The main reason ''why'' was given,and then an example was given.Other people pointed it out also.

* * *

The second point of my involvement is also proven all over the place.For example,might i remind you that you said the following ''Guys, guys please. We have no need to engage with the rabble.'' in a recently necroed thread to guys that were saying negative things about Sidious or other characters of the era.Oh,yes clearly there isn't a case. (sarcasm)

Regardless, the likelihood is that Vitiate has little skill in lightsaber combat. He is a Sith Sorcerer at heart and therefore his primary focus is the Force, lightsaber combat is peripheral and he likely saw it as such. Indeed against Revan he doesn't seem to even possess a lightsaber on his person and he was defeated by an inferior Force user through lightsaber combat. Even if he does possess a degree of skill, it is highly unlikely to be higher than that of Sidious' else he would have defeated the Hero of Tython, no question.

But again the example is moot as the primary purpose of the anaylsis was to demonstrate that the Sidious is a superior Force user. The Sith Emperor is a very well fleshed out character in terms of abilities given that almost all of his entries in Star Wars lore revolve around that. We have extensive knowledge concerning his capabilities and also his limitations, which I have gone over in great depth. There are many events in SWTOR lore that show what the Emperor can and more importantly cannot do.

And really your argument is contradictory to your own opinions, if you are indeed arguing that this comparison is flawed due to lack of information. Then how is it that you can so confidently assert that it is, and I quote: "obvious who is the most powerful" when lack of information makes the opposite the case?

if you are indeed arguing that this comparison is flawed due to lack of information.

I am not.You need to reread the whole discussion again.

Your argument wasn't even in relation to what is being compared - Force ability. So its completely irrelevant. That is what I mean by failing to elaborate.

It's not irrelevant to the reason of my involvement in the thread,which was not comparing Force ability.

The second point of my involvement is also proven all over the place.For example,might i remind you that you said the following ''Guys, guys please. We have no need to engage with the rabble.'' in a recently necroed thread to guys that were saying negative things about Sidious or other characters of the era.Oh,yes clearly there isn't a case. (sarcasm)

Not that that point has any point. Even if people were saying that the Sith Emperor was the most powerful all you'd be proving here is that I disagree with their opinions, its no different to what is being said in this thread.

I mean, I really don't get what your saying here lol. I mean how exactly does that contradict this:

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And you know what else? The Sith Emperor is one of my favourite characters from that era. Yet despite this I'm still capable of formulating a logical opinion contrary to my personal preferences. Which for the record shouldn't matter.

Who cares if people dislike the Sith Emperor and prefer other era's? What gives you the right to lecture them about how that isn't OK? So whatever your response may be, try to factor in some respect for other people's opinions. Or at the very least some acknowledgement, because you've failed to respond to post #471 where I address your concerns.

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My opinions on Sidious are not a product of an angst against him, even if you managed to dredge up hundreds of quotes of me talking down to people who believed the Sith Emperor was the most powerful you would be proving nothing. Only that I am of the opinion that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. What you will be hard pressed to find is me saying negative things about the Emperor outside of the scope of abilities "e.g. the Emperor is dumb, the Emperor has a big nose, the Emperor is a big fat failure. Sidious is way cooler and better yeah!"

I don't believe that.

Basically your making the assumption that my support for the Sidious is one of fanboyism, and your only saying that because you believe its patently obvious that this is not the case, and that therefore this can be the only feasible explanation. Yet despite this I've managed to produce an 8,000 word plus long explanation of my reasoning.

I am not.You need to reread the whole discussion again.

 

 

It's not irrelevant to the reason of my involvement in the thread,which was not comparing Force ability.

EDIT: I mean I'm guessing its not just that "lightsaber skill isn't indicative of power, so this analysis is pointless" given that the context of that analysis was in regards to the Sith Emperor's combat abilities, of which lightsaber combat is relevant.

If that is your point however then I'd encourage you to read Chapters 1, 2 and 3 which cover Force abilities in-depth.

EDIT: I sincerely hope that you are not implying that the Sith Emperor is a god and therefore beyond comparison, because the Sith Emperor doesn't even begin to rival the One's power. That would be fanboyism.

Like I said over at the other thread, canon is in flux. Who knows who is going to be more powerful after the game is done. I would not be surprised to find out Palpatine is being possessed by Tenebrae or other such crazyness.

Not possible and they would never allow it to happen.

1.Sidious has his own back-story already in the form of the Plagueis novel.

2.Vitiate is confirmed to be dead sometime before 69BBY.

3.Disney and Lucas would retcon it so hard that the BiOWare writers would have whiplash.

Not possible and they would never allow it to happen.

 

1.Sidious has his own back-story already in the form of the Plagueis novel.

2.Vitiate is confirmed to be dead sometime before 69BBY.

3.Disney and Lucas would retcon it so hard that the BiOWare writers have whiplash.

You grossly underestimate things.

Novels have been retconned before. Details in the novelization of a New Hope have been retconned out.

Vitiate is dead for now and that could change just as Palp was dead at Endor till Dark Empire came out.

Having watched the SW universe evolve over the years, I have seen it change tons. So never assume something is untouchable cause it ain't. Things change all the time.

What you did was not understand that I wasn't saying this was going to happen, I was saying that canon shifts radically and it could be something this crazy.

Edit: Go back and look a pre-Prequels details on the Clone Wars and post. Then tell me how some change is impossible.

You grossly underestimate things.

 

Novels have been retconned before. Details in the novelization of a New Hope have been retconned out.

 

Vitiate is dead for now and that could change just as Palp was dead at Endor till Dark Empire came out.

 

Having watched the SW universe evolve over the years, I have seen it change tons. So never assume something is untouchable cause it ain't. Things change all the time.

 

What you did was not understand that I wasn't saying this was going to happen, I was saying that canon shifts radically and it could be something this crazy.

 

Edit: Go back and look a pre-Prequels details on the Clone Wars and post. Then tell me how some change is impossible.

A fair point, however such drastic changes only ever happen with new trilogies and as far as I can see, the EU may not exist after that, so it's all a moot point anyway.

So, all someone have to do is grab him and throw him? I think vitiate could do that...

 

And it's still not explained why he didn't fly or used the force to survive the fall, if he's so powerfull

You continue to fail to see the obvious.

Edit: If you can't see what is right in front of you, then I don't feel the need to spell it out for you.

...

You don't need to bore with me with wall of texts regarding concrete issues.The uncolored part is all you needed.Now,to the point.Regarding the sincerity of it,i personally am not convinced but that is irrelevant.What i would like to stress out is that it's not only about opinionated arguments/fanboyism or its opposite towards concrete characters.It's also the adherence to an idea.I have noticed disregard towards the Bioware part of the franchise or in more broad terms,everything from Exar Kun to Bane.Just an observation.

It's something similar,maybe to a lesser extent to me being grossed out by all EU post ep 6.

You've taken that quote completely out of context and place it in another. That post was not in response to people saying that Sidious was stupid and had a big nose, (in fact most people were saying Sidious was the most powerful) but just to the fact that people were having another directionless discussion about who is the most powerful Jedi and Sith without going anywhere. It was also a joke. Ha ha.

Regarding that quote.It is your show of support and high five-ing towards the colored team,when they responded to a disagreeable position in comparison to the ideas that get thrown around within the colored team.You can't hide the snobism behind the ''rabble'' part by calling it a joke. Not that im against it ,mind you. However i used it to reinforce a point-namely the motivation behind the bashing of Vitiate,Revan and others , and the motivation behind the support behind certain movie or post ep 6 era characters.All this is part of the points i made previously in the thread.

Again i am not against it.The aspect that draws my interest and makes me pointing it out is the fake pretentiousness behind the complete objectivity claim.

A fair point, however such drastic changes only ever happen with new trilogies and as far as I can see, the EU may not exist after that, so it's all a moot point anyway.

Well Special Edition proves that even the Original Trilogy is not immune to tinkering either. Yes, EU may be in for some massive retinkering.

At least Trek got the alternate timeline bit when it got reset

I do struggle with the question because so much is in flux and we do not know how the rest goes down with Tenebrae.

You don't need to bore with me with wall of texts regarding concrete issues.The uncolored part is all you needed.Now,to the point.Regarding the sincerity of it,i personally am not convinced but that is irrelevant.What i would like to stress out is that it's not only about opinionated arguments/fanboyism or its opposite towards concrete characters.It's also the adherence to an idea.I have noticed disregard towards the Bioware part of the franchise or in more broad terms,everything from Exar Kun to Bane.Just an observation.

It's something similar,maybe to a lesser extent to me being grossed out by all EU post ep 6.

 

 

Regarding that quote.It is your show of support and high five-ing towards the colored team,when they responded to a disagreeable position in comparison to the ideas that get thrown around within the colored team.You can't hide the snobism behind the ''rabble'' part by calling it a joke. Not that im against it ,mind you. However i used it to reinforce a point-namely the motivation behind the bashing of Vitiate,Revan and others , and the motivation behind the support behind certain movie or post ep 6 era characters.All this is part of the points i made previously in the thread.

Again i am not against it.The aspect that draws my interest and makes me pointing it out is the fake pretentiousness behind the complete objectivity claim.

Aside from that you don't seem to have a point and continue to babble.

TL; DR - you are a very biased person, and therefore have no right to accuse us of being biased. At least I can claim to be a massive fan of BioWare and all their works. While you have made it abundantly clear you don't hold anything outside of the Old Republic era in very high esteem.

TL; DR - you are a very biased person, and therefore have no right to accuse us of being biased. At least I can claim to be a massive fan of BioWare and all their works. While you have made it abundantly clear you don't hold anything outside of the Old Republic era in very high esteem.

Nope, it's only the post ep 6 i am biased about.

Nope, it's only the post ep 6 i am biased about.

Oh really?

Yes.

IF you are Sidious' fanboy/movie chars fanboy.

OR you want Sidious to be most powerful because you want your precious little Luke and Anakin's achievements to be worth more.

Hmmm...

So ,refusing to be a movie character fanboy,makes me biased towards them? Nice.

However ,yes, im grossed out by the stories told about the movie characters in the post ep 6 EU.I never denied that.

Nope, it's only the post ep 6 i am biased about.

That's beyond fanboyism, that's just insanity.

The fact that you've stated that Revan is more powerful than Sidious makes me second guess that.

I don't actually remember stating this and it is not my opinion at the moment.And i am not even a Revan fanboy.I am a Meetra Surik and Traya fanboy.Well maybe not exactly a fanboy,but i like em.

I don't actually remember stating this and it is not my opinion at the moment.And i am not even a Revan fanboy.I am a Meetra Surik and Traya fanboy.Well maybe not exactly a fanboy,but i like em.

The ''actual'' evidence of Palpatine's power is in the Plagueis novel and in the movies.The EU created for the events after the movies,i can't actually belive some1 takes that stuff seriously,not to mention presenting it as ''evidence'' of anything whatsoever.This part of Star Wars is even worse than a cheap amateur fan fiction.

 

So they created him as the ''most powerful sith in history'' in the EU after episode 6 just because he is the main antagonist in the movies,lol.

Ok he is the most powerful being in the galaxy ,in his era,after Plagueis died,but comon,does anyone really believes he is more powerful than Vitiate that at the age of 13 impressed Marka Ragnos.

Not only Palpatine is not more powerful than Vitiate,but almsot all of the ancient dark lords are more powerful than him ,including Darth Nox,even without the sith spirits.

 

Imagine Palpatine in Vitiate's role.Being in charge of a Dark Council and an empire full of Sith,of which ,including the Dark Cauncil, are all afraid of him.Not going to happen.He wouldn't last a week.

One thing is certain,Revan is more powerful than Palpatine,and Vitiate is more powerful than Revan.

But like I said, it doesn't matter, all that really matters is the evidence one brings to the table. And I'm afraid the evidence brought to the table here is scarce to say the very least.

Suddenly being guilty of scoffing at opinions like these doesn't seem so bad anymore does it?

Hey,i've changed my mind since then,regarding how powerful Sidious is.

PS:Where the hell did you dug this up anyway.What is the date of the post?

Hey,i've changed my mind since then.

It's actually quite strange you would dig this up ,because i have stated many times that if Vitiate is the most powerful ,Sidious is second.Which means Revan is not more powerful than Sidious.I am pretty sure you have seen these posts.

Which means by now you should haven known i don't think Revan is more powerful than Sidious,which makes the purpose of quotation of that old post interesting.A straw maybe?

Sorry of the tautology.

It's actually quite strange you would dig this up ,because i have stated many times that if Vitiate is the most powerful ,Sidious is second.Which means Revan is not more powerful than Sidious.I am pretty sure you have seen these posts.

Which means by now you should haven known i don't think Revan is more powerful than Sidious,which makes the purpose of quotation of that old post interesting.

 

Sorry of the tautology.

P.S Tautology is saying the same thing twice... likes apples are apples.

If we are talking just raw power, the Emperor is more powerful than Sidious by far. The Emperor drained the Force from an entire planet using a Sith ritual, every humanoid, animal, plant and bacteria. This gave him immense raw power, so much that he can fully possess almost anyone to be his Voice. The Voice is essentially him, but if you kill the host the Emperor just recovers for a short period and selects a new Voice.

Also have to remember his Children too, they have a bit more free will, but the Emperor can take control when he wants. Of course his hold isn't as strong as his Voice, as shown by Kira's resistance to him during the Knight storyline.

However, Sidious is patient and a master of schemes, so if he knew he was going to have to deal with the Emperor (assuming they lived at same time), he'd make plans years in advance to give him the best possible advantage when the confrontation occurred. Most likely finding where the actual Emperor is, getting his Voice killed and then confronting him.

Now throwing Revan into this mix....

In the KOTOR game and the Revan novel, he was much more powerful that he is portrayed in SWTOR. Of course, one could argue that Revan was weakened from 300 yrs of captivity, he was constantly fighting the mental assault of the Emperor. This would explain why some mid-range imperials are able to take him down so easily. If we assume the Revan before his capture, he has mastered both dark & light abilities which would give him a huge advantage over Sidious or the Emperor. He was a master strategist, able to defeat the mandalorians, so he would be a match for Sidious' cunning. In the novel (minor spoilers inc), Revan probably would have succeeded in killing the Emperor had Lord Scourge not betrayed him by backstabbing the Exile and turning on Revan.

Regardless of your current opinions, the post still clearly demonstrates that you are incredibly biased in regards to this topic, nobody claiming to be partisan in regards to Sidious would ever even consider those kinds of opinions. I can accept that your opinions have changed, but that mindset ain't going anywhere.

P.S Tautology is saying the same thing twice... likes apples are apples.

You should have read the post you quoted yourself.My ex extreme opinion is a result my annoyance of post ep 6 stuff used as evidence.I am partisan towards these sources.The opinion regarding pre ep 6 is just not acknowledging the full extent of his power.

A particular mindset is at work when looking at post ep 6,but before 6 there isn't.In another words i am biased when post ep 6 gets thrown in the mix.

PS.It's more than that.

Anyway.... i am getting bored of this thing.So i am gonna do what you suggested in that other thread,unless forced back.Cya later.

If we are talking just raw power, the Emperor is more powerful than Sidious by far. The Emperor drained the Force from an entire planet using a Sith ritual, every humanoid, animal, plant and bacteria. This gave him immense raw power, so much that he can fully possess almost anyone to be his Voice. The Voice is essentially him, but if you kill the host the Emperor just recovers for a short period and selects a new Voice.

 

Also have to remember his Children too, they have a bit more free will, but the Emperor can take control when he wants. Of course his hold isn't as strong as his Voice, as shown by Kira's resistance to him during the Knight storyline.

 

However, Sidious is patient and a master of schemes, so if he knew he was going to have to deal with the Emperor (assuming they lived at same time), he'd make plans years in advance to give him the best possible advantage when the confrontation occurred. Most likely finding where the actual Emperor is, getting his Voice killed and then confronting him.

 

Now throwing Revan into this mix....

 

In the KOTOR game and the Revan novel, he was much more powerful that he is portrayed in SWTOR. Of course, one could argue that Revan was weakened from 300 yrs of captivity, he was constantly fighting the mental assault of the Emperor. This would explain why some mid-range imperials are able to take him down so easily. If we assume the Revan before his capture, he has mastered both dark & light abilities which would give him a huge advantage over Sidious or the Emperor. He was a master strategist, able to defeat the mandalorians, so he would be a match for Sidious' cunning. In the novel (minor spoilers inc), Revan probably would have succeeded in killing the Emperor had Lord Scourge not betrayed him by backstabbing the Exile and turning on Revan.

And I'm not sure what Revan has to do with this... however against both Sidious and the Emperor he would and has been handedly defeat. His mastery over the Force is minuscule compared to there's. He also failed to achieve complete mastery over both aspects. He could perform some high level light side powers, and wield Sith Lightning and had knowledge of a few other powers. Its a assumption that having access to both fields gives him any kind of advantage against his enemies - it doesn't.