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After plugging some gear into Ask Mr Robot for sorc dps I found the following, I realize classes are different, warrior gets stuck with a lot of power and snipers a lot of endurance. But, full columi, class matrix cube, class buffs, stim, and 6% from the class tree puts you just shy of 1800. So perhaps 1800 wasn't quite as conservative as I was originally thinking, still easily achievable though if if you spend a week or two doing lower tier stuff before stepping into these ops.

 

1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.

 

2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.

 

3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.

 

4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.

 

Throw in a few augments, get 35 to 50 BH comms (for sorc example, pick up the BH implant or boots), maybe 120 daily comms for a rakata implant (probably better off just saving up for 300 honestly though), maybe run Lost Island for the rakata chest, get yourself some modifiable belt and bracers, and you are well past this mark.

 

I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.

 

I'm seeing a lot of comments about 1800 being rakata+, I'm just not seeing this. For sorc (again, I realize each class is different), you can hit over 1900 with full rakata, stim and class buff. This doesn't even include augmenting one single piece of gear. WIth my least geared 50, my juggernaut, I have a mix of BH/rakata (power heavy) and I am at 2000+ strength (a few pieces are augmented).

 

Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.

 

We could easily carry a couple of under geared people through this as most of us are over geared for SM EC/TFB. Maybe we are setting our standards a little high. I don't want to be a snob or elitist about it, but people should be running at least SM EV/KP and some HM EV/KP. Yeah, I know EC and TFB drop rakata, but I think that was more intended to fill in the gaps from stuff you didn't get from HM EV/KP.

 

TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.

 

Also just FYI, here's a quick columi build I made on ask mr robot, I even included a stim yet it sit's below 1700 despite being in full columi and ready for the content, full columi without the stim is around 1500 strength not the 1800 you picked out of your head.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/0335bc98-bb44-45c9-9014-5721e8ae4079

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Assuming a finite stat pool, you face a zero sum situation with respect to the three secondary defensive statistics. Thus, you stack defense at the expense of stacking either shield or absorb.

 

The problem with this in the vanguard class is that you waste talents in your skill tree that buff your shield and absorb by adding a percentage of the total. Here are the talents:

 

Shield Cycler: 2% bonus to shield chance

Ceramic Plating: 4% bonus to absorb

Power Screen: 8% bonus to absorb when fully stacked

Counterattack: 6% bonus to shield chance

 

Having a low shield chance or absorb means having lower bonuses. This is undeniable regardless of what you may have experienced or what healers may have told you.

I don't think those talents work the way you think they do. They add to your character sheet number, they don't multiply the stats you get from gear.

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1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.

 

2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.

 

3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.

 

4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.

 

 

 

I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.

 

 

 

Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.

 

 

 

TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.

 

Also just FYI, here's a quick columi build I made on ask mr robot, I even included a stim yet it sit's below 1700 despite being in full columi and ready for the content, full columi without the stim is around 1500 strength not the 1800 you picked out of your head.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/0335bc98-bb44-45c9-9014-5721e8ae4079

 

I don't see how your main stat can be so low while stacking power, my DPS PT has 2450 aim and 700 power, so even if I dropped the aim augs on each of my pieces of gear and put power in to push me towards 900-1000 power I would only drop to 2200 aim or so, and i'm in mostly BH, so overgeared for the 1800 Main Stat sure, but i'm assuming with your DG/campaign pieces that you aren't in a Columi/Rakata mix anymore.

 

My buddies Maurader is in Campaign/Rakata and he has 2150 Str and 1000 power, so either i'm missing something or your stats are off by what your gear is at.

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Yeah, my Sentinel isn't that well geared and she is pulling 2149 with buff and stim and 1919 without.

 

I also have

Power: 753

Crit: 309

Surge: 285

accuracy: 285

 

So I went more balanced. Mainly bh and campaign, but have some 63 armor and hilt that I bought. Yeah she cheated on gear, but I have been in everything, but usually I am on my main healer and not on my fun dps. However, I want to have her ready for any content should they have enough healers and not enough dps.

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1/ Matrix cubes suck compared to PvE & PvP endgame relics, any clever person wouldn't be stacking a mainstat in any of their relics.

Yes, I realize the matrix cube is not bis. For dps bis is dreadguard proc and dreadguard power clicky (PvP relic is longer bis). That's also 600 daily comms, or roughly 5 mil credits. If you have the availability of those relics and not enough time or money to prioritize your stats better, you probably aren't planning on running ops anyway. I was just using the matrix cube as example how easy decent enough gear can be obtained.

 

 

2/ You should never take into account the person is fully buffed and stimmed before asking for a inv. I usually pop my stim and buff in the instance to make sure they aren't wasted.

Why? Because (104+x)(0.05))+(x) takes to much time? Or saying "Hey, I have 1650/1700 unbuffed, can I go?". What does it matter either way how one chooses to come to a final value?

 

 

3/ 6-9% skill tree buff is not available for all classes.

True

 

 

4/ You still fail to forget people who stack secondary stats rather than main, my sent who's 2/5 dread guard rest campaign sits at around 1900 strength and around 1000 power, it I removed the 12 might augments and replaced them with power I'd only have 1700 strength but 1200 power. By your main stat rule that would be too weak despite my character being far over-geared for a story mode.

Hmm... like I said I have 2000+ on a rakata/BH juggernaut without being fully augmented (buffed of course) and I have been choosing marauder gear from the vendor to swap the modifications. So your telling me that I am an entire tier below you in gear and not fully augmented and have higher strength than you? What's your endurance at?

 

 

I am accounting for augments and earpiece, my dreadguard/campaign sent is only over your 1800 rule because I stack strength augments so I don't have to stack extra crit in my gear where power could go. Most my gear is optimized for power rather than mainstat.

Hmm, not the way I would go, but to each their own I guess. I've had this power vs. mainstat debate before, don't really feel like getting into it here, but basically you are looking at 0.23 (mainstat) vs 0.24 (power) bonus difference and mainstat gives a crit bonus on a separate diminishing return. But I digress, not trying to derail my own thread. We will just call it even. I do agree with power>crit rate after dr's start to hit in most cases though, that's fairly obvious.

 

 

Because you're not taking account on secondary stat optimizations, plus you're adding a stim on top before you enter the op, without a stim your sorc would only be touching 1800 in rakata which most rakata have the main stat heavy 25a mods in. If you're asking people through chat unless they just come from an op and still have a stim running then they are not going to pop one just to check their main stat.

Maybe sorc was a bad example then I guess. Not going to spend the time doing it for another class when I know just about every class can break 1900 with a stim and rakata/BH mix.

 

 

TFB is balanced for players in columi 136 rated gear, by requesting people have at least 1800 main stat all you are doing is bringing overgeared players for an easy ride.

Yet the last boss drops gear 2 tiers higher. I know it's doable, but has it officially been stated as the case? EV HM is rated for columi too correct? Is EV HM and TFB SM the same difficulty? And just out of curiosity, have you personally ever ran TFB SM with a full group wearing nothing higher than columi?

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I just fiddled with some AMR profiles, and a Commando in stock Columi without a stim has 1650 aim.

 

If you're trying to SM EC/SM TfB I would say that 1800 main stat is a fair thing to ask for. Those operations were tuned to Columi, but as a pug it is safer to bring a bit of extra gear to the table. Such a player (1800 main stat) is likely to be Columi with some Black Hole and some Rakata. They'll have some experience and are probably good enough to be an asset rather than a drag.

Edited by Khevar
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Hmm... like I said I have 2000+ on a rakata/BH juggernaut without being fully augmented (buffed of course) and I have been choosing marauder gear from the vendor to swap the modifications. So your telling me that I am an entire tier below you in gear and not fully augmented and have higher strength than you? What's your endurance at?

 

Like I said, I get rid of the main stat heavy "A" mods for pure power/crit, which on a sentinel is actually something like 0.18 strength vs 0.23 power to bonus damage because there's no 9% skill tree buff for all classes.

 

Here's my current gear give or take a few pieces, I'm currently making way for hazmat pieces so crit is lower then I would usually aim for:

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/7207c5e3-4f71-417d-aa5d-422322ef400f

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This is my marauder alts gear right now, and I've also cleared every boss in the game (except EC NiM kephess) on my main. Do you think he's not geared enough for SM ops? How about after I get the 2 might hilt 27's I'm planning to get crafted for him, which would still put him under 1800 strength? Edited by steave
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1800 is most def not too much to ask for. My powertech in full campaign has 1940 aim as a tank. Dps gear is all DG and i have 2430 aim and 950 power.

 

For sm 1800 is more than enough. I have a sorc who hit 50 and i've played maybe 5 or 6 hours on since has 1900 willpower. I'd perfer to bring people who over gear for 2 reasons. 1 i dont care much for teaching pugs fights. 2 make the run as quick as possible.

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1800 is most def not too much to ask for. My powertech in full campaign has 1940 aim as a tank. Dps gear is all DG and i have 2430 aim and 950 power.

 

For sm 1800 is more than enough. I have a sorc who hit 50 and i've played maybe 5 or 6 hours on since has 1900 willpower. I'd perfer to bring people who over gear for 2 reasons. 1 i dont care much for teaching pugs fights. 2 make the run as quick as possible.

 

You mention 1 class that has a 9% main stat boost and one that has a 6% one, both of which are probably using main stat augments instead of power. That's equivalent to 240-245 main stat from the augments alone after accounting for sorc buff and the talent.

My goal build for my marauder (optimized 61's, aka what I can get by mod swapping BH gear and crafting hilts anr armorings for belt+bracer) still only has 1880 strength when buffed.

Bonus damage/healing would be a better metric since it will take both main stat and power into account, but that doesn't tell the whole story either.

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I ran Nightmare EV with a sniper with only 1500 cunning. It is more about player skill than stats when it comes to PuG raids. As long as they have experience with the raid and at least have columi gear, they can hold their own in anything below HM Denova. Full Rakata back in the day is actually comparable to today's columi with augment slots, and most players have at least a black hole piece by the time they start their first raid. Edited by bbare
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If its EV SM or an EC SM comms run, all I want to see is that you are in at least Tionese and level 50 gear. You get free Tionese and Recruit gear now so you might as well pick that up. I just dont want to see you with greens or level 40 gear or anything like that, whether its a HM, Lost Island or an Ops. Considering that this takes no effort on the players part, this is really all I care about and if the player hasn't gotten this stuff yet, its only helping them by making them get this stuff.

 

Honestly, when I was a fresh 50 and starting to raid, better geared 50s were helping to carry me so its no big deal to pay it forward.

 

Also, my guild is heavy in tanks and healers so we tend to just pug the DPS as needed and our core DPSers tend to be very good so its no big deal to carry someone a little. We're not really a hardcore raiding guild so its nice to leave a good impression on people that you're a friendly guild.

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The OP is talking about SM EC and SM TfB, a raid leader plugging in a few PUGs has the right to ask whatever they want in the minimum they will require out of a pug to join their group. So 1800 mainstat isn’t too much to ask if that is what the raid leader and his/her regular group members are comfortable with out of a PUG. That is not saying a skilled person could not do it with a lot less stats, that is not saying your build or gear is wrong, it is just saying that is what the raid leader and his/her group wants. I have seen guilds wanting full dreadguard to run HMEC, that isn’t needed either, but I didn’t insult them or throw a fit over it. As a matter of fact I did not want to run with them because I knew they just wanted a pug the fill a hole and did not want and had no intention of sharing in the gear. So even though I would have passed on gear anyways I was happy not to go. Raid leader’s job isn’t to make PUGs happy or carry them through the operation, their job is to get a group together that has the best chance to clear the instance. Sometimes that even means leaving guildmates and friends out, so you can see why they are not overly worried about hurting a strangers feelings.

 

For some it would be really great is we had a report card attached to our toons, then we would not be sold short because we did not meet someone’s made up criteria for raids, but then for others that report card would be a death sentence. As it is now, all there is to judge pugs by is an artificial criteria that while important, does not say anything of skill and/or knowledge.

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The OP is talking about SM EC and SM TfB, a raid leader plugging in a few PUGs has the right to ask whatever they want in the minimum they will require out of a pug to join their group. So 1800 mainstat isn’t too much to ask if that is what the raid leader and his/her regular group members are comfortable with out of a PUG. That is not saying a skilled person could not do it with a lot less stats,

 

Stopped reading about there. The whole point of this thread is to ask if the requirement is reasonable, not to ask if they have the right to ask for it. Ofcourse the raid leader has final say on the requirements, but are they rasonable? That's what's being discussed here.

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Stopped reading about there. The whole point of this thread is to ask if the requirement is reasonable, not to ask if they have the right to ask for it. Ofcourse the raid leader has final say on the requirements, but are they rasonable? That's what's being discussed here.

If that is what the raidleader and group is comfortable with, the yes it is reasonable. Asked and answered in my post above, but you stopped reading. :p

 

There is no right answer unless you know the players skill and usually if you know their skill they are not a pug, but someone you invited.

Edited by mikebevo
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This is my marauder alts gear right now, and I've also cleared every boss in the game (except EC NiM kephess) on my main. Do you think he's not geared enough for SM ops? How about after I get the 2 might hilt 27's I'm planning to get crafted for him, which would still put him under 1800 strength?

I would hazard a guess that you're probably a skilled player who is very familiar with the fights. This is based on your saying that you've progressed mostly through NM EC (and everything else). Also, I'm pretty sure the others in your raid group probably have better gear than you do.

 

Anyway, a very skilled player doesn't need ideal BiS. However, when you're filling a pug slot, with an unknown variable of how good someone is, it's safer to err on the side of caution.

 

My own raid group is mostly Dread Guard and we're still progressing on NM EC. The only way we'd bring someone geared like yourself is if someone knew the player personally and was willing to vouch for their skill.

 

Edit: I also fiddled more with AMR profiles for Marauders/Sentinels. Their gearing seems weird to me. Stock Columi gear on a Marauder has vastly less main stat than other classes.

Edited by Khevar
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I would hazard a guess that you're probably a skilled player who is very familiar with the fights. This is based on your saying that you've progressed mostly through NM EC (and everything else). Also, I'm pretty sure the others in your raid group probably have better gear than you do.

 

Anyway, a very skilled player doesn't need ideal BiS. However, when you're filling a pug slot, with an unknown variable of how good someone is, it's safer to err on the side of caution.

 

My own raid group is mostly Dread Guard and we're still progressing on NM EC. The only way we'd bring someone geared like yourself is if someone knew the player personally and was willing to vouch for their skill.

 

Edit: I also fiddled more with AMR profiles for Marauders/Sentinels. Their gearing seems weird to me. Stock Columi gear on a Marauder has vastly less main stat than other classes.

 

You misunderstand, I don't bring that char to serious raids - as mentioned, that's my alt. My main is a powertech with BiS gear for both tanking and dps. I simply mention it to point out the absurdity of someone geared in full rakata-campaign (including the hilts, when I get around to crafting those - as mentioned that char would still be below the limit with 2 might 27 hilts) and augmented with way more experience than needed to clear it would be denied based on that arbitrary cut off.

That char definitely has a lot of work left to do on it, both when it comes to mod level (for hilts and armorings in bracers+belt) and optimization - but it's much more than is needed for a SM.

Edited by steave
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This is my marauder alts gear right now, and I've also cleared every boss in the game (except EC NiM kephess) on my main. Do you think he's not geared enough for SM ops? How about after I get the 2 might hilt 27's I'm planning to get crafted for him, which would still put him under 1800 strength?

 

With some stat optimization you would be just fine on the 1800, like the 104% accuracy should be dropped down in favor of a different stat, better than pre-columi hilts, moddable belt and bracers rather than the DG pieces, also the focus on power doesn't look like it is helping your wpn dmg, but that could be because of the hilts as i'm thinking you aren't using tank hilts from pre-columi gear.

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You misunderstand, I don't bring that char to serious raids - as mentioned, that's my alt. My main is a powertech with BiS gear for both tanking and dps. I simply mention it to point out the absurdity of someone geared in full rakata-campaign (including the hilts, when I get around to crafting those - as mentioned that char would still be below the limit with 2 might 27 hilts) and augmented with way more experience than needed to clear it would be denied based on that arbitrary cut off.

That char definitely has a lot of work left to do on it, both when it comes to mod level (for hilts and armorings in bracers+belt) and optimization - but it's much more than is needed for a SM.

Ahhh you're right, I misread your original post.

 

Incidentally, if one is trying to "gate" by main stat, the JW/SW seems to get the short end of the stick.

 

A stock Columi Commando has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Gunslinger has > 1700 main stat.

A stock Columi Sage has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Sentinel has > 1500 main stat.

 

Then for poops n giggles I put a Campaign geared Marauder together: AMR

 

I didn't spend much time optimizing it, I just picked all the high-strength pieces and swapped any lettered mods. But this BH/Campaign build only has 1687 strength. Weird.

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but it's much more than is needed for a SM.
No one is disagreeing with that, but no matter what arbitrary number you use it is going to leave out players more than capable of pulling off the content. At the same time, no matter what number you choice you are going to pull some players that will not be able to pull off the content. Personally 1800 seems high to me, but I am using that number while thinking about plugging someone in my group or into my guild.

 

Personally I would look at if they meet the minimum requirement for the ops and then look to see if they have worked at gear to make it better, do they have proper implant, ear, relics and do they have augments (and the proper ones for their class). If it appears that they work at it and are not just trying to get carried to gear, then I am more than willing for them to come. So going by your build on your alt, compared to my alt and considering my group, I would be more than willing to take you on anything up to HM EC, provided you took the offhand at the tanks and went back to fleet to get saber and put it in you mainhand). Your stats are very comparable to my alt and I had no problems with HM EC. We just have a difference of opinion on stacking main or power.

Edited by mikebevo
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You misunderstand, I don't bring that char to serious raids - as mentioned, that's my alt. My main is a powertech with BiS gear for both tanking and dps. I simply mention it to point out the absurdity of someone geared in full rakata-campaign (including the hilts, when I get around to crafting those - as mentioned that char would still be below the limit with 2 might 27 hilts) and augmented with way more experience than needed to clear it would be denied based on that arbitrary cut off.

That char definitely has a lot of work left to do on it, both when it comes to mod level (for hilts and armorings in bracers+belt) and optimization - but it's much more than is needed for a SM.

 

Or you can switch the Rakata stim to an exotech and be over 1800 with those hilts your speaking of... even if you didnt switch your stim you'd have 1798...

 

I'm sure if you messaged the OP when he was looking for 1800 main stat DPS and told him hey i only got 1750 but that because im a mara fully augmented in power, im sure an invite would be coming... not to mention your a mara that's probably all you'd have to say.

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With some stat optimization you would be just fine on the 1800, like the 104% accuracy should be dropped down in favor of a different stat, better than pre-columi hilts, moddable belt and bracers rather than the DG pieces, also the focus on power doesn't look like it is helping your wpn dmg, but that could be because of the hilts as i'm thinking you aren't using tank hilts from pre-columi gear.

 

Yes of course that character isn't perfect - accuracy need to be swapped for surge, crit for power and hilts need to be upgraded - I already said that though. That's still more than enough gear to carry others rather than require carrying.

 

Ahhh you're right, I misread your original post.

 

Incidentally, if one is trying to "gate" by main stat, the JW/SW seems to get the short end of the stick.

 

A stock Columi Commando has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Gunslinger has > 1700 main stat.

A stock Columi Sage has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Sentinel has > 1500 main stat.

 

Then for poops n giggles I put a Campaign geared Marauder together: AMR

 

I didn't spend much time optimizing it, I just picked all the high-strength pieces and swapped any lettered mods. But this BH/Campaign build only has 1687 strength. Weird.

Yeah, and sents/marauders are one of the highest DPS classes out there despite that, before even considering the bloodthirsts making everyone better so excluding them is a pretty bad idea.

 

No one is disagreeing with that, but no matter what arbitrary number you use it is going to leave out players more than capable of pulling off the content. At the same time, no matter what number you choice you are going to pull some players that will not be able to pull off the content. Personally 1800 seems high to me, but I am using that number while thinking about plugging someone in my group or into my guild.

Yeah, hence why it shouldn't be based on an arbitrary number - talk to the person and ask how they're geared, so pretty much what you yourself suggest that you'd do.

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Ahhh you're right, I misread your original post.

 

Incidentally, if one is trying to "gate" by main stat, the JW/SW seems to get the short end of the stick.

 

A stock Columi Commando has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Gunslinger has > 1700 main stat.

A stock Columi Sage has > 1650 main stat.

A stock Columi Sentinel has > 1500 main stat.

 

Then for poops n giggles I put a Campaign geared Marauder together: AMR

 

I didn't spend much time optimizing it, I just picked all the high-strength pieces and swapped any lettered mods. But this BH/Campaign build only has 1687 strength. Weird.

 

Sents/Maruaders do not have the +X% mainstat talent in the skill trees. That is a main difference.

 

Gunslinger/snipers, for example, get +9% and it's trivial to get that skill in any build

Edited by Infalliable
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Im new to the Ops and when I see a Leader canvas for what I can do(SM/Hm KP/EV), I make it clear in my whisper that ive got full Columi/ Augs etc. . Personnaly I feel it an honor to get invited with exp peeps and I dont wana waste the leaders time by not giving ur info up front. I also tell them that I dont mind dropping from group if they feel Im not up to par. A little forthought and HONESTY goes a long way with leaders and ive never been denied even when I was a fresh 50 that couldnt handle KP HM but they let me in anyway.

The raid leader is guna know real quick by specing the troups if someone is lying or not up to the task. I geuss what im sayin inregards to PUG reuirements is that its really up to the raid Boss.

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Yeah, hence why it shouldn't be based on an arbitrary number - talk to the person and ask how they're geared, so pretty much what you yourself suggest that you'd do.

So instead of an arbitrary number, you just want raid leaders to use some other arbitrary criteria? While it is a little more personal, it still suffers the same problem in that it will exclude people that could be an benefit to the group and it will include some that will have to be carried. It is just a nicer way, but slower way get to some meaningless minimum standard.

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