for defending an OP class, as seen here: https://i.imgur.com/IGtZiqk.png

 

If I reconsider my position due to the public's feedback and say, "maybe you guys are right, Bioware, go ahead and nerf sin's opener" I get called out for not being genuine enough and ironically asking for nerfs.

 

I feel like I'm being tried as a witch in Salem in the 1690s. If I swim, I must be a witch! If I drown, I die, but at least I wasn't a witch! Gotta love the PvP forums.

Yep, it’s unfair. Trying to change your opinion on these forums often leads to straw men attacking you because they just want to argue or troll you, God for bid you change your opinion.

Even I’ve started to change mine a little bit since the opener you posted. Because it is getting easier to counter if you have a brain. And it will make little difference to me on my Sin because I rarely get the whole opener off unless the person is bad or they have zero DCDs available.

I still don’t think it needs nerfing because you can counter it. But if it makes all the QQ about sins go away and the FOTM noobs move to another class, then why not. It’s not going to hurt me that much.

The only nerf needed in my opinion is the tactical swapping and if they nerf the opener and leave the tactical swapping in, then it will make little to no difference to people saying Sins are OP.

The problem as I see it is those QQing don’t even understand the problems because they don’t play a Sin or an Operative for that matter. All they see is the large amount of dps and the ability to mitigate more than they should be able to. They don’t realise that a bunch of it is caused by the tactical swapping.

Let them nerf the opener, I’ll still be playing my sins with all my other classes. It’s the only way you can truely understand a class and know how to fight against them better.

Just to remember:

high skill floor doesnt justify broken numbers.

I say we nerf players and not classes.

LoL, just joking of course. But so much nerf calling over the years hasn’t taken into account player skill or class difficulty.

If you want balance, nerf all players with skill to the lowest denominator. Then we can just face roll the keyboard and hope for the best

Someone who wants something nerfed sincerely says "I think x needs to be nerfed because it's overpowered, etc etc," Not "I think x needs to be nerfed so that people will stop ************ about it and realize that other classes were better all along." That's what you've been saying in plain English. It's not like I'm putting words in your mouth or trying to read your mind, I'm directly quoting you.

Interesting that you've chosen the quotes you did about me which were almost 2 weeks ago instead of my most recent comments stating exactly what you ask. In this exact thread, I said "I'm saying this as a Sin, the burst from Sin's opener should be nerfed, that's fair." Yes, I start discussing other classes after that, but as Prum said earlier in this thread, one class being too strong doesn't justify another class being too strong. So my talking about classes other than sin does not detract from my statement saying that their opener should be nerfed.

Surely I'm allowed to change my stance between a week or two ago and now? You honestly come off as the type of person who just likes to argue for the sake of argument. First my stance is clearly biased because I'm a sin player (logic which you yourself then counter by stating that you wish to remain anonymous so that your point isn't detracted from, something which you've been doing to me for weeks now). Then when I change my stance, it's now not genuine enough for you, based on a quote that you dug up from the past when I've clearly made a more recent quote stating that sins opener should be nerfed. I'm not sure what your problem is with me specifically but your constant need to try to discredit me in every thread I end up in is pretty tiring.

Interesting that you've chosen the quotes you did about me which were almost 2 weeks ago instead of my most recent comments stating exactly what you ask.

I 100% support Sins being nerfed if it means people will open their eyes and realize that there are much better specs out there that deserve attention.

Where are you getting weeks from? This quote is from yesterday, post #31 of this thread...so it's clearly how you still feel, unless you changed your mind completely in a matter of hours?

Surely I'm allowed to change my stance between a week or two ago and now?

Of course you are. But given your comments, both in this thread and elsewhere, you've made it clear that you don't think sins actually need nerfs, you just supposedly want it to happen to prove a point. We've been through this. And remember, I'm still reserving judgment on whether sins need nerfs, so I don't care whether you think they should be or not. But I do think it's ******** when you argue in bad faith to try to prove a stupid point.

I'm not sure what your problem is with me specifically but your constant need to try to discredit me in every thread I end up in is pretty tiring.

I have no personal problem with you. However, I do think it's interesting that some players want what they say to be taken as gospel even when there are serious flaws in their reasoning. When you say things that are wrong, or stupid, or I happen to take issue with something you say for any other reason, of course I'm going to point that out. Why shouldn't I? Vigorous argument is often the best way to get to the truth, as long as both parties are arguing in good faith. Just because you're a decent player and you make guides for people doesn't make you immune to criticism.

snip

When have I ever stated that my opinion should be taken as gospel, ever, anywhere? My opinion is just that, my opinion. And people are allowed to have differing opinions, however for whatever reason, you take every opportunity that you can to try to specifically discredit me to make my opinion seem of lesser value than others. I've never tried to insinuate that because I write guides that I'm more knowledgeable about things that are purely opinion-based, such as the state of the meta. I'm a regular player just like everyone else. Whether it be by you saying that my opinion is biased, stating that I'm arguing in bad faith, or providing misinformation, you are doing all that you can do try to diminish my opinion specifically, for some odd reason. In this very thread you first state that my opinion is of little value because it's biased due to me playing Assassin and then a few posts later admit that you didn't even watch the full podcast, meaning that you don't even know what I said fully before coming to that conclusion. You want to talk about arguing in bad faith, yet you are dismissing what I say based on your own personal biases against me without even hearing my words first. So like I said, it's pretty tiring. Continue on in your crusade to bismirch my character, good luck and have fun friend.

When have I ever stated that my opinion should be taken as gospel, ever, anywhere?

I never said you stated it. It's simply my impression.

Whether it be by you saying that my opinion is biased, stating that I'm arguing in bad faith, or providing misinformation, you are doing all that you can do try to diminish my opinion specifically, for some odd reason. In this very thread you first state that my opinion is of little value because it's biased due to me playing Assassin and then a few posts later admit that you didn't even watch the full podcast, meaning that you don't even know what I said fully before coming to that conclusion.

All I said was that it's hardly surprising that a sin main and an op main didn't consider their mains to be the two highest performing classes right now. And yes, I freely admitted that I didn't watch the whole podcast (not a valuable use of my time when I know 2 of the 4 participants are not to be taken at all seriously-hint, not talking about you or snave), and further admitted that maybe that assertion was unfair of me as a result. I doubt my original statement was wrong though.

You want to talk about arguing in bad faith, yet you are dismissing what I say based on your own personal biases against me without even hearing my words first. So like I said, it's pretty tiring. Continue on in your crusade to bismirch my character, good luck and have fun friend.

I have no personal biases against you, nor am I on a crusade to besmirch* your character. You have argued in bad faith in favor of sin nerfs up until yesterday afternoon. Your own words doom you there I'm afraid.

Now starts the 10 extra pages of off topic discussions which is the fate of every thread about either a suggesting a class being nerfed, team ranked, solo ranked, x is op, or x is weak.

I doubt it will go that far. Kre'a seems far more reasonable to me than Zurules.

By the way, anyone notice this?

Well for example, I was about to gear up my VG after hearing positive things about them... then I realized it was just propaganda to crutch the argument against nerfing sins. They still have the same problems as always, great DPS, terrible survivability. So I'm glad I waited. And the only reason I waited was because I was able to store those pieces another character.

That's why I think it's important to call people out when they spout ******** on the forums.

Don't use my comment in your silly little debate lol.

I appreciate Krea. If every reviewer/guide maker had to run a strict fact check before putting out their video/guide, we'd have even less guides than we currently do (which is pretty much none). I very much appreciate people who go to the extra effort to help communicate things. And I certainly didn't take anything he said as gospel. I understand that when people have an opinion, they don't always precede it with: "I think..."

Don't use my comment in your silly little debate lol.

 

I appreciate Krea. If every reviewer/guide maker had to run a strict fact check before putting out their video/guide, we'd have even less guides than we currently do (which is pretty much none). I very much appreciate people who go to the extra effort to help communicate things. And I certainly didn't take anything he said as gospel. I understand that when people have an opinion, they don't always precede it with: "I think..."

He was the one who was pumping PTs to defend sins, so it's relevant I'm afraid. How would you have known it was wrong if not for myself and others questioning it?

I only use that to counter the notion that some people have "why argue on the forums, just let people have opinions." If you just let opinions stand unopposed, then people can often get wrong impressions. It's nearly always a good thing to argue against what you think is wrong, especially on a public forum when that's kind of the point lol.

And I never said you couldn't appreciate Kre'a, by all means do. I've also never criticized any of his guides. Ironically though, your attitude towards him here, and defense of him, actually makes it all the more necessary to challenge him when he's wrong.

I'm not sure what your problem is with me specifically but your constant need to try to discredit me in every thread I end up in is pretty tiring.

For some reason some people on the forums take discussions about SWTOR personally and then feel a need to stalk you around the forums picking fights. Hey, at least be glad he doesn't report you for hurting his feelings.