Ideal form for a Jedi is to achiev a droid mindset and break the chains of emotions, to always act acoording to logic, reason and rationality ( although SW lore is based on contradiction, who rational would serve, whats worse serve democracy, madness )

 

I tried that growing up, it didn't work. Oh, and it was a living hell too. A droid mindset may be all well and good for a fictional order of Jedi but it's not good for real life people.

 

I can say that for 3/4 of my 25 year life I did exactly that and no, it did not work. Emotions are not chains. It is possible to feel them; experience, and enjoy them without them getting out of control.

 

And if you "break the chain of emotions" then you have no drive or passion to help someone in need or in suffering. You don't feel the outrage or anger at injustice so you don't move to fix the injustice. You see suffering and not feel pain so you don't move to alleviate suffering.

I'm sorry to the fictional Jedi but I cannot be compassion-less, love-less, cold and generally heartless by being robotic / illogical / having no emotions. I am driven by them; they are the things which motivate me to act. Does that mean I should let them go out of control? NO.

 

That can go for everyone. Feeling something is part of being human. Feeling something is one thing. Acting on it and how one acts on it is another matter entirely. I do agree that emotions that get out of control can be damaging. But it is possible to feel something strongly and yet still act rationally.

 

Feeling compassion does not force you to act irrationally. The Jedi, if they believe that compassion makes people act irrationally, are wrong. People control their actions. Emotions do not control a person or force them to do anything.

 

A person chooses to act a certain way. Simply feeling an emotion doesn't hijack your brain and make you do something irrational. The person feels compassion, or anything, and then they make the choice to act a certain way.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

I choose love, compassion, care and kindess and so does my character

 

Because I know that simply feeling those or having those does not automatically force me to act irrationally because I know that I and I alone control my actions. I can choose to act irrationally because of them OR I can choose to experience them and feel them but still act in a safe and smart matter.

 

Because if I don't have compassion, care, love, and kindness then I have no will or drive to help those who are in pain or sorrow. Sorry to the Jedi but my emotions are what make me strong.

 

My Strength Flows from Heart and My Soul. But I can still use my mind and decide how to act.

 

Thank you everyone for your input

 

- */\*

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

The statement the master gives is clearly not limited to the situation at hand - he considers pity categorically inappropriate for a Jedi.

 

It's obviously not that clear. Saying that a Jedi can never have pity ever is taking what he said too literally and applying it too broadly. Syo Bakarn and Jaric Kaeden both say that compassion is essential for a good Jedi at other times and they are both Jedi Council Members. If they also believed that Jedi can't have pity, they can't both be true.

Edited February 3, 2013 by OldVengeance

<moved to next page> Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

This. I think TOR decided to go with a very annoying interpretation, because they said "If we make the Sith all about Passion, we can have Jedi's be the total opposite"

 

And the Jedi order isn't against emotion. It teaches controlling them, thus the rules they have, because a force user who can't control their emotions is a dangerous individual. More dangerous than a pissed off smuggler/bounty hunter with a blaster.

 

Of course that's a little hard to convey in a game where they want to make every player equal. It's the difference between the Star Wars storyline and making Star Wars a game.

 

Orgus just told my character that ALL attachments are bad. That ALL emotion and passion ALWAYS destroys a person and a Jedi should NOT have any. I've already refuted that in my earlier posts and explained why it's bad to deny emotions entirely and completley ignore and push them away.

 

Attachments: Yes, there is sorrow at the end. BUT Orgus is ignoring everything that comes before the end. All of the goodness and joy which can come from attachments to friends and family and loved ones. Yes, to not have any attachments means to avoid the pain when one ends. BUT to deny attachment means missing out on all of the joyful times and goodness that they can bring. It also means being so very alone; not getting attached to means being saved the pain. But it also means missing out on the positives as well.

 

That would mean that the Jedi would not be moved to help anyone. It would be denying an integral part of who they are.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

That Orgus Din fellow just dissed on passion and emotion and said they were always bad. and how attachment always leads to suffering. So we have one Jedi master saying that and we have other Lore which contradicts Orgus Din on that point.

 

Namely this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

 

And both Obi-won and Yoda show emotion in the new Star Wars Trilogy. Obi-won showed care and concern for Luke in A New Hope. And in Return of the Jedi, was Luke really an emotionless robot? Did he not have ANY sort of attachment to his friends?

 

??????

That Orgus Din fellow just dissed on passion and emotion and said they were always bad. and how attachment always leads to suffering. So we have one Jedi master saying that and we have other Lore which contradicts Orgus Din on that point.

 

Namely this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

 

And both Obi-won and Yoda show emotion in the new Star Wars Trilogy. Obi-won showed care and concern for Luke in A New Hope. And in Return of the Jedi, was Luke really an emotionless robot? Did he not have ANY sort of attachment to his friends?

 

??????

 

Well, Luke was the one to bring balance to the force.

 

In the movie sense, I think Jedi know there is emotions, they know they have them, they know they need to keep them under control, which is harder to do when you start making serious attachments and falling in love, and I think they all know they make attachments or else they wouldn't have their friends.

 

The game world of TOR takes it to the extreme, because it can, and because it wants to be the extreme other side of the Sith. Start having Jedi who act like Luke, and everyone will want to be Jedi and go "the Empire who?"

Well, Luke was the one to bring balance to the force.

 

In the movie sense, I think Jedi know there is emotions, they know they have them, they know they need to keep them under control, which is harder to do when you start making serious attachments and falling in love, and I think they all know they make attachments or else they wouldn't have their friends.

 

The game world of TOR takes it to the extreme, because it can, and because it wants to be the extreme other side of the Sith. Start having Jedi who act like Luke, and everyone will want to be Jedi and go "the Empire who?"

 

That's a good point. It still doesn't settle with me well, as I explained in my earlier posts (about feeling emotions but still being able to act and being in control of one's actions.) In summary here:

 

"Feeling compassion does not force you to act irrationally. The Jedi, if they believe that compassion makes people act irrationally, are wrong. People control their actions. Emotions do not control a person or force them to do anything.

 

A person chooses to act a certain way. Simply feeling an emotion doesn't hijack your brain and make you do something irrational. The person feels compassion, or anything, and then they make the choice to act a certain way."

 

I don't want to give up on this Jedi character...but I can't look into a NPCs sad eyes and be an emotionles, passionless, robot. If my character was REALLY like Orgus said I should be like then my character would not want to help anyone. He wouldn't feel one twinge of anything for anyone in need. He would just show a cold, inhuman indifference. I'm not talking about being worn out. I mean 100% all the time cold to everyone and always.

 

NO! Jedi are meant to help people. With no compassion, mercy, kindness, love, any of that there is no drive and no will to do what Jedi are supposed to do and that to help those in need.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

If my character can't show kindness or concern for someone who is in despair or pain then I'm just going to delete this character and roll another class. Because I can't turn a blind eye to those who are wounded and hurting.

 

And when Orgus said "NO EMOTIONS OR PASSIONS FOR YOU!" it sounded like he was saying to shut down my heart and be a robot. And I cannot do that; I can't play a character like that.

 

No emotion and no passion = no will and no drive. Not being human and denying part of who a person is. I've already been down that path in real life.

 

I refuse to play a character that has to be in the same state that I was for a good majority of my life. I am not going to relive those dark days through a character in this game.

 

Maybe it's not the best idea to a play a class that will always remind me of how bad it was then....

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

You don't have to be an emotionless Jedi if you don't want to be. The game is set up to play your character in various different ways should you want to. Edited February 3, 2013 by OldVengeance

You don't have to be an emotionless Jedi if you don't want to be. The game is set up to play your character in various different ways should you want to.

 

That'd upset my character's Jedi Master but oh well.

 

at him (Orgus Din)

 

also

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

That'd upset my character's Jedi Master but oh well.

 

at him (Orgus Din)

 

also

He's your master for about 7 levels or so. Don't worry about upsetting him.

This seems to me like a fairly deliberate mis-reading of what's going on in those missions. The NPCs tell you flatly that compassion is problematic for the jedi because it impairs their judgment.

 

Well, the Jedi hologram who says this has a point. If you want to ensure justice, compassion (which the hologram elaborates as sorrow for the victim and outrage at the crime) is problematic. IRL it is the same with judges and cops. They too largely have to ignore their personal feelings about the crimes they encounter.

 

The hologram doesn't say: "compassion is always problematic", it says "true justice can not be driven by emotion." I think this translates more like: "When a Jedi tries to protect justice (which happens often), he has to ignore/control his emotions."

 

I don't approve of all the Jedi teachings about emotions, but this particular part does make sense.

 

Edit: By the way, Orgus Din is also emotional from time to time. ("Blast this council meetings!" for example.) I haven't encountered the part where he said that about emotion, when was it?

Edited February 3, 2013 by Maaruin

If my character can't show kindness or concern for someone who is in despair or pain then I'm just going to delete this character and roll another class. Because I can't turn a blind eye to those who are wounded and hurting.

 

And when Orgus said "NO EMOTIONS OR PASSIONS FOR YOU!" it sounded like he was saying to shut down my heart and be a robot. And I cannot do that; I can't play a character like that.

 

No emotion and no passion = no will and no drive. Not being human and denying part of who a person is. I've already been down that path in real life.

 

I refuse to play a character that has to be in the same state that I was for a good majority of my life. I am not going to relive those dark days through a character in this game.

 

Maybe it's not the best idea to a play a class that will always remind me of how bad it was then....

 

If you're reliving those days from the game, you're looking far to into it, especially since you get plenty of emotional response choices as a Jedi.

 

And never does it say "act like a robot"

 

It really comes down to this...

 

Jedi: We're living nukes. We must control ourselves for fear of going off.

 

Sith: We're living nukes! HELL YEAH! Take what we want when we want!

 

Then your choices in game can allow you to go however you want.

He's your master for about 7 levels or so. Don't worry about upsetting him.

 

And who would want him as a master. He obviously flunked Jedi 101.

 

Not that it is his fault it was really the Bioware writers flunking Jedi 101. There is just so much stuff on Tython about Jedi lore that is horribly wrong it makes me want to stab myself in the face every time I roll a jedi character.

If you're reliving those days from the game, you're looking far to into it, especially since you get plenty of emotional response choices as a Jedi.

 

And never does it say "act like a robot"

 

It really comes down to this...

 

Jedi: We're living nukes. We must control ourselves for fear of going off.

 

Sith: We're living nukes! HELL YEAH! Take what we want when we want!

 

Then your choices in game can allow you to go however you want.

 

I misunderstood it then. I felt at the time that as a Padawan my character had to listen to his Jedi Master which is why I was like "heck no." Now I know differently. Frak* Orgus Din and his messed up teachings.

 

*A saying from "Battlestar Galactica".

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

And who would want him as a master. He obviously flunked Jedi 101.

 

Not that it is his fault it was really the Bioware writers flunking Jedi 101. There is just so much stuff on Tython about Jedi lore that is horribly wrong it makes me want to stab myself in the face every time I roll a jedi character.

 

Just make sure it's a powered down practice saber and not a legit powered up lightsaber.

 

Hm. While there is a lot of strange things going on on Tython, I wish to point out that the Jedi in the game are not really emotionless. Neither Satele Shan nor Yuon Par nor Orgus Din seem to be unaffected, distant or cold. Satele Shan is always relaxed and lets hardly anything distress her but she does show concern with those around her. Master Yuon seems to be concerned with a lot of things and Orgus Din has a relaxed attitude with some humor but he's really more like a sheriff from a western movie, not a cold character.

Hm. While there is a lot of strange things going on on Tython, I wish to point out that the Jedi in the game are not really emotionless. Neither Satele Shan nor Yuon Par nor Orgus Din seem to be unaffected, distant or cold. Satele Shan is always relaxed and lets hardly anything distress her but she does show concern with those around her. Master Yuon seems to be concerned with a lot of things and Orgus Din has a relaxed attitude with some humor but he's really more like a sheriff from a western movie, not a cold character.

 

I think the Sith have the same problem. It's why the Sith on Tatooine (I forget his name) is one of my favorites to run missions for. He basically tells you, "Yeah, Sith who play the role of psychopath...dumb."

Hm. While there is a lot of strange things going on on Tython, I wish to point out that the Jedi in the game are not really emotionless. Neither Satele Shan nor Yuon Par nor Orgus Din seem to be unaffected, distant or cold. Satele Shan is always relaxed and lets hardly anything distress her but she does show concern with those around her. Master Yuon seems to be concerned with a lot of things and Orgus Din has a relaxed attitude with some humor but he's really more like a sheriff from a western movie, not a cold character.

 

You're right. I just realized why Orgus Din sounded bitter about all of that...because his former Padawan was killed. So yes, he'd still be hurting from that.

 

*8 Trigrams 64 Facepalms* I just realized that now; I should've seen it earlier. Cause he sounded mad when he told me what he told me. Orgus Din sounded the way he did because of what happened to his former Padawan.

 

* (Based on the "8 Trigrams 64 Palms* move from "Naruto".)

As I said before. Yes, when an attachment is severed (by death or just time going on) it can be excruciating. But denying attachments to avoid the bad would mean missing out on all of the good, happiness, and joy as well.

 

I'll have my character do a cross-universe jump to the Final Fantasy world, grab a Phoenix Down, bring it back, and ressurect Orgus Din's former Padawan.

 

 

Random chocobo pic:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Chocobo.png/250px-Chocobo.png

Edited February 3, 2013 by Phoenixbowman

As I said before. Yes, when an attachment is severed (by death or just time going on) it can be excruciating. But denying attachments to avoid the bad would mean missing out on all of the good, happiness, and joy as well.

 

I'll have my character do a cross-universe jump to the Final Fantasy world, grab a Phoenix Down, bring it back, and ressurect Orgus Din's former Padawan.

 

 

Random chocobo pic:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Chocobo.png/250px-Chocobo.png

 

I think they realize that. But in Star Wars, being able to use the Force, makes one THAT powerful. Even if the Jedi Order allowed love and marriage (and the question is, why not just quit the order), Anakin went ballistic on the idea that Padme was going to die and he needed a way to save her (even if it was a self-fullfilling prophecy) and was willing to do a lot of harm to get it.

 

In the movies (and single player games) they're able to show it better than in a MMO setting where you need to be cut down in power because of multiple players.

KotOR2 presented the Jedi philosophy in a negative light because the writers hated the strict black and white morality ever so present in the Star Wars, so they had to take a crap on the squeeky clean pure light side and toned down the rawwr I am dark must kill everything rawrr dark side to make both sides more morally abstract Edited February 4, 2013 by RendValor

KotOR2 presented the Jedi philosophy in a negative light because the writers hated the strict black and white morality ever so present in the Star Wars, so they had to take a crap on the squeeky clean pure light side and toned down the rawwr I am dark must kill everything rawrr dark side to make both sides more morally abstract

 

So, it's because they were writing for something they hated and decided to screw it all up?