Well stated about the troll comment but you lost it when you self righteously slander the rest of the forums as narrow minded... well played .

 

But more seriously at this point clearly we agree gear counts. Where we disagree is what follows. As I pointed out in another thread there is no bolster for operations... why should there be bolster for PvP?

 

The simple answer is there should not be some buff for undergeared sorts to do operations. There should be a base set of gear be it PvP or PvE. From there on the gear scales but only marginally.

 

Now you may disagree and that is fine, but please address both the part about bolster needing to be more refined for PvP (because clearly it is way off) as well as the counter that of a bolster for running ops .

Maybe i can answer the part on the no bolster for operations:

Let's say i decide to pve. I can access the pve content at many levels, be it HM flashpoints, SM operation or something harder. I can make a decision based on my gear, and be sure that what i'm going to face is doable with what i'm wearing.

Let's say i decide to pvp. The only way to get into pvp is by joining wzs. The gear level required for a warzone is not a fixed value, but depends on the average equip level of the other 15 participants. I have no way to know it beforehand, putting myself at the risk of quite a negative experience and possibly ruining my unfortunate team mates experience as well. This is why when entering pvp having temporarily granted an average level gear is not a bad feature.

Hope that makes sense.

TLDR: In pve you choose what you challenge, in pvp you don't.

TLDR: In pve you choose what you challenge, in pvp you don't.

Those are some fair points but in fact we do have different levels... warzones and ranked warzones.

And before we go on understand I have been in a guild with server firsts and some ranked world firsts. So yes I understand my fully geared BiS PvE char runs rampant in a simple fps. And as I move up to operation level things are not so easy and if undergeared... I get steam rolled.

Now *no* I do not want the same harsh standards in PvP because as I pointed out you have some fair points. We do want everyone to be able to compete in warzones as wipes in warzones are not fun for anyone. But we had a solution pre-2.0... We had recruit gear.

Give everyone basic recruit gear. Then scale gear... partisan... conqueror... but only marginally. No one has issues that the guys doing ops have better gear, they earned it. Why do we have issues with full time Pvpers having better gear. the truth is most people do not. we just want the gap to be less severe. So yes the gap needs to be narrowed, but wonky buffs applied subjectively and inconsitently does not seem to be the best answer.

How does that sound?

TLDR: In pve you choose what you challenge, in pvp you don't.

Those are some fair points but in fact we do have different levels... warzones and ranked warzones.

And before we go on understand I have been in a guild with server firsts and some ranked world firsts. So yes I understand my fully geared BiS PvE char runs rampant in a simple fps. And as I move up to operation level things are not so easy and if undergeared... I get steam rolled.

Now *no* I do not want the same harsh standards in PvP because as I pointed out you have some fair points. We do want everyone to be able to compete in warzones as wipes in warzones are not fun for anyone. But we had a solution pre-2.0... We had recruit gear.

Give everyone basic recruit gear. Then scale gear... partisan... conqueror... but only marginally. No one has issues that the guys doing ops have better gear, they earned it. Why do we have issues with full time Pvpers having better gear. the truth is most people do not. we just want the gap to be less severe. So yes the gap needs to be narrowed, but wonky buffs applied subjectively and inconsitently does not seem to be the best answer.

How does that sound?

hes not a troll. he speaks the truth. it takes a couple of days to get full partisan gear. their is no need for bolster at 55. it has destroyed the game. people who are pvping without partisan gear are obviously not interested in pvping very much or they would have the gear. getting rolled for a couple of days after hitting 55 is not a big deal. they should remove bolster from endgame because right now it is a mess and any changes they do is just going to keep making it worse.

i do not completly agree to you, there are some people that do not lvl primarily by pvp to obtain the needed number of Wz-coms to achieve most partisan items when reaching 55 - but the bolster system could fix that easily if implemented with a bit of sense. the lvl 55 bracket bolster should be resticted to items below lvl 60 aka as lvl equip - those items should be bolstered to pvp equip 1 or two lvl below partisan, every item with an itemlvl of 60+ should not be bolstered at all. problem of pve equip beeing to strong in pve would be solved by that as it would not gain any expertise. if a pure pve´ler wants to pvp he has to strip and participate naked with bolstered stats that are below partisan.

only problem left would be pve hilts/barrels as pvp items cant compete to them maybe the pvp weapons should be increased in lvl(as they have been in 1.7(?)) but still remain below the second pve tier. that way the higher delve stats do not overwhelm expertise.

In pve you choose what you challenge, in pvp you don't.

This is an excellent point and really reinforces my opinion that a better matchmaking / ladder system would be preferable to the more complex attempts to bolster people we're seeing at the moment.

If I start playing Starcraft 2 and I've never played before then I am put against other noobs. If I was put against a Diamond / Master level players it wouldn't be fun for either of us since the match would probably be over in under 3-4 minutes. I wouldn't have an opportunity to get better since every match would be such a crushing defeat. Most probably, I'd give up pretty quickly unless I was a total masochist. By playing other new / bad players, I'd at least have a chance to improve.

Last night I was in a Huttball match where a Level 55 player asked how to pass the ball. He was a Commando with the healing cell active and managed to do 0 healing. It's great that guy has decided to try PVP'ing but it's not really fair that the opposing team could well have 4-5+ players with Valor 100.

Ideally, every single match should be competitive - i.e. both sides should have a reasonable chance to win when the match starts. In non-ranked PVP at the moment, I'd say less that maybe 40% of matches truly fit this bill. The rest of the matches are crushing defeats or wins, depending on who is playing.

A side effect of a more balanced system would be longer queue times for very strong premades (as it would take longer to find a suitably strong opposing team). But that's not necessarily a bad thing - you want a faster queue, go solo. It wouldn't stop casual players queueing with their friends, and obviously would have no impact on ranked warzones (where a different matchmaking system is needed).

 

How does that sound?

I disagree on the different levels for pvp, rwz are played by a really small minority of players. But that doesn't matter, we both agree that some kind of "bolster" system is needed, be it the recruit gear or what we have now or a completely new solution.

I see it this way:

BW initial try was with the recruit gear. That solution failed. This may be due to different reasons, but i think that it simply was not sustainable in the long run. With the pvp gears moving forward you constantly had to increase the stats on the recruit gear, to keep an acceptable gear gap between veterans and new comers. Since as you noted there is no such thing as a "recruit" gear for PvE, then you had conflicts between the 2 systems, where the recruit gear was progressively getting better and better in the pve side. By the end of the first year it was common to run HM in recruit mk2 gear, making tionese 100% useless. In the end tionese was made free.

There is also a second problem, the recruit gear has to be of blue quality, else pref and free players will join wzs in quest greenies. The recruit mk2 already pushed hard on a blue item stat budget, an eventual mk3 would have been blue only in name, making quite a confusion for new players.

The recruit gear solution is tied to an item, so it has to respect item restrictions and conflicts with other items. With the gear reset of 2.0 they took the chance to implement a new system which is free of that restrictions. Is it a good idea? I don't know.

Time will tell if this will work, what i know right now is that the previous system was not sustainable, so a new one is getting implemented, and with it comes a phase of suffering while it gets ironed out. We are actually in that phase. I don't want to defend this version of the bolster system, but i'm willing to give a bit of time to stabilize.

hes not a troll. he speaks the truth. it takes a couple of days to get full partisan gear. their is no need for bolster at 55.

Ah yes, because people being pwned for 'a few days' is an acceptable learning curve for PVP..

He is a troll. Bolster is not garbage, in most situations it works completely good, but there are still bugs and unexpected features that need to be worked out. And we being humans, especially geeks, have a way of always finding the quickest way to success. So the best way to test it is, actually, on Live. The amount of bugs with clear and multiple reports being spotted these last 8 days since early access will be a lot higher than in the same time on the PTS.

The system is close, but not there yet. But it is far from garbage. In general, it levels the playing field. At least a lot more than it was pre 2.0. And pre 2.0 PVP was a game of haves and have-nots. And for the haves, that was fine! for the have-nots, it was a horrible experience.

That is a well reasoned reply. You and I might not see this thing eye to eye but we agree on some basic concepts and simply differ on implemetation.

Bottom line gear matters.

Stated goal reduce the gap between top flite PvP and beginners.

You are very correct on one point however... we will see how bolster works out.

Cheers !!

hes not a troll. he speaks the truth. it takes a couple of days to get full partisan gear. their is no need for bolster at 55. it has destroyed the game. people who are pvping without partisan gear are obviously not interested in pvping very much or they would have the gear. getting rolled for a couple of days after hitting 55 is not a big deal. they should remove bolster from endgame because right now it is a mess and any changes they do is just going to keep making it worse.

Spoken like someone who wants to make sure there are always a few fresh 55s around to squash like bugs so you can feel good about yourself.

BW is implementing a stupid system and they need to abandon bolster. The only requirement for PvP should be PvP gear. No more bolster!!! Useless systems for people who don't even PvP.

Please, Bioware. Listen to this man.

Thus why I'm not even PvP'ing, haven't done a 55 WZ but once.

 

Never thought I'd say it, but I think I'll just stick to PvE'ing and leveling alts.

and of course, you blew off the double exp weekends last month

although supposedly, the current bolster isn't half bad for pre-55. They should just stick to that honestly.

Ah yes, because people being pwned for 'a few days' is an acceptable learning curve for PVP..

 

He is a troll. Bolster is not garbage, in most situations it works completely good, but there are still bugs and unexpected features that need to be worked out. And we being humans, especially geeks, have a way of always finding the quickest way to success. So the best way to test it is, actually, on Live. The amount of bugs with clear and multiple reports being spotted these last 8 days since early access will be a lot higher than in the same time on the PTS.

 

The system is close, but not there yet. But it is far from garbage. In general, it levels the playing field. At least a lot more than it was pre 2.0. And pre 2.0 PVP was a game of haves and have-nots. And for the haves, that was fine! for the have-nots, it was a horrible experience.

You mean just like people who want to walk into an operation undergeared? I'd wager that's just as horrible an experience.

So let's just level both playing fields and call it a day

Ah yes, because people being pwned for 'a few days' is an acceptable learning curve for PVP..

 

Well, getting pwned for weeks appears to be an acceptable learning curve for PVE (read: PVE progression raids), so i think PVPers can manage a few days.

Well, getting pwned for weeks appears to be an acceptable learning curve for PVE (read: PVE progression raids), so i think PVPers can manage a few days.

Getting pwned in a "working as intended" PvE raid in one thing; getting pwned due to "unintended and broken mechanics" in PvP is another.

Your analogy is bad.

Ahahah actually, I think you need to give that guy a break.

Bolster is kinda garbage.

-PvE > PvP

-Inflated Stats

-No requirement for any PvP gear at all

-Too easy to exploit

The first one bothers me, though I'd prefer it if everyone were 100% equal, but that'snot going to happen. Number two is annoying, Number three I disagree with you there, but number four is definately spot on.

Imo 55 bolster should be removed. If partisan really can be obtained as quickly as I've seen (2days?) then I think no bolster would be best for pvp. Mind you, only 55, lowbies (now redefined as <55) would still have it, but also no exp on their gear.

Not hard to implement at all.

Ahahah actually, I think you need to give that guy a break.

Bolster is kinda garbage.

-PvE > PvP

-Inflated Stats

-No requirement for any PvP gear at all

-Too easy to exploit

Why do you keep Fez in your guild?

Why can't bw just give the same base stats (for each class) to everyone in their lowbie group. That would make it fair.

With bolster people are just trying to play it and you see some people with way higher stats than others (the opposite goal of bolster) and they didn't even earn these stats. They just got lucky or are abusing the system.

This system is beyond dumb. Just give everyone in a lowbie wz lvl range(in a class) the same base stats and these stats can only be influenced by talent points. This would make for great and fair lowbie pvp. It would also give new people a great introduction to pvp before the 55 gear grind.

One thing I have learned from managing projects is to not over complicate things. If a simple method works then use the simple method. Come on BW.