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ETA on Advanced Class change?


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You been shown more than once that that page lists the story classes. You been asked more than once how your class is listed IN GAME, but I guess once more wouldn't hurt.

 

What does your guild roster( the in game documentation) list as your CLASS?

 

In fact, I dare you to provide a screen shot of your guild roster. You won't, though, because it would definitively list the vast majority of the member's CLASSES as mercenary, powertech, sniper, operative, gunslinger, scoundrel, commando, vanguard, etc.

 

Keep in mind that one could contend that even Bioware has created confusion with respect to what ACs actually represent in the game, as multiple quotes posted in this thread as well as official sources have clearly demonstrated.

 

I think it's more likely that ACs are not considered classes in their own right, or more accurately no one at Bioware actually KNOWS how to define what your AC actually represents. Devs have presented one conflicting and confusing opinion after another, even opposing their own prior opinions on the subject.

 

To me it feels like a class, though it is a pretty weak class distinction IMO. That goes to bad design.

 

I just want them to be clear on the matter once and for all, one way or another, as you well know.

Edited by LordArtemis
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You been shown more than once that that page lists the story classes. You been asked more than once how your class is listed IN GAME, but I guess once more wouldn't hurt.

When you create your character you are asked to select a Class.

When you go to a Class trainer to level up abilities they list Class and Advanced Class on separate tabs.

When you unlock companions in game it is by Class.

When you unlock heroic moment buff it is by Class.

When you unlock the Class Buff it is by Class.

When you want to show off with legacy unlock emotes it is by Class.

What does your guild roster( the in game documentation) list as your CLASS?

It depends what their level is, those lower guildies are listed by their Class, those higher than 10+ are listed by their Advanced Class.

In fact, I dare you to provide a screen shot of your guild roster. You won't, though, because it would definitively list the vast majority of the member's CLASSES as mercenary, powertech, sniper, operative, gunslinger, scoundrel, commando, vanguard, etc.

I'm not in any guilds at the moment so that would be kind of hard ;)

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EVERY assassin can stealth. NO sorcerer can.

Assassins are MELEE tank and DPS. Sorcerers are RANGED DPS and heals.

 

EVERY operative can stealth. NO sniper can.

 

Those seems to be a pretty BIG differences right there.

 

In fact, the assassin being a melee ranged stealth class is an AWFUL lot like WoW's rogue and the sorcerer being RANGED DPS and heals seems an AWFUL lot like WoW's priest.

 

I guess those similarities are meaningless since YOU declared them to be "sloppy at best".

 

That was very sloppy. Shall we discuss the list of similarities between an Assassin and a Sorcerer and the lack of similarities between a rogue and priest? WoW has nothing like the advanced class system that SWTOR has. Do you even play this game?

 

The variety of gameplay within the Scoundrel AC is wider than the difference between a DF Scoundrel and a DF GS. Yet people can respec from Sawbones to DF whenever they like. How is learning another AC an issue when learning a spec within your own AC can be a bigger leap?

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When you create your character you are asked to select a Class.

When you go to a Class trainer to level up abilities they list Class and Advanced Class on separate tabs.

When you unlock companions in game it is by Class.

When you unlock heroic moment buff it is by Class.

When you unlock the Class Buff it is by Class.

When you want to show off with legacy unlock emotes it is by Class.

 

It depends what their level is, those lower guildies are listed by their Class, those higher than 10+ are listed by their Advanced Class.

 

I'm not in any guilds at the moment so that would be kind of hard ;)

 

 

I KNEW you wouldn't take the dare. Thank you for proving me right.

 

Since you want to use the excuse that you are not in any guilds at the moment, how about a screen shot of a "/who" in fleet sorted by CLASS?

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I think both of you proved your point. I also think both of you are being a bit silly.

Oh, I think the old 'Ratajack vs Vhaegrant' roundabout of semantics has long since left the land of silly and entered the realm of tragedy ;)

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Oh, I think the old 'Ratajack vs Vhaegrant' roundabout of semantics has long since left the land of silly and entered the realm of tragedy ;)

 

I'm still waiting for that screen shot. I expect that I will be waiting for a long time for such a screen shot since it seems that none of those posters who want to see class changes implemented have the stones to actually post a screen shot of a /who in fleet sorted by CLASS.

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Oh, I think the old 'Ratajack vs Vhaegrant' roundabout of semantics has long since left the land of silly and entered the realm of tragedy ;)

 

I'm still waiting for that screen shot. I expect that I will be waiting for a long time for such a screen shot since it seems that none of those posters who want to see class changes implemented have the stones to actually post a screen shot of a /who in fleet sorted by CLASS.

 

Actually I would rather see you two have the "stones" to stop being petty. You guys both know what that screen shot will look like, and I think no one is disputing how it would look. At least not that I have seen, though I might have missed it.

 

Posting a shot of it proves nothing beyond both of your substantiated points which I think both of you have successfully proven IMO. Unfortunately, that means neither side "wins" the argument.

 

In other words Ratajack, we might have proven our case from one point of view, but they have just as many points to make that have validity. And I think you know that.

 

That doesn't mean the overall view that AC is NOT a class is correct IMO, but I think it is a rather personal view, since evidence exists that it is....and it isn't.

Edited by LordArtemis
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Look, to be even clearer, here is the problem as I see it.

 

We have evidence that supports the idea that AC is a class. We have dev statements, official releases, links, etc. We ALSO have the very same thing that supports the idea that it is NOT a class from the same sources, even the exact same people in some cases. All the proof has been posted in this thread.

 

So it comes down to personal interpretation IMO.

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Look, to be even clearer, here is the problem as I see it.

 

We have evidence that supports the idea that AC is a class. We have dev statements, official releases, links, etc. We ALSO have the very same thing that supports the idea that it is NOT a class from the same sources, even the exact same people in some cases. All the proof has been posted in this thread.

 

So it comes down to personal interpretation IMO.

I mentioned this before, and I think it's worth giving it another go: This game has "Base Classes" and it has "Advanced Classes"

 

The unmodified word "Class" doesn't really apply here. Some things in this game only apply to Base Classes (e.g. Story Missions, Legacy Presence Bonus, Herioc Moment CD, Legacy Class Buff), and yet, other things in this game apply only to Advanced Classes (e.g. Healing and Tank roles)

 

The argument about what is or isn't a class will go on forever, until one notices that there isn't such a thing as a "Class" in TOR. There is only "Base Classes" and "Advanced Classes".

Edited by Khevar
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I'm still waiting for that screen shot. I expect that I will be waiting for a long time for such a screen shot since it seems that none of those posters who want to see class changes implemented have the stones to actually post a screen shot of a /who in fleet sorted by CLASS.

 

You'll be waiting for a very very long time as I've never posted any pictures over the internet. Call me a technophobe in that regards.

 

The trouble I have with your argument is that is the only point of reference you have within SWTOR and it is largely based on a level of redundancy to save column space on the Social panel. They could have probably have had a Class column and an Advanced Class column.

 

All your other references in support of your argument come from outdated quotes (And when I say outdated I don't just mean old, I mean made by people who are no longer working on the game, at a time the game was in development flux and before a more recent (albeit still old quote) by a current dev) and largely supported by how another game defines class (your constant referenceing to World of Warcraft).

 

I get you are not in favour of allowing an AC swapping feature. But, would it be beyond the realms of possibility for you to use the terms SWTOR actually uses everywhere else in its documentation?

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...You guys both know what that screen shot will look like, and I think no one is disputing how it would look. At least not that I have seen, though I might have missed it.

 

Posting a shot of it proves nothing beyond both of your substantiated points which I think both of you have successfully proven IMO. Unfortunately, that means neither side "wins" the argument.

 

In other words Ratajack, we might have proven our case from one point of view, but they have just as many points to make that have validity. And I think you know that.

 

That doesn't mean the overall view that AC is NOT a class is correct IMO, but I think it is a rather personal view, since evidence exists that it is....and it isn't.

 

 

Look, to be even clearer, here is the problem as I see it.

 

We have evidence that supports the idea that AC is a class. We have dev statements, official releases, links, etc. We ALSO have the very same thing that supports the idea that it is NOT a class from the same sources, even the exact same people in some cases. All the proof has been posted in this thread.

 

So it comes down to personal interpretation IMO.

 

Highlighting mine.

 

I highlighted what is, IMO, the most important part.

 

I agree with you, Lord, that BW has not been as clear as they could have been with regards to AC's being different classes.

 

Short of actually having a dev pop in and clarify whether or not your AC is your class, there will be always room for "interpretation" (the ability to ignore anything which does not support whichever side you happen to support). IMO, even if a dev were to pop in and make a definitive statement one way or the other (for example, that your AC IS your class), we would likely still have some who would find a reason to dismiss that statement (that it was made by someone other than the current lead designer, for example).

 

Like you, I would like very much to see a gold post clarifying whether or not AC's are separate classes, or merely specs, as well as whether or not AC changes are even still on the wall of crazy. Given their staunch silence on this topic since that statement from over a year and half ago, though, I do not think that we will be seeing any such statement any time soon.

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You'll be waiting for a very very long time as I've never posted any pictures over the internet. Call me a technophobe in that regards.

 

The trouble I have with your argument is that is the only point of reference you have within SWTOR and it is largely based on a level of redundancy to save column space on the Social panel. They could have probably have had a Class column and an Advanced Class column.

 

All your other references in support of your argument come from outdated quotes (And when I say outdated I don't just mean old, I mean made by people who are no longer working on the game, at a time the game was in development flux and before a more recent (albeit still old quote) by a current dev) and largely supported by how another game defines class (your constant referenceing to World of Warcraft).

 

I get you are not in favour of allowing an AC swapping feature. But, would it be beyond the realms of possibility for you to use the terms SWTOR actually uses everywhere else in its documentation?

 

Would it not stand to reason that plenty of evidence has been posted, other than single dev comments, to support the idea of ACs being a fully fledged class?

 

Note, that does not mean evidence does not exist to the contrary. But I think it is important for each side to see that evidence has been posted to support BOTH views.

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Would it not stand to reason that plenty of evidence has been posted, other than single dev comments, to support the idea of ACs being a fully fledged class?

Only with regards to how another game, namely 'World of Warcraft' defines class.

If you truly want to define an AC as a fully fledged class strip out all of the shared abilities from the core class and see how well it fares.

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Highlighting mine.

 

I highlighted what is, IMO, the most important part.

 

I agree with you, Lord, that BW has not been as clear as they could have been with regards to AC's being different classes.

 

Short of actually having a dev pop in and clarify whether or not your AC is your class, there will be always room for "interpretation" (the ability to ignore anything which does not support whichever side you happen to support). IMO, even if a dev were to pop in and make a definitive statement one way or the other (for example, that your AC IS your class), we would likely still have some who would find a reason to dismiss that statement (that it was made by someone other than the current lead designer, for example).

 

Like you, I would like very much to see a gold post clarifying whether or not AC's are separate classes, or merely specs, as well as whether or not AC changes are even still on the wall of crazy. Given their staunch silence on this topic since that statement from over a year and half ago, though, I do not think that we will be seeing any such statement any time soon.

 

I personally hope you are right. I would even go so far as to make some changes to the current design to remove any doubt....

 

1) Reclassify base class as your "Role".

2) Rename Advanced Class to simply "Class".

3) Remove ALL references to your "role" when you choose your "class".

 

So your first 10 levels would be your "basic training", where you are classified as, say a "soldier", but then you receive your "MOS", where you become what you will be...Infantry, Combat Medic, Engineer, etc.

 

All folks in the Army are Soldiers, but not all are Infantry. This is how I see it, and how I think this game should present it.

 

In other words, all Melee Sith are Warriors, but not all are Marauders. So Warrior is your role, Marauder is your class.

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You'll be waiting for a very very long time as I've never posted any pictures over the internet. Call me a technophobe in that regards.

 

The trouble I have with your argument is that is the only point of reference you have within SWTOR and it is largely based on a level of redundancy to save column space on the Social panel. They could have probably have had a Class column and an Advanced Class column.

 

All your other references in support of your argument come from outdated quotes (And when I say outdated I don't just mean old, I mean made by people who are no longer working on the game, at a time the game was in development flux and before a more recent (albeit still old quote) by a current dev) and largely supported by how another game defines class (your constant referenceing to World of Warcraft).

 

I get you are not in favour of allowing an AC swapping feature. But, would it be beyond the realms of possibility for you to use the terms SWTOR actually uses everywhere else in its documentation?

 

IMO, your refusal to post such a screen shot has much more to do with the fact that it would CLEARLY list the classes as mercenary, powertech, operative, sniper, commando, vanguard, gunslinger, scoundrel, etc, than from any other reason.

 

IMO, you want to dismiss the last statement made by ANYONE associated with BW regarding AC's being DIFFERENT classes because that statement does not mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented. You want to use the excuse that the person who made the statement is no longer employed by BW as a lame attempt to justify your dismissal of the LAST WORD from ANY BW official that AC's are DIFFERENT classes. I offer the fact that NO CURRENT DEV or ANYONE CURRENTLY ASSOCIATED WITH BW has contradicted that last word regarding ACV's being DIFFERENT classes. That leaves that statement as the LAST word from BW regarding AC's being DIFFERENT CLASSES, regardless of who made the statement.

 

Even the statement that you cling to with such fervor does not make any claims that AC's are not different classes, or in any way contradict the statements made by DE.

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Only with regards to how another game, namely 'World of Warcraft' defines class.

If you truly want to define an AC as a fully fledged class strip out all of the shared abilities from the core class and see how well it fares.

 

Well, I think it fairs pretty well, but only so well as the horrible design allows it to in the first place. Meaning that the distinction SHOULD be better and more defined but is not.

 

So that can also lend credence to the idea that it is NOT a class.

 

I'm just trying to be fair here.

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I personally hope you are right. I would even go so far as to make some changes to the current design to remove any doubt....

 

1) Reclassify base class as your "Role".

2) Rename Advanced Class to simply "Class".

3) Remove ALL references to your "role" when you choose your "class".

 

So your first 10 levels would be your "basic training", where you are classified as, say a "soldier", but then you receive your "MOS", where you become what you will be...Infantry, Combat Medic, Engineer, etc.

 

All folks in the Army are Soldiers, but not all are Infantry. This is how I see it, and how I think this game should present it.

 

In other words, all Melee Sith are Warriors, but not all are Marauders. So Warrior is your role, Marauder is your class.

And that just brings a whole new level of confusion to the argument as 'role' is used to define your, well I can't use any other word here other than... Role. Be it Tank, Healer, ranged DPS or Melee DPS and that is set by the final specialisation you choose.

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I I offer the fact that NO CURRENT DEV or ANYONE CURRENTLY ASSOCIATED WITH BW has contradicted that last word regarding ACV's being DIFFERENT classes. That leaves that statement as the LAST word from BW regarding AC's being DIFFERENT CLASSES, regardless of who made the statement.

 

Actually, as I indicated before, that statement was contradicted by DE 4 months later when he said they were "roles" to offer variety in "playstyles".

 

He said "I don't see them as classes in the traditional sense, and we did not design them that way......" blah blah blah something to that effect, not verbatim as was posted in this thread. I can find the exact verbage if needed.

 

Your simply wrong about this point you keep making Ratajack...I'm not trying to undermine your valid point, only point out your error. I have already told you this a few times.

 

So, I think your right in stating that no current dev has said anything about what ACs represent, but to be accurate I think most of the original devs were pretty much full of it when talking about what it was to them...

 

Like I said before, it sounded to me like they were offering opinions, not reputable information.

Edited by LordArtemis
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And that just brings a whole new level of confusion to the argument as 'role' is used to define your, well I can't use any other word here other than... Role. Be it Tank, Healer, ranged DPS or Melee DPS and that is set by the final specialisation you choose.

 

Its a good point. Ill have to think about that one.

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IMO, your refusal to post such a screen shot has much more to do with the fact that it would CLEARLY list the classes as mercenary, powertech, operative, sniper, commando, vanguard, gunslinger, scoundrel, etc, than from any other reason.

We both know what the screenshot would look like, although I could go on at peak times at the weekend when there are more players transitioning through fleet from the starter planets and get a mix up of Bounty Hunter, Powertech, Mercenary, Imperial Agent, Operative, Sniper, Sith Warrior, Juggernaut, Marauder, Sith Inquisitor, Assassin, Sorcerer.

 

IMO, you want to dismiss the last statement made by ANYONE associated with BW regarding AC's being DIFFERENT classes because that statement does not mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented. You want to use the excuse that the person who made the statement is no longer employed by BW as a lame attempt to justify your dismissal of the LAST WORD from ANY BW official that AC's are DIFFERENT classes. I offer the fact that NO CURRENT DEV or ANYONE CURRENTLY ASSOCIATED WITH BW has contradicted that last word regarding ACV's being DIFFERENT classes. That leaves that statement as the LAST word from BW regarding AC's being DIFFERENT CLASSES, regardless of who made the statement.

I don't dismiss them out of hand but I do place them far lower in priority with regards current thoughts on game development. That's a matter of chronology and consistency rather than my opinion.

 

Even the statement that you cling to with such fervor does not make any claims that AC's are not different classes, or in any way contradict the statements made by DE.

No, it doesn't. But it does state that the current dev team have given AC swapping serious consideration and think it will likely be added some time in the games lifespan.

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I personally hope you are right. I would even go so far as to make some changes to the current design to remove any doubt....

 

1) Reclassify base class as your "Role".

2) Rename Advanced Class to simply "Class".

3) Remove ALL references to your "role" when you choose your "class".

 

So your first 10 levels would be your "basic training", where you are classified as, say a "soldier", but then you receive your "MOS", where you become what you will be...Infantry, Combat Medic, Engineer, etc.

 

All folks in the Army are Soldiers, but not all are Infantry. This is how I see it, and how I think this game should present it.

 

In other words, all Melee Sith are Warriors, but not all are Marauders. So Warrior is your role, Marauder is your class.

 

I'd like to see something clearer myself, but given the fact that all the voiceovers have already been recorded, I think that it would be problematic to change the references to the "story class" in those voiceovers to reflect the AC or "CLASS".

 

I think that they could make it clearer by making a definitive statement, and changing the creation process to reflect that your AC is your class. They could this, IMO, either by:

 

Choose Gender

Choose Race

Choose Story

Choose Class

--Upon reaching level 10, your character would become the chosen class and gain access to the

chosen class skills, and skill points for allocation.

Customize

 

Enter World

 

--OR--

 

Choose Gender

Choose Race

Choose Story

--List the two classes available, upon reaching level 10, to the selected story

-- Make it mandatory that a class be selected by level 15. This could be done by not enabling the ability to

queue for WZ's or FP's, or access any zones other than fleet and the particular character's starter planet

until a class is selected.

Customize

 

Enter World

 

These are obviously not the only two ways to do this, though.

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Again....they have called ACs "class designs" and have also called them "roles" and "playstyle choices". And DE said they were and were NOT classes in a span of 5 months.

 

I dont think they have a clue what ACs are supposed to represent, and I think they didn't know when they designed them.

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