I read parts of this thread with interest.

Background -

Main is a Sawbones, Valor 70, 16man hard mode clears and 8 man Nightmare clears (with titles)

Alts I have a 50 trooper tank and a 50 sage healer.

Now my focus is on the Sawbones and I do really enjoy the class, but lets face facts. I can do anything on the sage that I can do on the sawbones and its EASIER. Resource management on the sage is a joke next to the sawbones. Managing Force Vs managing Energy / Upper hand, its just far easier.

Raid healing on the sage is a joke, the sawbones requires a little more jumping around. Tank healing on both is fine, the sawbones I roll hots and go heal as required, Sage has the advantage on some fights though since I can bubble to soak burst, basically I can deal with burst on both fine, its just easier on the sage.

Pretty much the sage just has far more functionality that it brings to the Ops group and gets the job done easier. Obviously it can be done on a Sawbones, hell I have the titles and all that crap so I've done it.

I've Ops healed with commando's and sages, that includes me and a Commando healing with no sage present. Apart from AoE damage management they are both capable in the right hands. Talking with our commando healers though I know they feel that sages are more capable healers than either of us. Skill has nothing to do with it, I'm lucky in that we have very good healers, the simple fact is thier toolset is better.

Sticking with the sawbones for now and hoping for changes soon ... I love my sawbones but having a sage too I'm well aware of the short comings of the class.

Playing both the Sawbones healing spec and Scrapper DPS spec of smuggler has really brought to light the healing issues in this game.

Let me start off by saying I LOVE the smuggler class, I LOVE the healing spec, I just can't believe how big a mess they made of this... UH/TA while a great concept was implemented poorly. The buff duration is WAY too short, the fact that both stacks fall off at the end of the buff is completely ridiculous, and to top it all off if you are casting Kolto Pack (Which requires UH, and I only use as DPS) and UH/TA falls off.... IT STOPS YOUR CAST.

Now I must admit I don't have a ton of PvE experience as I am mainly a PvPer though I have cleared all the HM content on my smuggler as the healer. I can tell you in the one instance we ran Smugg/Commando healing instead of my normal Sage partner I can notice a difference in how much healing I had to put out. It was amazing... Still cleared but a little too much like work for my taste.

Now for PvP....oh PvP... This is where I spend most of my time. Smuggler healing in PvP is very viable, honestly it is. My tank has to put guard on me less than our other healers as I tend to "stay out of trouble" somewhat better than our Sages and Commandos but the shortcoming of the class become rather obvious under serious pressure.

A) This class is a one trick healing pony, under 30% we got you, pop a relic and PvP adrenal and I can spam and giggle all day! Now let me ask you healers a question, isn't the point of healing to keep people from ever getting to under 30%? Right that's what I thought, so while this can be wildly entertaining (Giggling while you and your tank flat out refuse to die does bring a smile to my face) it's not really what I'm hoping for as a healer.

B) I'm supposed to be mobile right? So I cast my HoT's (Which eat my energy to stack) I PRAY for an UH/TA proc (Which can I add the % to proc should double with a two stack of the HoT) I spam my cleanse on CD (SO SO glad this actually heals for a decent amount and is the only saving grace for "mobility") I hit my awful energy draining soul sucking AoE HoT (If I could find a place to put this point that I really thought was better I'd drop it) and I run around spamming Emergency medpack.... congratulations you've healed... nobody put yourself and maybe not even that.

C) I know people like to throw terms around like "Mobile healer" and "HoTs" when they talk about Smugg/Op healing... please don't, all that does is make people think that's really what's going on...it's not. Do I have more mobility than say a commando? Yes but I also don't have an AoE knockback but I do have to cast a 2 second heal (IE not moving) to really be effective as a healer and I know I'm asking for it here but Sage healing can be more mobile when played correctly. Bubble (Cast on the run) HoT (Cast on the run) 1.5 sec nuke heal (Fast than my "Mobile" healers heal) AoE knockback, Sprint, repeat.... I don't want to start a war but even on my 38 Sage the toolkit I've been given to react to EVERY situation is just amazing.... and I'm sorry but to only put two TWO points in my healing tree and throw out 100-150K healing in a WZ... that's just ridiculous. I digress.

D) As a scrapper DPS it's my job to kill healers, and I do my job rather well I think. As far as killing healers go... Smugg/Op is by far the easiest burst them down (They are squishy like Sage squishy but no bubble and defensive screen our 45sec CD absorbs LESS than one bubble does and the talent that makes it so we get healed for 15% more only works while it's active, in other words you hit it ONCE it's gone and we don't get the bonus anymore, well thought out >.<) I open on a sage I have to go through two bubbles (more often than not) the AoE knockback, chase them after they sprint, make sure to only kick the big heal which means letting them get free healing from channel, and hope and pray during all this they don't have a tank or DPS paying attention. Commando's are a little easier just becuase after the knockback I don't have to worry about them sprinting away and kicking their big heal is MUCH worse for them then kicking the sages. You kick a smugg/op's heal...they are dead.

To get off my soap box and rant I'll end with adding upfront healing to our already crappy AoE doesn't do much as it's still 1/3 of our energy just to cast. I honestly hope they don't think we are all going to jump for joy about this change and think "BioWare listened! They are helping" because that's so far down the list of *** were you thinking when you built this class it's not even funny.

I've said this since I hit 50, Scoundrel/Op healing and DPS are flawed at a fundamental design level, just not an ability or talent tree level but as a class in general and a total class overhaul/redesign is the only way to truly fix it. The most we can hope for is a few cosmetic fixes that at least put the class in contention at 50.

You drop a sage from your PvP group what do you loose?

Bubble, AoE knockback, friendly pull, amazing throughput, armor buff

You drop a commando from your PvP group what do you loose?

Very good burst healing, "earthshield", armor buff, DR buff, and healing buff

You drop a Scoundrel from your PvP group what do you loose?

5% crit

Edit: Sorry for the wall, I tried to break it up and cut down my thoughts on the class, I've just had quite a bit of time to think about all of this and have a hard time not ranting about it

this isn't a troll post, i'm honestly under-informed, and would like to know more. before I ask for your time to give me some info, i'll say that I'm a Merc BH bodyguard, and am ALSO re-rolling a sorc because i feel my heals are totally underwhelming, especially when compared to the sorc.

my confusion is that when i'm healing 8man HM EV8 with one of our new ops, and we were standing around just BS'ing and healing each other, his heals were consistently healing for more than mine, and i greatly outgear him (i was in full columi, every slot, plus rakata commendation implants/ear), he was in half columi, half orange. I definitely had the gear advantage, yet he was still healing for more per ability.

i'm not looking for a comparison, nor am i looking for a contest of justification on "which healer is the most gimped", because it's kinda moot.

i'm just looking to be educated on what the op healer community views as the biggest problems for them.

Good post, navido, but I think you meant to say "Commando" for one of those at the bottom instead of Sage twice. Probably the one with "earthshield," in which case you forgot our DR shield.

I did mean Commando and that has been fixed and I didn't add the DR shield because it can't be cast on others

I did mean Commando and that has been fixed and I didn't add the DR shield because it can't be cast on others

Our Kolto Bomb applies a 10% DR shield to anyone it hits while our SCC buff is up.

Ru,

What do you make about Georg's latest post on Operative Healing? the its working as designed part scares me a lot.

"hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg"

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3310841#edit3310841

this isn't a troll post, i'm honestly under-informed, and would like to know more. before I ask for your time to give me some info, i'll say that I'm a Merc BH bodyguard, and am ALSO re-rolling a sorc because i feel my heals are totally underwhelming, especially when compared to the sorc.

 

my confusion is that when i'm healing 8man HM EV8 with one of our new ops, and we were standing around just BS'ing and healing each other, his heals were consistently healing for more than mine, and i greatly outgear him (i was in full columi, every slot, plus rakata commendation implants/ear), he was in half columi, half orange. I definitely had the gear advantage, yet he was still healing for more per ability.

 

i'm not looking for a comparison, nor am i looking for a contest of justification on "which healer is the most gimped", because it's kinda moot.

 

i'm just looking to be educated on what the op healer community views as the biggest problems for them.

To go into a lot of detail would require knowing what you were both casting, but the short answer is that it isn't just gear, it is also the "coefficients" on abilities.

All abilities are defined by three values. There are two values that define the minimum and maximum of the base heal, the range you would heal for if naked. The third value is the coefficient, and that is the number your Bonus Healing is multiplied by.

For our nuke heals, their big heal is Deliverance, and ours is Medical Probe. While the coefficient on Deliverance is bigger, it also takes longer to cast, and the coefficient per cast time is actually the same.

What that means for you is that if you both cast on each other, you will see big numbers from him, but over the same time you will heal for the same in the same gear...if only spamming those two heals. Of course, they can spam longer without running out of Force, but they have fewer tools to get back up afterwards.

If you are talking about AoE heals instead of big single target heals, that's because their coefficient is much larger than ours, once you factor in the ticks (10) and tick rate (1/s).

Very good post, navido!

Yes, not only is the operative/scoundrel healing gimped (our HoT vs sorc bubble + reliance on TA + limited by resource management), but we also have 0 displacement abilities, or protection against them. Sorcerers have an AoE knockback(!) on a short CD, and a friendly grip. Not to mention the speed buff of course.

I really don't know anything about merc/commando healing, so can't compare them, but I've heard that all other classes have either a knockback/grip/jump or an ability making them immune to these things, and most have both. Operatives have none.

It's just sad that a sorcerer can be so much more in terms of effort per result.

Our Kolto Bomb applies a 10% DR shield to anyone it hits while our SCC buff is up.

AHHH right this is true and a good point I'll add to the post.

Ru,

 

What do you make about Georg's latest post on Operative Healing? the its working as designed part scares me a lot.

 

 

 

"hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg"

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3310841#edit3310841

I had to go and read the thread to get the context.

My first response is: "Why does he reply to these troll threads and not any of the worthwhile ones that people create?"

The answer appears to be two things:

1) His personality. Replying to trolls allows for snarky and dismissive posts, and he seems to enjoy that style.

2) He is correct, in context. The thread is about the imbalance in resource mechanics, and takes a fairly simplistic approach to analyzing it. By responding to troll threads, he has more opportunities to (correctly) say "working as intended" than he would have if responding to the more valuable threads where the critiques are better argued and more thorough, and there is less risk of a reasoned response in a troll thread.

The resources ARE different. This IS intended, because they ARE different classes. As a result, you have to play differently, and that to IS intended.

A far more valuable OP would have assumed a fixed damage incoming, then showed the rotation both classes would follow to cope with it, and the net resource change after X seconds, coupled with the time until they were out of resources. If double the Operative time (due to Adrenaline Probe) was shorter than the Sage time, then there is a problem. If the Operative rotation could not keep up with the incoming damage, but the Sage could, then there is a problem.

Simply spamming your most expensive spells, the Sage will always win, but it isn't a valid comparison, and easily leaves the door open for GZ to come in and dismiss you with a snarky remark.

I'd say the better plan would be to form strong arguments and word them well, without absurd accusations, but we've seen that he does not reply to those threads, and when replying to the Q&A questions that get selected he answers parallel but different questions, avoiding the key complaint.

In short: it was a bad troll OP, and should have been ignored. GZ chose not to ignore it, because he prefers responding to trolls over rewarding constructive community involvement, and, within that context he is exactly correct.

*edit* They have said a sizable chunk of changes are coming in Patch 1.2. He clearly can't say "Yup, Operatives are pretty broken right now but wait until April," as it would cause a mass-exodus. I hate to say it, but I think the answer is wait til April before expecting to see/hear anything of value on the topic, or at least til the 1.2 notes hit the PTS.

 

I really don't know anything about merc/commando healing, so can't compare them, but I've heard that all other classes have either a knockback/grip/jump or an ability making them immune to these things, and most have both. Operatives have none.

Commandos have an AoE knockback. They have no grip, and no displacement protection (good term for it, by the way, hadn't heard that one before).

It's just sad that a sorcerer can be so much more in terms of effort per result.

Indeed. "Working as intended."

I really don't know anything about merc/commando healing, so can't compare them, but I've heard that all other classes have either a knockback/grip/jump or an ability making them immune to these things, and most have both. Operatives have none.

 

It's just sad that a sorcerer can be so much more in terms of effort per result.

Merc have a knockback (jetboost) on a 30 second cooldown, no grip, and no jump

we do not have anything that makes us immune, but we have the CC break on 2 minute timer everyone else does.

we have the interrupt prevention for 12 seconds, if we talent into it (which you do not, if you're PvE spec'd), and only if you activate your bubble on a 2 minute timer.

so, operatives aren't alone, BH don't have those functions either, at least not BH HEALERS.

I've always said that Scoundrel/Op's dodge ability should make them immune to knockbacks/pulls. As the only class in the game with no gap closer either positive (Life grip/charge/sprint) or negative (knockback/pull) they should have a short duration immunity to these (Shadow/Assassins get this in the form of resilience which makes them immune to force and tech... so all knockbacks, roots, stuns, pulls AND some of the harder hitting DPS abilities at the same time)

It's a 1 min CD, only applies to "auto attack" dmg and would add some "skill" in the knockback game. In that will this person notice the giant green bubble around me and wait 3 seconds to knock me back? Or are they going to hit it anyways.

I've also toyed with the idea of letting bubble have a sprint component added to it (not the crappy talent that doesn't work) of say 100% speed for the duration which makes it slower than Con/Inq sprint but last a touch longer. Would help both the healers for an escape and give the DPS a gap closer.

Also, and I know I'm kinda jumping all over the place here but the thoughts just kinda run along sometimes, having stealth as a healer subtract from what you can do because it takes up "points" when building the class is so unbelievable short sighted... as the "stealth" healing class we should have a few things

A) A very large, nuke, ZOMG heal OUT OF STEALTH just like the DPS opener, give us a reason to stealth aside from "hiding" from the big bad DPS

B) Vanish means we can't heal or be healed for 10 seconds as the healer.... whichever DEV put this in the game with no way for a healer to spec out of it.... I dislike you. Seriously you can't call vanish a "survival" CD when it means we can't do what we've spec'd to do!

/endrant

Ru,

 

What do you make about Georg's latest post on Operative Healing? the its working as designed part scares me a lot.

 

 

 

"hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Smuggler.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg"

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3310841#edit3310841

This was my response to that post in that thread. Not that he'll read it but maybe it'll get some more visibility here:

"Hey brah,

It's already been proven in countless threads that agents get the shaft when it comes to comparing sorc to agent (even merc to agent?). Additionally, this is the first time I've ever seen a dev answer -any- agent complaint about anything. As I play an operative healer, I still do fine in ops and flashpoints. That's not the issue. Like Animal Farm, the healers in this game do more "fine" than others, often by a wide margin. The people who are discussing the inherent issues with agent mechanics deserve a little more respect. Does the OP? That's up for discussion.

The fact that you responded to a pot shot thread rather than people who carefully maintain and update their agent threads with statistical evidence that heavily favors any other healer than the agent shows that you really don't take the agent community seriously and are perfectly willing to let our class fade into the background to please the majority.

I can understand your frustration, but this is the first time I've been appalled at a dev response- not because of your "witty" retort in this thread, but because after all of the devs ignoring perfectly legitimate complaints about our class mechanics for what seems like the beginning of launch, this is the thread you chose to respond to, acting like a child rather than addressing the agent community's complaints at large.

Pathetic."

Ruqu, how can you always remain this constructive, detailed and polite?

After Georg Zoeller's last post in the operative forum, something snapped. I just want to give them the finger and unsub.

Ruqu, how can you always remain this constructive, detailed and polite?

After Georg Zoeller's last post in the operative forum, something snapped. I just want to give them the finger and unsub.

Conscious choice mostly, with a touch of insight.

On the internet there are almost no consequences for our behavior. For some people this is liberating, as it means that they don't have to fear getting punched in the teeth for acting how they wish they could in real life (namely terribly).

For others this is infuriating because they really, really want to punch those people square in the face, and rightly so as they tend to deserve it.

While I'm not perfect about it (who is?), I try and not let the first group of people push me into the second. It happens. But most of the time I realize that the people behaving the worst on the internet are just people who spend their lives in powerless fear. They can't lash out at anyone around them no matter how much they want to, for fear of the consequences, so they come here, to the internet, and they finally can, and they go mad with the "power" of it.

So most of the time, when I start to get angry at a troll, I just pause for a moment and think about how sad and afraid they must be all the time to have such pent up impotent rage. Then I laugh a little, and decide that it is beneath me to respond to that, just as you shouldn't respond to a 3 year old throwing a tantrum.

Instead I try and see if there was any kernel of rational thought within their post, and I respond to that. Perhaps, in some idealistic fantasy land in a galaxy far, far away, tending to this bud of rational thought might encourage it to grow, and one day they will contribute positively. In this darker, less lightsabery world we actually inhabit, I figure that a decent response might get other people to participate in a decent conversation despite the original intent.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes I start plotting to find the troll and punch them right in their face. And that's when I reach for the ignore button.

Mostly I just wish we had tools for community enforcement, like downvoting posts, up and down voting users, etc, so we could punish/silence trolls and encourage people who make good posts.

As for unsubscribing...its a tool. Use it if you want. You always get the last say when you press it, and you can keep playing until your subscription runs out, you can always resubscribe before then, and, if this is at all like WoW, even after your subscription lapses your characters aren't deleted. So if GZ really pissed you off this time, do it. Unsubscribe, and in the "Why" box write a detailed memo about how GZ responds to trolls and ignores the people politely asking for real feedback, and how his remarks disrespect the community and make you feel like he thinks your class(es), and therefore you as a player, are unimportant.

You can still keep playing, if things change or you cool down, you can resubscribe, and you will have spoken in the loudest words they know....cash.

Ruqu, how can you always remain this constructive, detailed and polite?

After Georg Zoeller's last post in the operative forum, something snapped. I just want to give them the finger and unsub.

My reaction was to sigh sadly while rubbing my pained temples, but I can empathize with your impulse too.

I don't suppose anything about Operative healing (or healing state overall) was mentioned at the guild summit?

I just watched the part were some fat chick asked the devs why the same piece of armor sometimes had a different color gradient when worn by different classes..

I don't suppose anything about Operative healing (or healing state overall) was mentioned at the guild summit?

 

I just watched the part were some fat chick asked the devs why the same piece of armor sometimes had a different color gradient when worn by different classes..

Basically this was said about healing in Guild Summit + Q&A: "Healing is fine, all classes are balanced, and we dont *********** care about Operatives cuz no one uses them anyways, we just want to keep the most used class Sorcs on top of the rest :)"

Or that's how it sounded in my mind at least.

Basically this was said about healing in Guild Summit + Q&A: "Healing is fine, all classes are balanced, and we dont *********** care about Operatives cuz no one uses them anyways, we just want to keep the most used class Sorcs on top of the rest :)"

 

Or that's how it sounded in my mind at least.

I try to play my sage, I really do. I am at 50, and still cant make myself even finish up chapter 3 and start in on the daily quests. I just dont enjoy feeling like I do no work for stellar results.

It might just be me, but I actually LIKE a lot about smuggler/operative healing....its just so far behind sage other people would be dumb to NOT use sage healer. I deleted an operative that was near 50 when I moved to the republic side just because of how depressed it made me, and now I am working up a smuggler because I just want it to be good, and had hopes after the comments about Kolto Cloud being redone that they had good things in store for smugglers.

I have a small kernel of hope left that when 1.2 is put on test server we will see some amazing changes to smugglers, like vanish no longer crapping on healing for 10 seconds, the changes for KC they have planned, a benefit to one of the heals if casted from stealth, better upper hand management, some added utility and other assorted quality of life changes. I really hope they dazzle people so we say " You know, smugglers might be as good as sages now!"

Seeing a dev comment made to a troll post about operatives stung for sure. I will hold off on getting TOO mad about it till 1.2 because I am praying they have MANY comments to make in the many threads coming about the changes to them.

If I see nothing, and no real changes to the classes to make them comparable, I might just unsub myself. Considering I spent over 1k on a new pc JUST for this game, bought a CE and everything.....if I unsub they should realize something is wrong...since I am the "key" demographic they should be working on keeping.

It might just be me, but I actually LIKE a lot about smuggler/operative healing....its just so far behind sage other people would be dumb to NOT use sage healer.

That's how I think/feel too. I really like the concept of the Agent.

And that dev comment was rude indeed. Sure, the thread starter was exaggerating and presenting data erroneously, but wow, what a way to treat customers.

As someone has in their signature, Agent/Smuggler forums have 6 (+1 troll) dev replies, whilst Inq/Consular have 70+ or so.

Basically this was said about healing in Guild Summit + Q&A: "Healing is fine, all classes are balanced, and we dont *********** care about Operatives cuz no one uses them anyways, we just want to keep the most used class Sorcs on top of the rest :)"

 

Or that's how it sounded in my mind at least.

Bioware is the creator of a game called Dragon Mage: Origins. You know, that RPG where there are two balanced classes and a third class that's basically a god. Bioware LOVES mages.

Ops are a filler class. It's the Druid/Paladin from vanilla Wow, the class the devs threw together in 15 minutes so that they could go back to giving Sorcs cool new abilities. IIRC, Druids weren't fixed for a year and a half, paladins weren't fixed for a full five years.

The worst part isn't the class is broken. That I can live with. It's the sense that, as I'm playing the class, that they spent absolutely no time developing it and that they don't really care about it. THAT's what bugs me.

It might just be me, but I actually LIKE a lot about smuggler/operative healing....its just so far behind sage other people would be dumb to NOT use sage healer.

EXCATLY this is how I feel. Even being sub-par I still use my Operative as my main cuz I love it, I love the story behind it, and some of the mechanics are nice. But overall we are way behind Sorcs/Sages and this needs to get fixed ASAP.

The only reason I'm complaining is because I love my Op and I don't want to be forced to reroll just because of unbalanced classes.

PS: I urge all Operatives/Scoundrels or anyone who supports us to Cancel Subscription and as a reason give it "Class unbalance" (you can subscribe to game time once again whenever you want) maybe THIS way the devs will hear us.

EXCATLY this is how I feel. Even being sub-par I still use my Operative as my main cuz I love it, I love the story behind it, and some of the mechanics are nice. But overall we are way behind Sorcs/Sages and this needs to get fixed ASAP.

 

The only reason I'm complaining is because I love my Op and I don't want to be forced to reroll just because of unbalanced classes.

 

PS: I urge all Operatives/Scoundrels or anyone who supports us to Cancel Subscription and as a reason give it "Class unbalance" (you can subscribe to game time once again whenever you want) maybe THIS way the devs will hear us.

+1

I love your signature btw

I can't believe we have a lead developer trolling our forums

I... I can't even think about his post because it just makes me made. What does it even mean?!?! Are the classes meant to be imbalanced?

Yes dev we know we aren't a sorc, I mean it's a total news flash and oh wait.... You mean we don't have the same abilities?! WHAat?!?! You mean my mirror class isn't a counsler?! When did this happen?!

Well I'm glad I read his post - I now know that my mirror class is a scoundrel and that I have different abilities compared to a sorc- thanks for clearing all that up!