"than i would run 1tank 7healer ops cause dead is still dead lolz"

No, you wouldn't. Because a properly designed encounter would have the mob healing itself at a rate that would preclude you from doing that.

You see - there are tons of ways to make an encounter viable without an enrage timer.

I very specific DPS threshold (not a timer) is just one of them.

This argument has been stated and restated and continues to be a fallacy.

If your group is capable of putting out the DPS required to down the encounter (7 healers or not) then you are entitled to do so. Build the encounter to your required thresholds and there are no problems.

Assigning a random time limit to something is lazy.

Without enrage timers, people would just setup groups based around a main tank, backup tank and a healing rotation and win by attrition...no matter how long the fight took....as long as you could outheal the damage the tank was taking. Nothing epic about that.

 

I prefer the fast and furious flurry of battle needed to burn a mob down before enrage...

I would assume that if there aren't any enrage timers, then

any raid, 8 man, 16 man, 40, man.

All you need would be an awesome tank, and heals,

all the dps can be fresh fresh 50's wearing Greens,

and boss will be downed.

Would you want that?

Not true. Our group is perfectly capable of killing the mob - it is down to 5 percent health, nobody is dying and everything is stable.

 

Suddenly some arbitrary 'timer' kicks in and decides that even though we have no issues with the mob we didn't kill him in 5 minutes so we suck. That is a stupid, arbitrary and ultimately worthless distinction that does nothing to enhance the game.

So you're down to 5% and then the enrage timer kicks in? Pop some tank CDs, pop some heal CDs and kill it.

I've seen bosses killed from 20% to dead after they enrage. You have tools to counter this if you absolutely need to. Use them.

I would assume that if there aren't any enrage timers, then

any raid, 8 man, 16 man, 40, man.

All you need would be an awesome tank, and heals,

all the dps can be fresh fresh 50's wearing Greens,

and boss will be downed.

 

Would you want that?

Again - you would assume incorrectly.

There is nothing stopping the encounter from requiring specific DPS and HPS thresholds that have to be met to down the encounter. If your team doesn't match that spec then you can beat your head against the encounter all day long and never have a chance of downing it.

Enrage timers are taking crews that are beating the DPS/HPS thresholds that are set and putting them against a clock as well. And that is lazy.

So you're down to 5% and then the enrage timer kicks in? Pop some tank CDs, pop some heal CDs and kill it.

 

I've seen bosses killed from 20% to dead after they enrage. You have tools to counter this if you absolutely need to. Use them.

I haven't personally hit an enrage timer in this game - I was basing them on the OP and others in this thread. Can you overcome them if you are on your toes? Sounds like it might be possible.

However, it is still a piss poor excuse to design a timer in that changes the entire level of the encounter simply because your DPS missed a cycle.

No, you wouldn't. Because a properly designed encounter would have the mob healing itself at a rate that would preclude you from doing that.

 

You see - there are tons of ways to make an encounter viable without an enrage timer.

 

I very specific DPS threshold (not a timer) is just one of them.

 

This argument has been stated and restated and continues to be a fallacy.

 

If your group is capable of putting out the DPS required to down the encounter (7 healers or not) then you are entitled to do so. Build the encounter to your required thresholds and there are no problems.

 

Assigning a random time limit to something is lazy.

1) the timers are not random

2) so u say we need another mechanic that requires X dps to outdeal the selfhealing... wouldnt that be just the same as an enrage timer where u need X dps to outdeal the timer? i could also say (like u did) "lolz selfhealing numbers are random, cant beat them trololz"

3)in wow enrage timers where an issue u had to deal with. in progress u brought less healers than the desingers expected (meaning the tolarance of mistakes was decreasing) to have the required dps before u could actually outgear the fight and bring the (by the desingers) intended number of healers. this is what made fights so awesome cause more healers just mean "its possible to make more mistakes without dying". that said most guilds killed encounters with the exact same number of healers and dealers, to have exactly enough healing AND enough dps.

4) enrage timers are way more fun than your healing method.... zerg kills hitting the enrage timer are so much fun and rewarding.

(i was of course talking about hardmode contant and not normal mode)

I don't mind enrage timers, I just don't think they should be sudden death for you. It should make the fight harder (obviously) but you should still be able to keep up with it at least for a short while.

its not like this is the case.

You all are arguing semantics. Whether it's a fixed time or the fight does more and more damage the longer you don't kill the boss, it's still an enrage timer. Hard enrage vs soft enrage as it's called in another game

What some people are trying to say is they want more soft enrages rather than a hard enrage that guarantees death. (There are fights with hard enrages that you can still mitigate, ie, kiting, cd management, my raid/guild/mates have done it before.)

Both are enrage timers.

1) the timers are not random

 

2) so u say we need another mechanic that requires X dps to outdeal the selfhealing... wouldnt that be just the same as an enrage timer where u need X dps to outdeal the timer? i could also say (like u did) "lolz selfhealing numbers are random, cant beat them trololz"

 

3)in wow enrage timers where an issue u had to deal with. in progress u brought less healers than the desingers expected (meaning the tolarance of mistakes was decreasing) to have the required dps before u could actually outgear the fight and bring the (by the desingers) intended number of healers. this is what made fights so awesome cause more healers just mean "its possible to make more mistakes without dying". that said most guilds killed encounters with the exact same number of healers and dealers, to have exactly enough healing AND enough dps.

 

4) enrage timers are way more fun than your healing method.... zerg kills hitting the enrage timer are so much fun and rewarding.

 

(i was of course talking about hardmode contant and not normal mode)

We'll have to agree to disagree. I went over this entire topic ad nasuem yesterday and I'm not up to doing it all over again today.

People like yourself seem to be perfectly content with the status quo that boils every single fight down to MOAR DPS FASTER. I can't have a solid conversation with someone SO ingrained into the current system that they refuse to see bad design for what it is.

I would assume that if there aren't any enrage timers, then

any raid, 8 man, 16 man, 40, man.

All you need would be an awesome tank, and heals,

all the dps can be fresh fresh 50's wearing Greens,

and boss will be downed.

 

Would you want that?

Did you read Leonder's post above????

Obviouosly not, or you don't understand english. Read again and then revise your oppinion.

The mob should selfheal enough to prevent this.

1) the timers are not random

 

2) so u say we need another mechanic that requires X dps to outdeal the selfhealing... wouldnt that be just the same as an enrage timer where u need X dps to outdeal the timer? i could also say (like u did) "lolz selfhealing numbers are random, cant beat them trololz"

 

3)in wow enrage timers where an issue u had to deal with. in progress u brought less healers than the desingers expected (meaning the tolarance of mistakes was decreasing) to have the required dps before u could actually outgear the fight and bring the (by the desingers) intended number of healers. this is what made fights so awesome cause more healers just mean "its possible to make more mistakes without dying". that said most guilds killed encounters with the exact same number of healers and dealers, to have exactly enough healing AND enough dps.

 

4) enrage timers are way more fun than your healing method.... zerg kills hitting the enrage timer are so much fun and rewarding.

(i was of course talking about hardmode contant and not normal mode)

I have in 7 years of WoW NEVER seen as short a timer as any of the hardmodes here. Sorry you talk out of your backside there and if an enrage timer is fun for you I am totally gobsmacked and recommend you open a self torture studio.

Enrage timers CAN BE on endbosses in hardmodes yes. NOT on EVERY boss. This is silly nonsense. I wonder why this is so hard to understand? Plus an 8-man normal OPS is easier than a hardmode 4man FP. Is that right? Is that working as intended? Because this is utter crap. A 4 man should be there to gear you up for OPS not the other way around!

You all are arguing semantics. Whether it's a fixed time or the fight does more and more damage the longer you don't kill the boss, it's still an enrage timer. Hard enrage vs soft enrage as it's called in another game

 

What some people are trying to say is they want more soft enrages rather than a hard enrage that guarantees death. (There are fights with hard enrages that you can still mitigate, ie, kiting, cd management, my raid/guild/mates have done it before.)

 

Both are enrage timers.

People keep saying that - but it doesn't have to be that way.

A DPS check can be a threshold - hit THIS number consistently (time not being a factor) to cause damage more than the mob heals. This is NOT a timer.

A HPS check can be a threshold - heal THIS number consistently (time not being a factor) to avoid wiping. This is NOT a timer.

You have five minutes to do the above and get the mob to zero - THAT is a timer.

I don't give two shakes what someone in WoW wants to call the mechanics of the situation - maybe everything over there IS the same thing but that surely doesn't make it right or the only way.

I honesty have to give up on these threads - the blinders from (I assume) the WoW crew as to what is acceptable and challenging is impossible to overcome.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I went over this entire topic ad nasuem yesterday and I'm not up to doing it all over again today.

 

People like yourself seem to be perfectly content with the status quo that boils every single fight down to MOAR DPS FASTER. I can't have a solid conversation with someone SO ingrained into the current system that they refuse to see bad design for what it is.

well, i had no issues with enrage timers yet, despite at the pre nerf rancor where u just wiped if someone died early. if u r struggeling with enrage timers your dealers should overthink whatever they are doing or u should change ur lineup.

in terms of pve the game is very very easy right now, if u struggle with enrage timers u have to change something.

on the "i wont discuss with you cause im sick of it" topic i can just say, well i dont see your point yet. u said yourself we need some kind of enrage timer be it "boss heals himself for x every x seconds" or "boss deals x% more dmg if u hit x minutes". so yea i dont get your point and it doesnt seem u can explain me why this game would be better without dps requirements.

if u want some kind of softenrage i can tell u its to hard to give every encounter such an enrage.

on the "i wont discuss with you cause im sick of it" topic i can just say, well i dont see your point yet. u said yourself we need some kind of enrage timer be it "boss heals himself for x every x seconds" or "boss deals x% more dmg if u hit x minutes". so yea i dont get your point and it doesnt seem u can explain me why this game would be better without dps requirements.

These things aren't timers - they are thresholds. Nothing 'bad' happens as long as you match the threshold.

I have grown to loathe whomever put up that WoWWiki article calling every mechanic an enrage timer.

I have in 7 years of WoW NEVER seen as short a timer as any of the hardmodes here. Sorry you talk out of your backside there and if an enrage timer is fun for you I am totally gobsmacked and recommend you open a self torture studio.

 

Enrage timers CAN BE on endbosses in hardmodes yes. NOT on EVERY boss. This is silly nonsense. I wonder why this is so hard to understand? Plus an 8-man normal OPS is easier than a hardmode 4man FP. Is that right? Is that working as intended? Because this is utter crap. A 4 man should be there to gear you up for OPS not the other way around!

since burning crusade every raidencounter had an enrage . some had a soft enrage like "buff on the boss stacks so high that he oneshoots everything" but most of them were "after x mins the boss deals 200% more dmg".

well i had no issues with enrage timers outside of ops, so i cant discuss with u about it, i guess.

These things aren't timers - they are thresholds. Nothing 'bad' happens as long as you match the threshold.

 

I have grown to loathe whomever put up that WoWWiki article calling every mechanic an enrage timer.

all u say is "its not called enrage timer its called threshold"

u still havent explained me why the "boss heals himself for x hp" thing is better than an enrage timer. the result is the same: bring x dps to beat so boss (aka dps requirements). so please enlighten me, i still dont get it.

I agree with the OPs general sentiment.

I can even accept Enrage timers/mechanics if they're somehow a comprehensible part of the encounter. Examples of that would be the 3rd and 4th Boss in Karagas Palace.

But adding Enrage timers as the only challenging mechanic is just poor design.

Give bosses clever, intuitive and comprehensible mechanics rather than strict, time-based enrage timers. This applies to Operations as well.

Failing because you mucked up a mechanic is understandable, failing because you failed the enrage-timer is frustrating because there's really little you can do about it ad-hoc. Most of the time this means you need to replace players which isn't always an option.

All in all many HM mechanics are poorly conceived and just scream "lacking MMO experience".

since burning crusade every raidencounter had an enrage timer. some had a soft enrage like "buff on the boss stacks so high that he oneshoots everything" but most of them were "after x mins the boss deals 200% more dmg".

 

well i had no issues with enrage timers outside of ops, so i cant discuss with u about it, i guess.

See - your example here with a buff that applies and slowly ramps up I can agree is a type of enrage mechanic, I suppose.

I personally consider it a buff mechanic that isn't an enrage at all but that is more a matter of opinion. It is something designed into the encounter that needs to be overcome and is obvious by examining the mob.

There are plenty of games out there that I play in a raiding capacity that don't use 'hard' enrage encounters in almost anything and they are perfectly challenging and rewarding.

The 'you lose' timer isn't required.

all u say is "its not called enrage timer its called threshold"

 

u still havent explained me why the "boss heals himself for x hp" thing is better than an enrage timer. the result is the same: bring x dps to beat so boss (aka dps requirements). so please enlighten me, i still dont get it.

Gladly.

With the DPS threshold - assuming I match it over the course of the fight (see: no timer) I am meeting the criteria that everyone else is held to in order to kill the boss. My DPS can vary slightly, high to low, over the course of the fight and I can adjust my strategies and those of my teammates to correct. This is called: playing the game.

In this scenario it doesn't matter that I took 5 minutes and 30 seconds to kill the mob while you took 5 minutes to do it. There is no need to penalize me for figuring out the encounter and adjusting as I go - that is what SHOULD be happening.

A hard time limit does nothing than decide that even though you are perfectly capable of downing the content through adjustments and rotation changes, etc. - a designer picked a limit on how long you have to do it. That does not make the fight any more challenging for anyone, it makes every fight the same. MORE DPS WINS.

Does that help you at all?

See - your example here with a buff that applies and slowly ramps up I can agree is a type of enrage mechanic, I suppose.

 

I personally consider it a buff mechanic that isn't an enrage at all but that is more a matter of opinion. It is something designed into the encounter that needs to be overcome and is obvious by examining the mob.

 

There are plenty of games out there that I play in a raiding capacity that don't use 'hard' enrage encounters in almost anything and they are perfectly challenging and rewarding.

 

The 'you lose' timer isn't required.

its not about requirements its about design. i already stated its very VERY hard to give every encounter a softenrage. u have to give those encounters buffs that stack over time or abilitys that deal more dmg over time, or mechanics that become harder over time. + they have to adjust them to balance them correctly to be a challange while beeing beatable. its way easier to say "u need x dps in x mins". the "i lose" timeline is way easier to balance.

that said those softenrage fights would be easy at the start and get harder over time and i can tell u those softenrages can be way more fursttrating than hardenrages. sometimes u may be at 10% bosshealth remaining but the boss just oneshoots ur tank with like 100hp overkill or have the situation that "if u get 3hits in a row without cds u r dead".

if softenrages are properly desinged it all comes down to luck, and i dont like wiping if the group played 100% perfectly but cause of unlucky **** u wipe.

mmos NEED dps requirements be it a softenrage or a hardenrage or another mechanic. but if i can choose i will take the hardenrage. u would understand me if u would have played wow on a competetive level (in pve) like i did.

its not about requirements its about design. i already stated its very VERY hard to give every encounter a softenrage. u have to give those encounters buffs that stack over time or abilitys that deal more dmg over time, or mechanics that become harder over time. + they have to adjust them to balance them correctly to be a challange while beeing beatable. its way easier to say "u need x dps in x mins". the "i lose" timeline is way easier to balance.

 

that said those softenrage fights would be easy at the start and get harder over time and i can tell u those softenrages can be way more fursttrating than hardenrages. sometimes u may be at 10% bosshealth remaining but the boss just oneshoots ur tank with like 100hp overkill or have the situation that "if u get 3hits in a row without cds u r dead".

if softenrages are properly desinged it all comes down to luck, and i dont like wiping if the group played 100% perfectly but cause of unlucky **** u wipe.

 

mmos NEED dps requirements be it a softenrage or a hardenrage or another mechanic. but if i can choose i will take the hardenrage. u would understand me if u would have played wow on a competetive level (in pve) like i did.

I admit to never playing WoW so I don't have to deal with this mechanic.

The games I have historically played apparently aren't afraid to work on the encounters and build in buffs and other elements to make the fighting challenging with being frustrating.

I shall mark this as another item on the list of things that WoW is doing to help destroy innovation and creativity.

Most of the hardmode content is ok, but for christ's sake: The endboss fight is a total joke. On Rep side almost undoable. (Imp gets favoured by the devs as we all know and the advantage that peefs me in PvP - iE Animation times to apply damage etc - clearly makes it almost a cakewalk in comparison I would imagine) But that is besides the point. The point is this: Who the hell came up with the ill fated idea to have a 2 MINUTE (!!!!) enrage timer on a hardmode boss that is there to gear up for OPS if you need OPS gear to beat the enrage timer?

 

*ranting snipped*

 

P.S.: So we are clear: average gear level of the group around 126!!!!!! O.o Outrageous!

It's only outrageous because you're making it harder on yourself than necessary. Run easy mode Operations first, then go do some hard mode Flashpoints. The easy mode Ops are easier than hard modes in FPs. If you're fighting something you obviously can't kill before an enrage timer goes off you simply need better gear. It's not hard to get either, normal mode EV is rather easy.

Easy mode EV drops Columi gear, just like hard mode FPs. You'll get random armor pieces for a few people each boss (plus other bits). Once you've done it a few times you can target specific hard mode FPs to get the armor pieces people are missing and fill everyone out.

Level to 50.

Run daily Belsavis/Ilum quests

Run normal Ops

Run hard mode FPs

Run hard mode Ops

PS: Your PS should read "minimum of 126" and not "average gear level of the group around 126" if you want to rant. If everyone can't even be bothered to fill out with easy to get daily quest rewards you don't have any business going off about how hard modes are designed. Anyone not at or above 126 level daily bits is not ready for a hard mode.

I admit to never playing WoW so I don't have to deal with this mechanic.

 

The games I have historically played apparently aren't afraid to work on the encounters and build in buffs and other elements to make the fighting challenging with being frustrating.

 

I shall mark this as another item on the list of things that WoW is doing to help destroy innovation and creativity.

well, i just said bosses need enrages and all of them had one. i didnt say the enrage timers were always an issue. that said per raiding tier there were like 1-2 encounters where u had to beat a hardenrage but there were also softenrages (boss tacks buff y on him higher and higher or raid gets dot x that ticks higher and higher) and many of them were just hard cause of their mechanics.

edit:

to give u an example why i say "bosses need enrages"... there was an encounter called "omnotron defense system" (feel free to google/youtube it). this encounter had a 15minute enrage timer. with the "regular" raid setup (like 7-8healers) it was very challanging, interesting mechanics, and a hard encounter. but cause of its 15mins enrage timer some people just stacked 12-13healers and just healed through all the errors the people made.

well, i just said bosses need enrages and all of them had one. i didnt say the enrage timers were always an issue. that said per raiding tier there were like 1-2 encounters where u had to beat a hardenrage but there were also softenrages (boss tacks buff y on him higher and higher or raid gets dot x that ticks higher and higher) and many of them were just hard cause of their mechanics.

Understood.