DISCLAIMER: This is a PvP focused post, however the changes suggested will in no way affect PvE output.

 

When 2.0 fnally hits the stands in two weeks, Veng specced Jugs will have a large issue forth coming. Chilling Scream costs 2 Rage, and with no talent to reduce its cost available to Veng specced Jugs, Chilling Scream will cost 1/6th or our resource.

 

Why is this such a horrible thing?

Because our two "big" abilities (Shatter and Impale) require a 4 meter range and are uni-directional, not to mention they are the key elements to our rotation. Without a reliable slow on the target, uptime is severely hampered, and a large drop in DPS is seen. This needs to change to ensure Veng's spot in PvP come 2.0

 

Suggestions?

I've always said, dont complain about something if you have nothing to offer as a solution. So I have two.

 

The first:

Move Sundering throw to T7 and replace Seething Hatred (useless talent all around), in the T6 spot where Sundering Throw was, move Unstoppable to and untie it from Shien Form. This serves several functions, but the biggest being this: While I love Shien form, it is necessary to switch between Shien and Soresu from time to time to guard people when needed or to run the ball or even just to survive defense phase of Void Star. Tieing Unstoppable (One of our HUGE survivability options) to Shien Makes switching stances a bad idea, IMO. Moving it to T6 makes Hybrids unviable still, but alows Veng the use of Soresu.

 

So what do we put in Unstoppable's place?

Fueled By Hate

Rank 2/2

While in Shien form your speed is increased by 15%/30%

 

This will help our uptime without the use of a massive resource drain slow, and you loose the speed when switching to Soresu. It also means we can combat the massive amount of slows being thrown around in PvP, which is another current Live detriment to our up time.

 

My second Suggestion:

Move the abilities as stated in my first, because lets be honest, it makes sense.

Where unstoppable was insert this ability:

Gripping Force

Rank 2/2

While in Shien Form an enemy who is affected by one of your bleed effects has thier movement slowed by 25%/50%

 

This has the same affect as the first, however the slow can be cleansed, and ties the slow to your your bleeds. This is the route Bioware should go if they feel a 30% speed increase is a little to much, but keeps the elements of uptime that many of us seek.

 

I wont lie, I would prefer the first to the second, however Ill take what i can get honestly. 30% speed increase it better utility, but 50% slow is strong and keeps uptime on the target (remember that 4 meter range?).

 

I implore Bioware to consider these changes to put Veng back into a primary DPS catagory.

I agree that Vengeance needs a boost in mobility in a post-2.0 environment. On live, Vengeance has enough mobility. However, with almost every other spec and class getting mobility boosts, Vengeance needs something to keep up. I've always thought that a 15% passive speed boost would fit Vengeance perfectly. I believe that the ideal solution will involve adding in a passive speed boost and adding either a ranged root/snare to one of Vengeance's attacks or effects, or adding in a mechanic to reliably reset or reduce the CD of Force Charge.

 

Seething Hatred is indeed a useless talent for any high end content. Vengeance's role is to be a resilient primary DPS that puts heavy pressure on important targets. This requires it to be in the middle of a main fight constantly. So, it will very rarely get out of combat, especially when using taunts like you're suppose to. I think BW's intent was to allow Vengeance some sort of improved mobility with this talent, but failed to understand how little it would be used in group fights.

 

Passive Speed Boost:

Like I said, I've always thought that a 15% passive speed boost would fit Vengeance perfectly. It is the only middle tree melee DPS spec that does not get a passive speed boost. Carnage, Deception, Concealment, and Advanced Prototype all get speed boosts. And they still have ranged roots or snares to compliment that. Vengeance has neither. I believe that a passive speed boost needs to happen. It would fit perfectly with Vengeance, as Vengeance relies on melee attacks more than most specs. Adding in a 15% speed boost effect to Deadly Reprisal would work out great, as it is already tied to Shien form.

 

Seething Hatred Rework:

What BioWare could do with Seething Hatred is tie a Force Charge and Saber throw reset to one of our procs. So, Seething Hatred would now reset Force Charge, Saber Throw, and possibly reduce CD on Enrage whenever we proc Ravage reset. Alternatively, the effect could be tied to whenever we proc free Vicious Throw.

 

The first option would give us Force Charge when we want to use it again, right when we have another Force Charge ready. This option would flow beautifully with the playstyle of Vengeance, and make it a seriously dangerous threat in warzones that opponents can't ignore anymore. However, given the fact that it would give us more frequent Unstoppables, it might be a bit much. Personally, I think it would be fine considering how many classes and specs have root breaks now.

 

The second option would give us Force Charge again in situations when we're being kited (the proc can activate off of bleeds). However, with a 20s ICD, it may not happen as much as we'd like. Still, it would help in a lot of different situations, and helps us stay on targets and do our jobs. It would also make sure we have the 10% damage boost from using Force Charge available for Vicious Throw.

 

Ranged Root or Snare:

Another possibility is adding in some sort of ranged root or snare to Vengeance. The best candidate would be Force Scream. It is our main mid-ranged attack. Tying a 2s root to it would help us stay on target nicely and add even more group utility. However, a root may be too strong. Instead, adding a 50% snare to the bleed effect from Force Scream might be a more balanced approach. Another option is have Sundering Throw lower Saber Throw's CD even more to either 15s or 20s and tie a 9-12s snare to it in addition to the sunder stack.

 

Summary:

Vengeance is finally in a good place damage wise for PVP, and has a lot of good utility to bring to a team. However, every other class getting great mobility boosts while Vengeance gets none will make life difficult for Vengeance players. Only the very best Vengeance players will be able to stay on targets reliably if no changes are made. To help rectify this, BioWare needs to add a passive speed boost above everything else. There's no question about this. It needs to happen. Even with the speed boost, Vengeance should have another tool to be able to stay on target. It can be a Force Charge reset, a ranged root, a snare added to our damage rotation, or something else that hasn't been brought up yet.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Andrew_Past

This is good feedback guys, and I think you're hitting on some relevant points. We're going to look into this.

 

Can you come over to the Sorc thread since none of our feedback was addresed? Thanks man!

 

As to the OP, just play rage in PVP. It's too strong to pass up.

Agree, no one is going to use Seething Hatred, i would like to have the marauder talent there that remove force charge distance to 0 meters.

This is good feedback guys, and I think you're hitting on some relevant points. We're going to look into this.

 

While unexpected, the response is appreciated.

 

Over all when it comes to class balance, nerfs arent necessarily always the option, most times a small buff to an underpowered class or spec will solve most issues.

 

Can you come over to the Sorc thread since none of our feedback was addresed? Thanks man!

 

As to the OP, just play rage in PVP. It's too strong to pass up.

 

I feel your pain as to the Sorc. My main is a Sorc PvP healer, and while I am saving final judgement for the drop of 2.0, I was unimpressed with the PTS. However they do see our feedback, even if they dont respond.

 

As to rage, I find it un-rewarding, and sub par in objective play. Veng is an under rated spec, that when played well will kill a target faster than rage (this assumes a skilled opposing player). The small tweaks presented above by myself and Andrew_Past would put Veng inline to earn a rated spot.

That's exciting to see a developer notice what we all agree is probably the only problem with vengence; mobility. I don't think the chilling scream cost of 2 rage is that bad, we only need to pop it once or twice at the most as it is now. But with everyone else's mobility in the new patch it's nice to see we are being thought of constructively. I had a feeling this would happen as a matter of fact. This is a popular class, it can't stay behind the curve to long.

I second the OP and his concerns. Anyone who PVPs often will have noticed just how many roots and snares are involved in your typical match.

 

Chilling scream is literally our only slow. while other classes have 2,3 or even 4 ways to slow a target, we get one, and at an expensive price in comparison to a spec requiring competant resource management.

 

It gets even worse when we are on a map like huttball where we need to guard the ball carrier. obviously we will not be in shien form, so now just to do one shatter, impale, scream combo it would literally cost an entire rage bar. if we use chilling scream even once, we could only get off 2/3 of our main abilities.

 

I personally like the suggestion of the slow being tied to our bleeds. even a ranged class like snipers/gunslingers get a very potent slow attached to their bleeds and they are ranged, they dont have to be inside of 4m for anything they do.

 

please give us a way to stay on target better =[ /signed

I'm in full agreement with the OP that veng jugs need a slow that's more efficient than chilling scream, but both ideas presented by the OP will negatively affect PvE builds.

 

Unstoppable is the only filler in the lower tree that has applications for PvE, it's basically Cloak of Pain for juggernauts. It's useful in 3/4 fights in nightmare EC and 3/5 fights in HM TFB, and will be useful in multiple encounters in the new operation S&V. Moving it higher and adding a new skill in it's spot means that PvE jug dps would have to choose between Unstoppable and Deafening Defense while being forced to pick up filler talents that have no real application in an Operation setting.

 

My suggestion would be to move Stagger up to T7, put Unyielding in T1, and make a 3-point skill in T2

{Crippling Wounds: Your bleed effects have a 33/66/100% chance to slow the target's movement speed by 50%}

that would fill in the gap where PvE jugs take accuracy. This way you would have the option of taking 1 point in said skill for the utility and still taking the other PvP related skills, or forgoing the additional rage generation for even greater utility, being able to consistently slow 3 targets at the same time with your bleeds. Meanwhile PvE jugs won't lose their survivability.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Pasture

I'm in full agreement with the OP that veng jugs need a slow that's more efficient than chilling scream, but both ideas presented by the OP will negatively affect PvE builds.

 

Unstoppable is the only filler in the lower tree that has applications for PvE, it's basically Cloak of Pain for juggernauts. It's useful in 3/4 fights in nightmare EC and 3/5 fights in HM TFB, and will be useful in multiple encounters in the new operation S&V. Moving it higher and adding a new skill in it's spot means that PvE jug dps would have to choose between Unstoppable and Deafening Defense while being forced to pick up filler talents that have no real application in an Operation setting.

 

My suggestion would be to move Stagger up to T7, put Unyielding in T1, and make a 3-point skill in T2

{Crippling Wounds: Your bleed effects have a 33/66/100% chance to slow the target's movement speed by 50%}

that would fill in the gap where PvE jugs take accuracy. This way you would have the option of taking 1 point in said skill for the utility and still taking the other PvP related skills, or forgoing the additional rage generation for even greater utility, being able to consistently slow 3 targets at the same time with your bleeds. Meanwhile PvE jugs won't lose their survivability.

 

except suffering rage generation isnt very good when even with shien form, using shatter impale and scream in succession is 9/12 ragepoints. sunder only builds 7 if talented, and throw builds 2 on a 25second cd. that means alot more auto attacking. nty

While I see your point about PvE jugs (the slow tied to bleeds being a filler), you can easily "skip" which ever talent happens to be in Unstoppable place and still progress up the tree, without negatively affecting PvE.

Example is this build here, which brings you to Impale by skipping Unstoppable:

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/juggernaut/227/?build=000000000000000000000000000000000302302121020130010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

 

Now, most people will spend those points into Unstoppable as well as everything already taken. So, in PvE you subtract 2 points from T3, but later add them in at T6 for a net loss of 0 points. Also, mentioned in the shuffle of the talent tree is to untie Unstoppable to Shien, but put it so high Hybrids wont benefit. This means Unstoppable is beneficial in PvE still as it was, but allows a PvP Veng Jug to swtich stances and retain the tree's iconic ability.

 

As well, moving the abilities around as my suggestion states actually net a -2 point loss for PvP Veng Jufs, but it is a price I will pay for slows on bleed, or passive speed boost tied to Shien.

 

I appreciate the feedback everyone! If I have missed something, or misunderstood it, please let me know.

Imo the best way to do this would be to add either a passive 15% speed boost to Deadly reprisal (as andrew stated earlier) , or to rework Seething hatred so it addtionally gives our bleeds a slow, or do both . By doing it this way then there is no need for any replacements of talents. Tbh tanks is just gimping themselfs if they pick up shien and unstoppable with all the new nice changes in the immortal tree.

 

One talent im pretty dissapointed in is our sundering throw, that talent is kinda lame for a t6 talent. Add a root to it additionally to what it already does.

Imo the best way to do this would be to add either a passive 15% speed boost to Deadly reprisal (as andrew stated earlier) , or to rework Seething hatred so it addtionally gives our bleeds a slow, or do both . By doing it this way then there is no need for any replacements of talents. Tbh tanks is just gimping themselfs if they pick up shien and unstoppable with all the new nice changes in the immortal tree.

 

One talent im pretty dissapointed in is our sundering throw, that talent is kinda lame for a t6 talent. Add a root to it additionally to what it already does.

 

I understand a tank picking up Shien for Unstoppable is a big no no, however is restricts Full Veng specced Jugs from switching to Soresu in certain situations because we loose our iconic ability, hence the tree rework that I presented. I know it a little more work for the Devs than they may want to do, but rewarding an underplayed spec with a little more utility is a good trade off for the time spent I believe.

 

As well, a root tied to Saber throw would only be good in my opinon if the range on saber throw were reduced to 0m to 30m, but that would effectively negate the PvE set bonus, which would then have to be reworked. Otherwise it is too situational since we are a 4m range class. But that is my opinion. Im not saying its a bad idea, I quite like it, but the extra work that would have to be put in by the Dev team to make it more than situationally useful might be a little more than they are willing.

 

Lets start with a small buff first (either slow attached to bleeds or passive speed boost as well as the tree rework) and go from there.

While I see your point about PvE jugs (the slow tied to bleeds being a filler), you can easily "skip" which ever talent happens to be in Unstoppable place and still progress up the tree, without negatively affecting PvE.

Example is this build here, which brings you to Impale by skipping Unstoppable:

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/juggernaut/227/?build=000000000000000000000000000000000302302121020130010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

 

Now, most people will spend those points into Unstoppable as well as everything already taken. So, in PvE you subtract 2 points from T3, but later add them in at T6 for a net loss of 0 points. Also, mentioned in the shuffle of the talent tree is to untie Unstoppable to Shien, but put it so high Hybrids wont benefit. This means Unstoppable is beneficial in PvE still as it was, but allows a PvP Veng Jug to swtich stances and retain the tree's iconic ability.

 

As well, moving the abilities around as my suggestion states actually net a -2 point loss for PvP Veng Jufs, but it is a price I will pay for slows on bleed, or passive speed boost tied to Shien.

 

I appreciate the feedback everyone! If I have missed something, or misunderstood it, please let me know.

 

Only issue with that is the points you spent in t2 to bypass the Unstopable "slot" is in a talent that is virtually worthless to PvE juggs...most serious ones simply don't take it. So teh concern still exists...and is a real concern. Talents for PvE juggs in those tiers are very tight, and we don't have much flexibility.

 

But I like the idea of the slow. what about simply replacing Pooled hatred with the slow? or perhaps adding the slow to it....PH has always felt very much like an underwhelming talent from a PvE perspective. adding the slow to it would keep our talents for PvE where we need them, and allow for the root at the same time. and far simpler then juggling various talents around on the tree.

 

Unstoppable being tied to Shien is a different topic, but im neutral either way on that one. But I'm firmly in support of my PvP brethren getting what they need.

 

Heck, they could kill the accuracy trait for all I care. I rarely spec into it even for my low level juggs anymore. level capped juggs have enough accuracy in their gear to not worry about it. seems like both of those traits are open game for tinkering with IMO.

 

EDIT: looking at the current tree, here's an idea: switch Accuracy with Vengeance (reduces force scream/impale CD). it's not an OP skill to have that low (full benefit only happens if you take impale late in the tree), and then drop accuracy for the slow. or meld them into one talent in vengeance's place. then add the speed boost to Pooled hatred. speed boost is a "mostly" PvP skill (though the movement can benefit PvE a bit).

Edited April 3, 2013 by Elyxin

Only issue with that is the points you spent in t2 to bypass the Unstopable "slot" is in a talent that is virtually worthless to PvE juggs...most serious ones simply don't take it. So teh concern still exists...and is a real concern. Talents for PvE juggs in those tiers are very tight, and we don't have much flexibility.

 

But I like the idea of the slow. what about simply replacing Pooled hatred with the slow? or perhaps adding the slow to it....PH has always felt very much like an underwhelming talent from a PvE perspective. adding the slow to it would keep our talents for PvE where we need them, and allow for the root at the same time. and far simpler then juggling various talents around on the tree.

 

Unstoppable being tied to Shien is a different topic, but im neutral either way on that one. But I'm firmly in support of my PvP brethren getting what they need.

 

Heck, they could kill the accuracy trait for all I care. I rarely spec into it even for my low level juggs anymore. level capped juggs have enough accuracy in their gear to not worry about it. seems like both of those traits are open game for tinkering with IMO.

 

EDIT: looking at the current tree, here's an idea: switch Accuracy with Vengeance (reduces force scream/impale CD). it's not an OP skill to have that low (full benefit only happens if you take impale late in the tree), and then drop accuracy for the slow. or meld them into one talent in vengeance's place. then add the speed boost to Pooled hatred. speed boost is a "mostly" PvP skill (though the movement can benefit PvE a bit).

 

I like this, and presents some new balancing options. I would suggest the juggling of abilities still, moving Seething Hatred tied to Shien in Unstoppable's place, and tieing the slow on bleeds to it instead of Pooled Hatred. In PvE I see Pooled Hatred as a small bonus when you happen to get controlled in a boss fight, but mostly worthless. But I feel Pooled Hated still needs a long overdue rework, as even in PvP it makes a difference only every now and then (I have hit 5k+ crits off Impale with it, but rarely).

 

Im not so sure about the accuracy though. I use it on my PvP Jug, mostly as a filler and so that I can stack more power/crit/surge on my gear in place of that 3% accuracy without hitting the DR near as fast, which will be key I would say in 2.0 for Veng.

 

EDIT: looking at the current tree, here's an idea: switch Accuracy with Vengeance (reduces force scream/impale CD). it's not an OP skill to have that low (full benefit only happens if you take impale late in the tree), and then drop accuracy for the slow. or meld them into one talent in vengeance's place. then add the speed boost to Pooled hatred. speed boost is a "mostly" PvP skill (though the movement can benefit PvE a bit).

 

Accuracy needs to stay where it is, so does the vengeance talent. A speed boost would be nice, but imo it would be better to put it into "Deadly reprisal". How about a remake to the Vengeance talent.

 

Suggestion:

- Vengeance: Reduces the cooldown of impale by 2/4/6 and Force scream by 1/2/3 seconds, and their damage over time effects now slows the target by 15/30/45% for 2/4/6 seconds, Additionally reduces damage taken from AOE attacks by 10/20/30% -....

 

It could also be tied to Shien form not sure whats best here, but putting in theese changes into the Vengeance talent would solve many problems

Accuracy needs to stay where it is, so does the vengeance talent. A speed boost would be nice, but imo it would be better to put it into "Deadly reprisal". How about a remake to the Vengeance talent.

 

Suggestion:

- Vengeance: Reduces the cooldown of impale by 2/4/6 and Force scream by 1/2/3 seconds, and their damage over time effects now slows the target by 15/30/45% for 2/4/6 seconds, Additionally reduces damage taken from AOE attacks by 10/20/30% -....

 

It could also be tied to Shien form not sure whats best here, but putting in theese changes into the Vengeance talent would solve many problems

 

Accuracy does need to stay put. And tying something to the Vengeance talent could work out well. However, adding AOE damage reduction to an already incredibly resilient spec might be a bit much.

 

When the devs responded, I believe that they realized that Seething Hatred was going to be a useless talent. Something should be done to rework or replace it.

I'd like to see Seething Hatred reworked for sure...it looks useless beyond leveling/doing dailies where you go from mob to mob relatively quickly...and it's a new T7 talent.

 

I do like the idea of swapping it with Unstoppable (not tied to Shien) but still think it should be reworked a bit even in that case.

Edited April 4, 2013 by stuffystuffs

I have a Vigilance Guardian, and I can agree with everyone here. We NEED a way to slow/snare our targets from range, and a root break wouldn't hurt either.

 

As is stands, I feel like Snipers/Gunslingers can just tee off on me with impunity once they drop cover. If I survive long enough to get to them, I'd like a way to make them stay put for a few seconds that doesn't cost such a huge chunk of our resources.

Seems as if we've been left in the dust (pun intended) for this patch. I just hope we don't have to wait as long as we did when they said they'd look into fixing stun bubble and subsequent resolve.

Our prayers were heard =)

2.2 will give us +15% movement speed.

Our prayers were heard =)

2.2 will give us +15% movement speed.

 

Prayers?

 

Ridiculous...

 

 

There is nothing wrong with vengeance,

 

Don't be asking for too many changes I like the tree where it's at Big Time. Leave the rest of the tree alone.

 

Edit- speed boost will be nice lol.

Edited May 25, 2013 by UncleOst
Spelling

Prayers?

 

Ridiculous...

 

 

There is nothing wrong with vengeance, omg...

 

Don't be asking for too many changes I like the tree where it's at Big Time!

 

The only change I'd concede is perhaps a snare with a bleed, or after charge: -speccable via revamped pooled hatred. Leave the rest of the damn tree alone....geezez

 

Actually, there is 1 thing wrong with Vengeance, and that's being kited. As has been pointed out numerous times, every other melee class has a 15% movement speed buff in the middle tree.

 

The speed buff is being tied to Shien form. There's no change to the tree at all. This is purely a free buff.

Actually, there is 1 thing wrong with Vengeance, and that's being kited. As has been pointed out numerous times, every other melee class has a 15% movement speed buff in the middle tree.

 

The speed buff is being tied to Shien form. There's no change to the tree at all. This is purely a free buff.

 

LooooL okay okay

 

That sounds freaking kool.

Finally!