My crit without anything else is 10.3

5% smuggler buff

1% from comp

0.52 - 0.56 from willpower and strength

5% base

Total for the crit rates that have nothing to do with me as a commando ~22%

What a bunch of gits, it makes no sense to not tell players this.

Yep, means a lot of people got the wrong relics. Quite a few in my guild. I only started checking these out recently because our sorc was using the internal one and the crit rate was terrible during a raid. So we've been testing lots of relics on different toons. I just don't know if they're behaving the same as always or not. If they are behaving the same it's just another reason why i never believe what people say and would rather test myself. And or have help testing as you were good enough to do Gyro.

Humor me and give me your crit rating. It's about the only stat i don't have. Trying to math this.

Well thats 272 daily comms I need for the relic I actually should use....

If I get the extra 14% crit I've been robbed of by having an elemental instead of an internal relic then my default attack should be even closer to 1kdps which is nice.

Humor me and give me your crit rating. It's about the only stat i don't have. Trying to math this.

You don't need it, already said my crit from crit is 10.3% but its 279 anyway.

Oh sorry Gyro i read that wrong. 10.3% from crit rating, thanks. At least you know which relic to get now dude.

Did another parse of the DG Internal relic. My tech crit was at 45%, range crit 41% and it was critting at 44.23%. http://www.torparse.com/a/59112 Getting some fairly consistent results here.

So glad i can keep vendoring these relics back so i can test them all. And i still need 300 more coms as i need 2 relics. Power clickee and Kinetic for me as gunnery. Might take me 2 months as i hate doing dailies.

Don't often see Gunnery with such high crit.

Ever since they removed the requirement to crit for recovering ammo most stacked power.

Wait, why is your tech 4 higher than ranged for gunnery?

Got the correct Cell on?

I switched cells and put some crit gear on to verify that the relic will crit higher than previously. Just trying to ensure it's tech and not ranged crit. Easier for you to do than me though. Guess i could respec as it's free now but i'm lazy.

Did another run with the DG Kinetic relic and i'm still at 45% tech crit. Relic crit at 44.79%. Ignore the 1st fight as i forgot to equip the damn thing. http://www.torparse.com/a/59177

Did another quick test after increasing my tech crit to 47.18% and the DG Kentic relic was critting at 47.37%

I think i'm done testing for now.

BTW the Dev Austin Peckenpaugh was wrong in the quote i previously posted. He said with 55% armor reduction of a dummy with 5814 armor would have a DR of 19.5%. I'll repost what he said then show my findings.

 

His math is off. He said with full armor reduction that the DR is 19.5%. This probably explains why he also said the damage while low was within 3% of his math which he attributed to RNG. He was wrong on both counts. The real DR based on my non crit hits with full 55% armor reduction vs an Ops dummy is 21.8%. The Kinetic Relic was non critting for 219 full 55% armor reduction. Here's the damage values i got based on armor reduction.

 

0% armor reduction=182 ( no nothing)

20% armor reduction=196 (no armor piercing cell but using a +5 stack armor debuff)

35% armor reduction=207 (armor piercing cell only)

43% armor reduction=212 (armor piercing cell+2 stack armor debuff)

51% armor reduction=216 (armor piercing cell+4 stack armor debuff)

55% armor reduction=219 (armor piercing cell+5 stack armor debuff)

 

Note it only takes 1 grav round to apply a 2 stack armor debuff which exceeds the internal relic's damage. Note also that some people were complaining that there was no difference in damage between a 4 stack and a 5 stack when using any of our damage abilities. I believe these were mostly Mercs though. The above clearly shows that they were wrong.

 

219/280=78.2%

100-78.2=21.8% DR

 

The DR with 55% armor reduction is 21.8% and not 19.5% vs an Ops dummy. Using the correct math and his post with tracer missle damage you get 1804*.782=1411. Which is only off by 1 and approx a 0.1% difference.

First, nice posting =)

secondly the buff on you and the armor debuff on the enemy wouldn't stack additivly. (1-0.2)*(1-0.35) = 0.52 trasnlate to only 48% of the enemy armor will be bypassed. Moreover does armor have a diminishing return as well, thus the points you cut giving less armor than the points still there.

However, the kinetic damage proc relic is still better than the internal procc by about ~8-9 dmg/procc.

After all, I would like to thank you for your work regarding the different mentioned crit results!

Here's my own confirmation that the internal relic is the correct one for troopers:

http://www.torparse.com/a/62743/time/1354426602/1354427872

Trying to view the entire 35m fight results in a timeout from the server so its cropped.

Probably.

Basically what you are missing out on is about 15% crit if you have the wrong relic.

So if i happened to buy the wrong relic and its too late to vendor should I just stick with 2 Warheros till I can buy the right one? Was going to run 1 proc 1 WH because I'm lazy

at least one person has been refunded their coms by submitting a ticket. I am still waitign to hear on my ticket.

Huh, might try that myself.

There is after all zero information on the relics to say that half of them are gimped for your class.

Hello Commando's!. Great thread. Thanks for ironing this issue out with nice data. We've had a similar dicussion on the sorc forums.

I have been denied a refund for my relic because too much time has passed.

I have recreated a ticket and make a thread in the customer support:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5522878#post5522878

Please post there if you've been denied so we can get some attention to this issue.

So, After all this (great) discussion, do can we have a clear and simple post as to which 2 relics are BIS for Gunnery Commandos in PVE ops?

I think it's the Boundless Ages and the Kinetic Tempest, but i want to be clear before i buy my second one

Thanks,

Wes

I'm kinda just looking for the answer too. On my Merc I'm running with the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages and The Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest.

I did lots of reading about them before I made my choice. Today however another Merc who's opionion I respect says that he was putting up 100k less dmg vs identically geared Mercs on the Tanks in Nim EC 16 man using the Tempest. Said I was a fail train

I'd like to know so I can put this one to bed. My toon is BIS other than that in every slot.

Thanks for the discussion and the information.

I'm kinda just looking for the answer too. On my Merc I'm running with the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages and The Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest.

 

I did lots of reading about them before I made my choice. Today however another Merc who's opionion I respect says that he was putting up 100k less dmg vs identically geared Mercs on the Tanks in Nim EC 16 man using the Tempest. Said I was a fail train

 

I'd like to know so I can put this one to bed. My toon is BIS other than that in every slot.

Thanks for the discussion and the information.

NiM EC 16m tanks each DPS has to do about 600k damage, their share of the 2.5m on each tank plus adds.

A proc relic adds up to about 20k damage over the whole fight.

Now a proc relic is 47 power as well as the proc damage effect.

WH is 113 or the very new EWH is 120 power

If he thinks that 66 or 73 power MINUS the proc damage effect is 100k damage more when total damage is 600k he's insane.

I've done NiM 8m tanks with the wrong proc relic (elemental instead of internal) on and total proc damage came to 15k out of 630k (plus whatever 47 power adds up to).

So, After all this (great) discussion, do can we have a clear and simple post as to which 2 relics are BIS for Gunnery Commandos in PVE ops?

 

I think it's the Boundless Ages and the Kinetic Tempest, but i want to be clear before i buy my second one

 

Thanks,

Wes

You can see the bis relics in the first post, kinetic proc and power activation.

**EDIT: FINDINGS***

 

From the discussion in this thread, this is what I believe the current BiS relics are for gunnery commandos:

DG kinetic proc relic *Kinetic proc uses tech crit chance while energy proc uses force crit chance

DG power activation relic

Thanks for figuring this out and summarizing it well

If I don't want a clickable power relic, what's best to accompany the DG kinetic proc?

The Matrix Cube, or the war hero passive power relic?

Thanks

Dudes, I wanna thank you a lot for your hard work and this civil, troll-free thread. This is rare and precious

If I may contribute, I'd like you to consider that a gunnery commando, due to it's relatively low rate of fire, is not really suited for a 30% proc relic, imho. Statistics aside, I've been bullying the training dummy quite a few times these days, only to realize the DG relic only procs roughly 40-50 times on a 6min fight. Maybe I'm unlucky with the RNG, but that gives me only 11-13k damage output. This is the kind of parse I got with an EWH +120 power and a DG proc relic :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/3bec6f32-b0a2-42f1-aa4c-f36b6431f65f/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

As you can see, 360/42 makes a proc every 8.57secs, whereas my DoT specced guildies (balance shadow and hybrid GS) have it really close to 6 secs. I rarely got significantly better results, so I decided to switch to EWH/clickable DG power relic for a way better damage output. This is what I get (min-maxed full 61 with 3 63 armorings and 5 63 mods) :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/5a56ecad-927b-48b5-9f01-aec9990cb4a1/overview#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

(of course i have way better crit ratio on the second parse, but nonetheless i'm consistently over 1800 dps on a 6-6.5min run now)

First you compared a DG power on use relic vs the DG kinetic proc damage relic. We are not comparing those against each other. Equip the DG on use power relic for both test. Then try comparing a WH or better yet an EWH power relic vs the DG Kinetic proc relic. You also don't have enough samples to really compare. As you said you did crit quite a bit more on one of the test vs the other. In fact signifficantly higher. I know i can parse an ops dummy at just under 1500dps to just under 2000dps without changing any gear. With 1988dps being my best so far. Average is approx 1800dps fyi and i seldom if ever use adrenals when testing.

I well understand that for gunnery commandos the DG proc relic will proc less for us than perhaps every class and spec. For me personally i do slightly worse than you with it proccing at approx every 9 seconds. However if you do the math even at every 9 seconds it still beats out the EWH power relic. But it's so close that it really doesn't matter which you use.

Personally if i PvPed more i'd probably just go with 2 EWH power relics. I'd rather have steady power and a more consistent dps. Although swapping in the DG power on use relic i like as well. I currently use a DG on use power relic and *gasp* a matrix cube. I needed the crit more than the power else i'd be using my old champion power relic.

So long as i can still be at the top of the damage and dps charts for an Ops i'm ok using whatever feels comfortable to me. I doubt i'll ever use the damage proc relics even if they are very slightly better. But who knows i may gave in and do the dailies to get it. I just don't feel it's needed to grind out dailies for 2 relics when 1 is fine really. And obviously i hate grinding dailies so i'm a bit prejudiced here.

However the BIS list does stay as is as it's correct currently no matter which we actually use or prefer.

First you compared a DG power on use relic vs the DG kinetic proc damage relic. We are not comparing those against each other. Equip the DG on use power relic for both test. Then try comparing a WH or better yet an EWH power relic vs the DG Kinetic proc relic. You also don't have enough samples to really compare. As you said you did crit quite a bit more on one of the test vs the other. In fact signifficantly higher. I know i can parse an ops dummy at just under 1500dps to just under 2000dps without changing any gear. With 1988dps being my best so far. Average is approx 1800dps fyi and i seldom if ever use adrenals when testing.

Sorry, my goal wasn't to show off, and I shouldn't have linked the second parse . I simply wanted to point at the very low proc rate and therefore damage output on gunnery, while a balance shadow (for example) would get significantly (something like 18k, I can ask a friend of mine for some parse logs if you don't believe me ) better results.