It's our survivability that is the issue, not our damage. I've said it countless times in 1.X and now 2.0 is here and it's worse. What you said is effectively hat I've said in other threads: other classes have had their damage increased hike our defenses have remained untouched. Tht effectively means we are even MORE vulnerable now.

 

Examples:

 

Last night I had 2 snipers in a Novare picking me off as soon as I unstealthed, try had pocket heals on top of the obvious. In fact, one dude was so cocky as to constantly you with me as if I had hassle him in the past, which wasn't the case. They ended Novare with 750k a piece and 0 deaths with me at 520k and 7 deaths.

 

However, the flip side to that is a few games later, frustrated at this point mind you, I was in Voidstar with a competent bunh, and was virtually unfocused by the opposin team for all of round 1. Round 2 came and they started getting more aggressive to beat is an I started getting focused then. It was by pyro PTs not snipers though. I ended top damage for pub at 813k with 2 deaths.

 

Point is our damage is there. Stringing crits together is a little worse b/c luck has changed with crit changes. But our survivability is in the toilet.

 

I play a shadow as well and even balance spec I wouldn't call survivability as "low" as the previous post said. They have amazing survivability compared to a scrapper. I still say we need our dodge booste to a sufficient level. We're at 5% base dodge with 2% talented. Going against someone who has accuracy over 100 will negate that and we take every single hot sent our way. We need dodge to survive, we're not tanks, were not meant to take hits at all, let alone every one of them.

 

Lastly, my scrapper has 7% dodge as stated with talents. My infil has 10% parry and has better defense CDs to boot. I can also equip a shield for what 20% more dodge/absorb chance. It seriously needs to be looked at.

 

Sorry for any typos, did this on my iPhone in a break.

We're glass cannon, and we're designed to "Pillar kite". Our roll is pretty great now, since you can roll behind something heal, then keep fighting. It takes time getting used to.

Yeah, pretty much. But tht doesn't mean we should have to take it on the chin and have a 5%/7% talented dodge chance. Especially what does that come out to if our opponent has enough accuracy? 25% dodge would not kill them to do and that's only be for melee and ranged attacks, we'd still eat tech and force attacks 100% like normal.

Life came up so I am still chugging on to 55. But I have not forgotten about the thread! Once at 55 I will start to post some updates to the main page. I am also working on some general updates involving talents, Scamper, and new WZ ideas given some of our new capabilities.

Welcome back.

 

Yeah, interested in seeing your updates at 55.

Has anyone crunched any numbers re: trading cunning for surge in augments? Would it be at all advisable to trade 100-200 cunning for surge via augments in order to max out alacrity on the rest of the gear?

No, surge has a much lower cap now and the more surge you stack the less you benefit from it. I'm at 73% right now and see less benefit from each additional surge I get. Think the cap is now 75% by the looks of it.

 

Not sure what you or anyone else's stats are but bolstered to 1206 tech with 1900 exp, 2 of the 410 power proc relics, 73% surge and a WZ dmg buff I hit 7400+ SF and 6800+ BB. That's on the high end, not the norm.

I'm thinking 0-100 surge on gear and 0-200 surge on augments. Not trying to stack surge.

I'm thinking 0-100 surge on gear and 0-200 surge on augments. Not trying to stack surge.

 

I would not recommend using surge augments. I personally find it better to acquire stats such as crit and surge in your gear to an extent, make up the markers in your gear. Then stats which you just need as many as you can get of (power/cunning) you put in augment slots as it lets you reach your targets more easily and know how to easily finish off your gear.

 

Just a little gearing tip.

 

 

I have been playing around with the numbers at the moment, still trying to work out optimal stats for us, and the equivalent level of gear we need for that (mods and things). I think though I would trust Randiesel or kittnshinx to give far better recommended stats. Will still post when I have anything more definitive.

Edited April 21, 2013 by CarthOnansi

Heh, thx for the vote of confidence man. Idk that I necessarily am one to go by though =P

 

For whatever it's worth, since it was brought up, here are my current stats. 2 pics, first one outside of a warzone on fleet w/o bolster and the 2nd with bolster inside a wz. I have in NO way min/maxed my gear, haven't had the time and quite frankly at this very moment I don't really care to. Of importance to mention is I've dropped the 2 piece PvE bonus (15% crit to BB) for more expertise in my gear, albeit I am running with 2 +41 power crystals instead of +41 exp crystals in my weapons. My gear is 3 pc Medic gear (for +10% dmg absorption with Defense Screen for added survivability) and 2 pc Enforcer (for +1 second to Dodge). Every piece is Partisan, with the exception being a Conq shotgun. I'm poor at the moment, so I'm using my lvl 50 augments (+18 cunning/+12 endurance). Hoping to replace those as I gain more credits through dailies and prices on augments go down.

 

Stats outside of a warzone, no bolster

1121.9 tech damage/26.15% crit/74.47% surge/2.87% alacrity

 

Stats inside of a warzone, with bolster

1209.3 tech damage/rest are the same

 

Short/bad Voidstar screenshot is my highest single hit at 55 (with Shoot First). Probably everyone has noticed 50-54 our damage started going down with every level we gained (hitting for over 8k at 50). Soon as I entered level 55 PvP I was hitting barely over 6k and would not get the 6k medal every game as bolster was still a mess and I only had EWH gear still, vs others who had leveled faster (leveled my scrapper 2nd after my shadow) and were already full partisan. After gearing and getting more power/surge, those number climbed and I usually hit 6.8-7.1k a game now.

 

Technically we should probably be gearing/modding more for alacrity with it being so much better for us, especially increasing our energey regen (as unloading with heavy attacks can still easily drain your energy bar). However, I find I have better uptime (time spent actually playing, not behind the locked doors waiting to respawn b/c we're so easy to kill) by hitting as hard as I possibly can and moving from target to target offing them, rather than hitting faster for lower damage. I'd suspect PvE raiding would be the opposite, but I'm big on survivability in PvP, which is probably why I play a Shadow too.

 

Again, not that anyone should go by my stats, I don't know that how I play is optimal to the scrapper populous as a whole. But since the topic of stats was in the air figured I'd share mine at least.

Edited April 23, 2013 by randiesel

As this is the de facto Scoundrel theorycraft thread, thought I'd mention that I was looking for whether Torhead had updated any of our abilites' coefficients, etc. for 2.0.

 

Two have changed (assuming Torhead is comprehensive, which I don't necessarily): Sabotage Charge and Sucker Punch (Vital Shot too, though this was pretty small and may just have been more accurate figures on Torhead now than in the past). This confirms what we'd heard from dev communications.

 

I threw them into my damage spreadsheets to see what kind of difference it'd make to output.

 

Sabotage Charge base damage boosted about 21%.

Sucker Punch base damage boosted about 13%. Add in Fying Fists and its increased procs, and it's around 15.5%. It's gone from a bit better than Blaster Whip to definitely better.

 

So make sure you're using your Sabo Charges for burst and punching plenty of suckers.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Wainamoinen

I have not forgotten this thread and guide. Life has just prevented me from leveling at a fast pace. As an update, I am now at 54.5 and almost 55! Commendations are saved, Medpacs are ready (I have at least 700), and I am close to the real PvP action. Special thanks to coffee for the exp boost he gave me.

 

So far, the Scrapper buffs pre-55 have been outstanding. I hope that performance remains at max level.

So just curious, as this thread used to be a hot spot for most scrappers to discuss things and its been like a ghost town since 2.0:

 

Anyone still running scrapper? Miyke (OP) included? I know RL gets in the way a lot of times, but its almost been a month since 2.0 launched with early access and I don't see a lot on here anymore.

 

Several of the best (or could be just "the remaining") concealment ops andscrappershave gone heals or are quitting the game entirely. Seems like most are now DF/Lethality just to do big AoE bleed numbers for lols. Kinda sad in a way.

TL; DR Questions at the bottom.

 

I'm still running Scrapper although I would place myself in "the remaining" bucket, heh. I just like the play style better than everything else.

 

I could use some help with gearing and min/max ideas.

 

I have just finished getting full Partisan, all augmented with cunning leaning heavily towards power/surge with a medium dose of crit/alacrity.

 

My *buffed* stats are:

2880 cunning

1146 bonus tech

636 power

104.91% accuracy (one piece has 60 acc)

25.37% crit (189 crit rating)

69.06% crit multiplier (360 surge rating)

6.3 energy regen (180 alacrity and 2% from black market mods)

4.55% alacrity

 

I gotta tell you this feels extremely weak in WZs. Randiesel, I am feeling your pain here man. Bigtime, lol. The only time I put a hurting on anything is when SF/BB both crit and as you can tell from my numbers that is an obvious rarity. I feel vaguely useful occasionally for well planned knockdowns, flashbangs and flybys, but damage wise I feel like I kicked *** if I break 400K lol, which is sad.

 

Now I can go in three directions as I see it. I can drop my crit (down to 21.5%, bleh) and grab more power or I can drop power and build more crit. Or I can chug on through to Conq and then choose one of these paths.

 

My questions are:

 

1. What are some of you who have better gear then me doing for stat allocation? Anyone feeling strong yet?

2. Is it worth min/maxing my partisan gear in one of the two directions I mentioned or do I keep sucking it up in WZs as I work towards Conq? ( and find out 2 months later that I am still a wet noodle )

Edited May 3, 2013 by Cryowolf

Basically, from what you've posted, I'd suggest maxing your surge. I'm at 75% and have hit 7800 with SF and 6800 with BB. My hybrid spec I posted for you hits for less w/o armor pen, but my highest SF is 7400 and BB at 6600 with that build.

 

I wouldn't say it's us hitting like a wet noodle. I see mandos hitting over 11k and sages for 9.5k, shadows for 10k, etc. That said, that's a single hit. We get a 7k SF followed by a 6k BB and that's 13k. Yes, completely agree that we are still bottom-of-the-barrel as far as crit since we can't rely on auto-crit like other classes, but it still happens more often than not.

 

I think it's more about resourcefulness now more than ever. Highest I got as scrapper was 860k and that was with ppl focusing me non-stop and dying pretty handily to other classes. I just broke 1 million on my hybrid this morning and the added defense it gives you (taking cover, mostly) makes me feel like I'm more useful now than ever.

 

Back on topic, I'd say you're fine, or almost fine, with your stats. I think I'm at 26% crit (tech) and 75% surge with my current build. Surge obviously helps your attacks hit as hard as they can, and I see that still as the best way to go for scrappers, personally. Alacrity is great, and would especially deal better sustained dps in raids, but burst damage is king in pvp (that is for killing, not playing for numbers) and I still say power/surge with a healthy crit rating.

 

Hope that helps.

Cool, yeah that does help give me some direction. And restores my faith a bit, too.

 

*Edit* What do you think about min/maxing my partisan set?

Edited May 4, 2013 by Cryowolf

*Edit* What do you think about min/maxing my partisan set?

 

You planning on picking up conq gear at all? I'd still say power/surge and a good crit rating if you're min/maxing partisan. Idk how others are doing it, or what Miyke (OP) will post after his testing, as far as alacrity.

Edited May 5, 2013 by randiesel

Yeah that's what I gathered from your post. I removed all alacrity and the little accuracy I still had and added more crit/surge. Made a noticeable difference in my killing power and I don't notice the lack of alacrity at all. My partisan is now min/maxed where I want it to be and I am saving for the conq relic and then probably the MH/OH.

 

New stats are:

2857 cunning

1101 bonus tech

469 power

104% accuracy

28.74% crit

74.41% crit multiplier

6.0 energy regen

0% alacrity

 

Thanks!

 

P.S. Got a 7945 SF tonight. It was immediately followed by force barrier, of course.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Cryowolf

I had a pm requesting me to repost my Shrapper build. Here are 3 variations of it:

 

0/30/16

3/30/13

0/33/13

 

Each would have roughly the same potential, except I think the last build (0/33/13) would be the worst in pvp.

 

The general idea of the build: Keeping aoe dots on targets, plus increasing the damage of vital shot. When you switch targets, you already have a bleed up on that target, so you'll likely have Upper Hand regranted by getting Flying Fists to proc on the new target.

 

The drawback(s): A lot of your damage is going to be "fluff damage". That is, useless dot damage that is used to inflate your own overall damage on the leaderboard. The increased bleed damage on a single target that you are trying to focus down is nice, and you retain mostly everything from the Scrapper tree, but the loss of Flechette Round hurts you 1v1.

 

Tested on a target dummy and full scrapper (3/36/7) pulls roughly 200 dps higher single target than this hybrid. Your ability to 1v1 will be cut down since you're losing armor pen and alacrity, but that's up to you if you want to chance it. Not often will you come up a really good 1v1 that requires your every last ounce of skill to overcome. Actually, I've had a few instances where I've 1v1'ed and at the end just let the bleeds finish off the opponent while I start making my way in the direction I was set to go in originally.

 

The reason I originally tested the build was for increased survivability in warzones with ranged dps focusing me down, so I figured the use of dots and LoS would increase my own damage, and hopefully keep being useful rather than fluff damage. It is sort of in the middle of the road in what my expectations for the build were, but in all honesty survivability stays the same pretty much.

 

Not really important, but I played a few rounds on my scoundrel this morning and afterward one of the snipers logged onto a republic toon to commend me for a few 1v1s we had while he was node guarding. Nice guy it turns out, and I find out through just general conversation with him that most imp pvpers on my server *hate* me. I guess in comparison to my performance on my alt scrapper on a different server, it makes complete logical sense: My alt doesn't get focused, or if the potential to focus is there, I may just be attacked by one lone person and overlooked by others. When most of the players I go against actually can't wait to see me die, makes perfect sense that everyone in the warzone is turning to me to get off on the experience. Under those conditions, you're going to fold on a class with limited cooldowns that aren't all that great in the first place.

 

TL;DR - Your survivability is what you make it using any build. Scrapper has more defense offensively (knockdown, root, higher critical damage), whereas DF has more defense defensively (higher burst through WS use, aoe bleeds, better chance to get away and bleed out your targets while you LoS). The hybrid is somewhat middle of the road on both, Jack-of-all-trades but Master-of-none as the loss of Flechette Round or Wounding Shot makes either full build better than not having it.

 

And in closing, for games that you really don't have a chance in hell for surviving, and after a few quick deaths you feel totally useless (games with several smashers, dps sorcs, snipers, dps sincs, etc) you may find yourself wanting to live. In those cases, I've been switching mid-game to 23/0/23. The build is godly in your ability to survive and do decent damage. Your energy management is paramount in keeping up your ability to do either one or both tasks efficiently, even with the 2 Cool Head improvement talents, but otherwise it is a solid build. Highest I've done with limited testing is 900 dps, but I'm sure given the right conditions you could bang out 1200 dps or higher in a Voidstar against a team with 2-4 healers. The build is lethal 1v1 and keeps you going long until you're ganged up on, sometimes 3+. Very efficient for node guarding or anything else where you're survival is paramount compared to your ability to cut down your current target in only seconds.

 

Cheers,

 

- Crackshot @ JC

Couple samples of what is done with the build:

 

1400 dps with hybrid build

7400 hit with hybrid build

 

As mentioned above, the highest critical damage of a full scrapper build is not there as 7400 is my highest hit. Not that it "isn't good enough", but that's the highest I've seen Shoot First hit with that build. My highest is almost 8200 thus far.

 

Just food for comparison.

So just curious, as this thread used to be a hot spot for most scrappers to discuss things and its been like a ghost town since 2.0:

 

Anyone still running scrapper? Miyke (OP) included? I know RL gets in the way a lot of times, but its almost been a month since 2.0 launched with early access and I don't see a lot on here anymore.

 

Several of the best (or could be just "the remaining") concealment ops andscrappershave gone heals or are quitting the game entirely. Seems like most are now DF/Lethality just to do big AoE bleed numbers for lols. Kinda sad in a way.

RL majorly got in the way for me. But, as you can see on the OP, I am definitely going through and editing the Handbook to reflect our state in 2.0. At least from my experience, I think that things are much improved from the pre 2.0 days, and although I am not playing as much as before, I am thoroughly enjoying Scrapper since RotHC launched.

 

More updates will be coming! No section shall be left behind!

Just to update, a build that I'm liking a little more than the cookie cutter 3/36/7 build that all the other scrappers use, and using as my main spec now, is:

 

10/36/0

7/36/3 variation with 3% more crit

 

I'm finding that running with 3/3 in No Holds Barred for 3% more crit is somewhat lackluster now with the reduction in crit and DR on top of that. If they increased the talent back to what it used to be back in I think it was 1.3 or 1.4, which was 2% crit per point = 6% crit total, I think it'd be worth it.

 

- Crackshot @ JC

I'm finding that running with 3/3 in No Holds Barred for 3% more crit is somewhat lackluster now with the reduction in crit and DR on top of that.

 

Don't confuse Crit (the stat) with crit chance (what you want, and get from Crit stat plus other stuff).

 

Crit has been nerfed. But that's because it gives you less crit chance for every point of Crit. This makes any crit chance you get from other sources (like talents) *more* valuable, because it's the end product that you want, and it's so useless trying to get it from Crit stat.

 

Yes, 2/4/6 % would of course be nicer than 1/2/3 %, and other talents may be worth more than 1/2/3% extra crit chance. With the number of talent points we have though, I'd probably still grab the extra, off-DR crit chance.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Wainamoinen

I am very glad I stumbled across this thread. Probably the best guide for Scrapper/Concealment on the internet right now. Really appreciate the amount of detail that has gone into this. It was immensely helpful for me in pre 2.0. However, I did have two questions.

 

My main is a concealment Operative who is approaching full conqueror gear and I am a bit unsure if I am gearing him properly in regards to crit chance and Relics. I average a minimum of 300k dps a WZ, but I feel as though my stats could be potentially better. Do I want to take the relic that increases power along with the kinetic energy damage one? Or should I take two of the direct damage ones? To me, it looks like the power relic is very unreliable and the more frequent extra damage would be better overall.

 

Additionally, I am currently using two of the old PvE amor mods that give a 15% boost to crit chance for backstab. I am doing this at the cost of about 4%ish damage from the expertise loss. Is it still worth it to keep the old mods? Or should I switch to the new Medic two piece set bonus? Right now my crit chance is sitting at 27%. I might be able to get it to 29-30% by the time I finish gearing.

 

Help would be much appreciated.

Edited May 17, 2013 by HMD_Maximus

Don't confuse Crit (the stat) with crit chance (what you want, and get from Crit stat plus other stuff).

 

Crit has been nerfed. But that's because it gives you less crit chance for every point of Crit. This makes any crit chance you get from other sources (like talents) *more* valuable, because it's the end product that you want, and it's so useless trying to get it from Crit stat.

 

Yes, 2/4/6 % would of course be nicer than 1/2/3 %, and other talents may be worth more than 1/2/3% extra crit chance. With the number of talent points we have though, I'd probably still grab the extra, off-DR crit chance.

 

Agreed, but I believe the consensus is that crit has DR over 25% so even puttin talent points into it regardless isn't necessarily better. I respec a lot, so sometimes I run with it sometimes not. Doesn't make a world of difference in any respect. I also ran with 29-30% crit in 1.7 whereas a lot of "expert" scrappers ha 35%+. I see bigger results running with more power for more even output. Crit nerf hurt us, yes, but we still have 16% increased chance to SF and BB which is all you really need to think about.