...Plageius was still alive, I think...

 

Sidious killed him the night before Palpatine's return to Naboo as Chancellor, according to Mr. Luceno.

Doubt that highly. Pretty sure Sidious had been the established DLS for a while when EP 1 started. His confidence, swagger, plans all said as much.

 

Those terms would normally be, but the fact that in this case one term belongs exclusively to 1 of those 2 polar opposite orders, makes them quite different too.

 

Sidious killed him the night before Palpatine's return to Naboo as Chancellor, according to Mr. Luceno.

 

No. In the Plagueis novel, it's revealed that Palpatine killed Plagueis at almost the exact same moment Maul was defeated.

No. In the Plagueis novel, it's revealed that Palpatine killed Plagueis at almost the exact same moment Maul was defeated.

 

Sorry, but would you mind providing a source? Link to that text in the book? For some reason I find that suspect....

No. In the Plagueis novel, it's revealed that Palpatine killed Plagueis at almost the exact same moment Maul was defeated.

 

Well it was night on Coruscant when Hego met his maker

I have yet to see any Jinn defenders here (makes sense), soooo I'll say it again. Worst. Jedi. Ever. Almost pointless, boring character.

 

His dueling skills as a Master were also apparently sub par. He was cut down by an apprentice. Yes the apprentice of Sidious, & a Darth, but an apprentice nonetheless.

 

His only redeeming quality for me is that he appeared to be a Grey Jedi who trolled the council.

 

You fail to realize that darth maul was considered one of the top sith duelists ever, and apprenticed to perhaps the most powerful sith.

Sorry, but would you mind providing a source? Link to that text in the book? For some reason I find that suspect....

 

I'll do you one better. http://youtu.be/liPQwuUhsag?t=3m56s Here is the exact quote from the audio book. I suggest listening to the previous chaper as well. (Chapter 30, part 3) Or the entire thing.

 

(Hey, can anyone give me the exact format to merge the link with the text? IE, the "here"?)

Pretty much. The story, and the purpose, of the movies was to fill in Vader's rise. They nailed it and the visuals were great, which doesnt hurt. Some dingle berry posted a YouTube video of his critique and now everyone is like "OMFUG! I have to be cool like this dude and jump on the hating bandwagon!!!"""

.

 

I'm confused...your post is dated today (May of 2012) and you're griping about opinions that started being published in May 1999? I'm not sure about the *specific* review you are mentioning (since you didn't provide a link), but prequel-hating has been around since the initial release.

I have yet to see any Jinn defenders here (makes sense), soooo I'll say it again. Worst. Jedi. Ever. Almost pointless, boring character.

 

His dueling skills as a Master were also apparently sub par. He was cut down by an apprentice. Yes the apprentice of Sidious, & a Darth, but an apprentice nonetheless.

 

His only redeeming quality for me is that he appeared to be a Grey Jedi who trolled the council.

 

An apprentice only in the fact that he was subservient to Sidious not in ability or training.

You fail to realize that darth maul was considered one of the top sith duelists ever, and apprenticed to perhaps the most powerful sith.

 

You fail to realize you quoted a post of mine that said JUST that lol.

An apprentice only in the fact that he was subservient to Sidious not in ability or training.

 

LOL are you actually trying to say Maul was as OR MORE powerful than Sidious?

LOL are you actually trying to say Maul was as OR MORE powerful than Sidious?

 

Actually I think he is getting at the fact that neither Sidious nor Plagius ever considered Maul to be an apprentice. He was an assassin, trained only enough in the force to be that. He was never meant to be a true apprentice.

If memory serves, Red Letter Media's Episode I tirade - sorry, review - postulated that Qui-Gon Jinn is a pointless character - wrong, says I: he championed Anakin. Obi-Wan inherited Anakin.

 

Anakin's fall was assured by Kenobi's reluctant tutelage. The point of Qui-Gon Jinn is diligence. His heart would've been in it.

 

But what says you...?

 

Well one of the reason that Anakin kept some distance with Obi Wan was that Qui Gon Jinn was too great in his hear. Obi Wan was quite different.

 

Not to say Qui Gon Jinn was the one who lead Obi Wan and Yoda to see the flaw of the old Jedi Way and taught them to become force ghost.

Sorry, but would you mind providing a source? Link to that text in the book? For some reason I find that suspect....

 

At page 362 in the Plagueis book.

 

"It wasn't until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul's defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis".

 

"That Plagueis's death and Maul's defeat had occurred in relative simultaneity could only have been the will of the dark side of the Force, as was the fact that, until such time as he took and trained a new apprentice, Palpatine was now the galaxy's sole Sith Lord".

At page 362 in the Plagueis book.

 

"It wasn't until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul's defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis".

 

"That Plagueis's death and Maul's defeat had occurred in relative simultaneity could only have been the will of the dark side of the Force, as was the fact that, until such time as he took and trained a new apprentice, Palpatine was now the galaxy's sole Sith Lord".

 

I already posted the link.

I think Qui Gon was a demonstration of the divergence of what a jedi should be from what the council was becoming. Qui Gon did what he thought and felt and was right, and ignored the council when their sage opinion and his own differed.

This can be a recipe for disaster but, the council made a lot of questionable decisions during this time period. Among other things, if you stop and think about it, it makes no sense that Obi Wan trained Anakin at all. The entire council felt some foreboding about his future, so why didn't the 800 year old grand master of the jedi order train him, or Mace Windu, or some other very experienced master? And given his strength, why did the masters think not training Anakin at all, especially with the re-emergence of the sith now evident, was an even remotely good idea? Having a highly experienced master train Anakin makes much more sense than to hand him off to someone who has been a knight for all of 50 seconds lol.

Obi Wan simply wasn't ready, especially given that he grew up within the order and had never experienced truly deep emotional ties before. Part of why he missed Anakin's fall was that he was too attached to Anakin, and couldn't see the signs because he was wrestling with the first deep emotional bond he had ever experienced: his sense of brotherhood with Anakin. Qui Gon was needed to demonstrate the difference between someone who could have done the job, someone who couldn't have done the job, and the way jedi should act vs. the way the council was acting.

 

If you recall, the Council ruled that Anakin was too old. They only agreed to let Obi-Wan train him as he was basically going to take him on as his Padawan whether they agreed or not. Qui-Gon had basically told them he would have done as much and they knew that Obi-Wan would too.

 

In all fairness to Obi-Wan, Anakin missed out on his Apprenticeship which denied him the opportunity to learn the basics as all of the younglings did. Just so it is clear, the Jedi do have Apprentices, that is what you are called before you are chosen as someone's Padawan.

 

Missing out on that very important part of his training would have in all likelihood ended exactly the same way even if Qui-Gon had lived to train Anakin. If you recall from Empire Strikes Back, Obi-Wan laments about his training of Anakin and states that he thought he could have trained him as well as Yoda, no mention of Qui-Gon at all. That to me says that he feels Anakin missed out on some vital training by not being trained with the other younglings.

 

As far as Qui-Gon losing to Maul, that was due mostly to the fact that Jedi hadn't seen a Sith in over 1,000 years. Not a single one of them was ready to face a Sith at that point. Maul sensed this and once he defeated the Master, he got cocky while facing the Padawan.

one of ppls biggest complaints with the prequels, is that rhey were not very story driven. qui-gon might have had a small part but in the little time that he had, he did add to the story. both with anakin and obi-wan. we got to see obi-wan's master, so we go some insight to how he became the man he was. and we have the discovery of anakin, and the way qui-gon would defy the council to train him. you could take qui-gon away, but you would be taking away a bit of the story, in a film that was already quite lacking in story. imo

Not sure how it was lacking in story. It was the story behind Vader and his rise to the dark side

 

 

EP 2 and 3 especially

Not sure how it was lacking in story. It was the story behind Vader and his rise to the dark side

 

 

EP 2 and 3 especially

 

it just seemed more flashy and less story than OT. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying there was no story, i'm just saying there was less of a story. but i guess this is due to different film making practices and CGI. i and i think many feel that OT was much more story and character driven then the prequels. and if you got rid of qui-gon, you would get rid of a big part of the story of TPM

 

just to be clear i actually liked the prequels, but that doesn't' mean i can't see why ppl complained

it just seemed more flashy and less story than OT. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying there was no story, i'm just saying there was less of a story. but i guess this is due to different film making practices and CGI. i and i think many feel that OT was much more story and character driven then the prequels. and if you got rid of qui-gon, you would get rid of a big part of the story of TPM

 

just to be clear i actually liked the prequels, but that doesn't' mean i can't see why ppl complained

 

I agree. Nothing was as good as OT. OT had its qwerky moments, but it was better

Actually I think he is getting at the fact that neither Sidious nor Plagius ever considered Maul to be an apprentice. He was an assassin, trained only enough in the force to be that. He was never meant to be a true apprentice.

 

Sidious clearly, plainly stated "This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." Now, WHAT KIND of apprentice Maul was (placeholder for Tyrannus, who was a place holder for Anakin, who was a place holder for Luke) can be debated I guess.

At page 362 in the Plagueis book.

 

"It wasn't until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul's defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis".

 

"That Plagueis's death and Maul's defeat had occurred in relative simultaneity could only have been the will of the dark side of the Force, as was the fact that, until such time as he took and trained a new apprentice, Palpatine was now the galaxy's sole Sith Lord".

 

VERY interesting. It's been said that Sidious cared nothing for Maul, but Maul looked up to his master like a father. Apparently Sidious did feel something he'd never show?

 

Thanks.

If memory serves, Red Letter Media's Episode I tirade - sorry, review - postulated that Qui-Gon Jinn is a pointless character - wrong, says I: he championed Anakin. Obi-Wan inherited Anakin.

 

Anakin's fall was assured by Kenobi's reluctant tutelage. The point of Qui-Gon Jinn is diligence. His heart would've been in it.

 

But what says you...?

 

the point of RLM's review was that Qui-Gon Jinn served NO role that couldn't be served by just Obi-wan. IE Obi-wan could have been the only jedi and the movie would have had more thorough character development.

Sidious had not decide to take both Dooku and Anakin as apprentice until the end of Naboo crisis, both Plagueis and Maul were dead.

 

Because of Plagueis, Maul was trained to be a personal assassin rather than a true Sith Lord.

the point of RLM's review was that Qui-Gon Jinn served NO role that couldn't be served by just Obi-wan. IE Obi-wan could have been the only jedi and the movie would have had more thorough character development.

 

A great father figure that could not be replaced in Anakin's heart. That's not a role Obi Wan could play otherwise they won't become enemies.

 

Also Qui Gon Jinn was the one who taught Yoda to get rid of the old Jedi's flaw, Obi Wan could not play this role, either. Even in OT he still got problems.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Slowpokeking

A great father figure that could not be replaced in Anakin's heart. That's not a role Obi Wan could play otherwise they won't become enemies.

 

Also Qui Gon Jinn was the one who taught Yoda to get rid of the old Jedi's flaw, Obi Wan could not play this role, either. Even in OT he still got problems.

 

Your post doesn't even make sense... OF COURSE Obi-Wan could play a father figure and they become enemies, in fact in episode 2 the dialogue as they enter the cantina on Coruscant is:

 

"Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?"

"Don't say that, master, you're like a father to me."

"Then why don't you listen to me?"

"I try, master."

 

And point out one problem with Obi-wan in the OT. I'd love to see that.

 

He lied to Luke? He lied in hopes of shielding Luke from the truth long enough, and if he found out, say, the moment he stepped on the Millenium Falcon, it could have lead to his corruption and conversion to the darkside. erroneous? arguably, but it was done with reason and good intention as luke understood when he spoke with Obi-Wan on Dagobah.

 

He was a crazy old wizard that disabled the death star's tractor beam and sacrificed himself so that the others may escape? He championed Luke to Yoda the same way he could have championed Anakin had they not wasted their time with Qui-derp? Those aren't character flaws, BUT

 

I suppose qui-gon's championing of Anakin to the Jedi order is an important part that would teach obi-wan something, but other than raising the age limit for exceptional force adepts, I'm not sure what flaw Qui-Gon served to repair in the jedi order... in fact, i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have mattered since they were all wiped out. still, 30 seconds of the entire movie does not justify Qui-Gon being the more prominent jedi in the episode.

 

And if an entire episode of Qui-gon drinksalotandhasbrilliantplans wasn't bad enough, he's mentioned again at the end of episode 3... WHY? Like his entire role, there was no reason for it.

 

like RLM said, you COULD have qui-gon in there and it work... you know... if he were quiet and in the backround the way Obi-Wan was the entire movie.

Edited May 13, 2012 by BlazingShadow