Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

Writing is indeed one of the most ungrateful job and as Video Game writers you have more constraints than anybody else who already complains about their editors. Wonder why...

Speaking of feedback, here's a couple of things I wish you'd put on the shelves for some time.

Being THE hero

It gets old and no, not every player can be THE hero especially in a MMO.

SWG proved players can have fun being a simple crafter, Image designer, even a dancer

LOTRO played the character as riding on a side line of the main characters and it worked like a charm.

Betrayals

Enough of them especially as we can't really react to those betrayals in an appropriate manner.

One fits all classes story

It makes your story bland eventually cliche and most certainly not fitting every classes.

Just write and deliver one or two class story at a time and move the the next one.

Players will rotate through their characters and will start coming back

Over usage of specific characters

Revan, the emperor and such. Enough of them.

At some point I just wanted to get rid of them.

It felt like you guys did not know how to do something new.

Character taking possession of others

Darth zash taking possession of khem Val lasted way too long and became very annoying to hear in the end

The emperor in our character head became frustrating, especially as we don't feel we are in control of our character at all but puppets in the hands of the writers.

Elara and Quin come back

Totally felt rushed out and not polished at all.

Elara comes out of nowhere and suddenly she does things that makes no sense at all. No explanations no proper introduction, no nicely paced out crescendo leading to a momentum.

Then players do have to choose between a faction OR a companion. Why can't we simply put an end to Quin and go with the empire? Or why can't we support the republic and leverage Quin?

Again you take control of the player character on the wrong decisions.

Iokah

Also feels like rushed out. The way you bring in the empire and the republic fighting for a newly discovered super weapon makes no sense at all. BTW the idea of the super weapon was already getting old, adding the god stuff and a such was even worse.

My take is, for whatever reason there's a tendency in SWTOR to overdo things and eventually not properly polish them. We can see it in building and space ship designs, gear, etc... up to story. I dunno, think smaller, avoid overdoing stuff. It's great to have overdone stuff but when it's the norm it becomes bland and unappealing or should I say it turns away players.

Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

 

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

I don't think the problem isn't necessarily KotFE story that forced people out as much as it was focusing on only one playstyle for such a long period of time ... BIG mistake in an MMO and even bigger mistake was the business model used that allowed me to sub once and get it all for $15. Waiting isn't a big deal for many gamers who have 10s -100s of other games to go and try out/complete etc. In fact for me personally it made the whole KoTFE experience more pleasant as the story felt less disjointed (though still fairly poor by previous standards).

They key to maximizing the amount of people playing and paying is variety and catering to as many audiences as possible (story, solo, casual, group, pvp). If you can't do that for whatever reason then your game will suffer and it will bleed players.

It seems like this (variety) is the direction the game is heading in now but my concern is the budget has been slashed due to previous performance meaning there is only so much they can do and put out.

With budget cuts there must come a sort of critical mass point where you simply no longer have the development required to keep your MMO viable in terms of player numbers and it's all down hill from there as the lessening financial performance means less budget ... I just hope this isn't the case here yet and things can be turned around.

I pity whatever project Ben Irving moved to if he is in any sort of leadership position what so ever as I lay a lot of the blame at his doorstep for the reduced player number in this game along with James Ohlen, is he still around?

The next expansion will tell us more based on how much content is in it. If it's as light or lighter than 5.0 then that's an issue.

I would not go into blaming Ben so much because we don't really know how much his hands where tied by James and other executives. Still guess your last sentence and the one below paint a pretty good portrait of the game and the communication.

Ben Irving ... RNG is exciting? I 100% blame him ... pretty sure they didn't force him to say that when he thought the complete opposite.

Also looking at improvements within the game and in the attitude of the community as a whole since Keith took over tends to lend weight to the blame at Ben's doorstep. Unless of course not only did Keith get the job but they released the chains that had previously kept Ben from doing a great job... I don't buy it.

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

Thank you for this. Between Galactic Command and this example, you've given us a pretty good idea of what the devs consider to be too much sunk cost. While I still think that the players' feedback about GC was early enough to have abandoned or heavily modified GC, I can see why the KotFE couldn't be modified that much.

Is it possible we can get a description on the thought process that went into the "story only, literally nothing else" direction the game took these past couple of years, and when and why did you decide to change?

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

Charles, I am going to be straight with you.

KOTFE and KOTET did not feel like Star Wars, and turning Vitiate into Valkorion felt like a major writing cop out.

Since you say you compressed those beats into the 2 expansions, I sincerely hope now you have enough time to move beyond the whole mess, and get back to the story players fell in love with, which was the Pre-KotFE and KotET story.

To be clear - I LOVE just about everything NON STORY about those expansions, and the quality of life improvements to the game were STELLAR.

But people left over the story direction of the game. There were post after post in the forums about a month after KOTFE dropped of people leaving because they felt their story up until KOTFE was just crapped on and dismissed to make way for a totally different story that for many people, failed to feel like Star Wars.

As for the way forward, I have no idea what limits or constraints you have in terms of budget and what everyone is willing to do. Zakuul itself isn't a terrible place or planet, but how it was handled was very bad. Is there ANY shot at going back, if not now, maybe in the future, and actually changing the story with new cutscenes and dialogue, but re-using the assets? Maybe make Vitiate and Valkorion separate characters, and change to story to one that better fits what came before?

You have to understand, the main issue with the story people have is that it ignored or only paid lip service to the beats of all the stories that came before KotFE, and it felt patronizing for anyone heavily invested in the story.

I realize that may be hard to hear, especially as someone who wrote the story, but while the production value went up for KotFE, it just delivered the wrong beats in every way possible and was very off-putting to those people invested in their character's story, and I can't sugar coat that.

Please, get players back to their stories and back to the war between Sith and Republic. And really try harder to remain true to who each character is for each class - Shadow of Revan did this well, even while having a unified story.

Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

Now this is the sort of feedback the community needs to see (feedback should be give and take yes?)- not just what I quoted but all of it, I appreciate this and the insight it provides.

Now to the quoted part ... would it really be so bad just to do something really lame story wise and return all companions in one hit? Don't worry about it making too much sense in regards to KoTFE/KoTeT - sounds like you've somewhat wrote yourself into a corner once you had to scrap the other plans.

At this stage people will be more appreciative of just getting their companions back than they would be of it being "crap writing" and then you can move forward from there at least.

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

After reading this post, I feel sad too. I'm only one person with one opinion but I really really wish you guys had stuck with the original plan. We would probably have all our companions back, and back in a meaningful way if you had. If your plans for the ongoing story had been communicated to the players ahead of time, the feedback might have been different. Players were giving feedback but doing it "blind" without all the information. But maybe with the new rules of communication this sort of thing won't happen again *fingers crossed*

My other concern is how do you know that the people who post on these forums are actually the "majority of players"? It may be that the majority of players don't post on forums, and had totally different opinions from the ones who do. I'm not saying this IS the case, just "what if" it was. I'd rather you had sent out a survey to all players before making drastic changes, but maybe for reasons I'm not aware of, that wasn't a viable option.

I do appreciate how hard you guys are trying, but in the case of KOTFE/KOTET I wish you had turned a deaf ear:(

Charles, please have more confidence in your own creativity and ideas. People love to complain and you know you can't please everyone, unfortunately. Just my 2 cents.

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

Thank you for the elaborate post on your view on the story as well as how feedback works with it, it is very much appreciated

What I always wanted to ask regarding KotFE and KotET however is this: why weren't we given the opportunity to truly rejoin our original factions? The story could have still played out very much the same in main lines, but from the perspective of the Sith Empire or Galactic Republic. If I may ask, what was the motivation to force our characters into the role of the Outlander/Commander and to create this Alliance? It is an interesting concept, surely, but as you have noticed in the feedback since then there is a huge call for the return of Empire vs Republic, Jedi vs Sith themes.

Is there a possibility for the future to return to our original factions? Or will our character remain locked within the Alliance-narrative and have to stay the Commander? I really miss being able to fight for the Sith Empire, but not as an ally like Iokath introduced but because I am a part of it. If I may be honest, I enjoy replaying the original class stories of the 8 classes more than I enjoy replaying KotFE and KotET. They're great stories, but they don't allow me to be part of the faction that I wanted to be a part of or fight for the Sith Order like I always wanted to. I really miss that in the newer expansions and story additions

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

Charles, I agree that the monthly chapter plan did not succeed as was originally planned. That said, I feel the result from a creative story point of view of "cutting corners" to fit the audience is just an excuse to do less work.

I'd like to point out with the Iokath companion returns

As you explained the express need to return companions has superseded the need to justify it in the text of the story. Essentially trivializing the returns.

Its these kind of details that matter in story telling.

Furthermore, its game mechanics that are getting in the way of storytelling. In an effort to give each class companions capable of each role (tank, heals, dps) you've flooded the cast. Personality that was possible in the individual class stories has slowly diminished to the point I don't know the difference between a warrior outlander and an inquisitor outlander. Alliance alerts are tacked on content that let you have more companions, only to have them be passive bystanders.

I for one, would have welcomed a whole trilogy of chapters and important companions returns, but that is not to be. At the very least, make it look like the story means as much to you as it does to the audience. You are in a great position (a dream job if you will. I have an MFA in creative writing and I have to work at a newspaper. Lets just say creativity is frowned on.) to tell the story, to innovate, fulfill the story obligation to your audience. Unlike Keith and Eric's post on feedback, I feel like you are just justifying poor writing to your biggest fans.

Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible.

Oh dude, that really is too bad...

I was really looking forward to having them return in a grand fashion.

I was really dissapointed with Quinn and Dorne tbh, I really hope that none of my Assassins companions return in a way like that.

 

Being THE hero

It gets old and no, not every player can be THE hero especially in a MMO.

SWG proved players can have fun being a simple crafter, Image designer, even a dancer

LOTRO played the character as riding on a side line of the main characters and it worked like a charm.

 

Betrayals

Enough of them especially as we can't really react to those betrayals in an appropriate manner.

 

One fits all classes story

It makes your story bland eventually cliche and most certainly not fitting every classes.

Just write and deliver one or two class story at a time and move the the next one.

Players will rotate through their characters and will start coming back

This I feel plays into another issue, I find with Bioware games in general, is the player as hero doesn't allow for a proper character arc because you can't have the events in the story actually change the player perception and feelings. If the player character (ie main character) can't reach a point of no return within themselves, then they've been shorted on the bill of goods in the narrative promise. Betrayals, revelations, and surprises will not hide this--which is the familiar trope here.

After reading this post, I feel sad too. I'm only one person with one opinion but I really really wish you guys had stuck with the original plan. We would probably have all our companions back, and back in a meaningful way if you had. If your plans for the ongoing story had been communicated to the players ahead of time, the feedback might have been different. Players were giving feedback but doing it "blind" without all the information. But maybe with the new rules of communication this sort of thing won't happen again *fingers crossed*

 

This 100%. You let the unpopularity of monthly chapters kill companion stories. Say for example, if Kotet had 12 chapters on release and returned 3 more old companions telling a story that is meaningful to the companions, while also giving the story follow its dues because all the chapters would be together. In other words, Kotfe 10-16 would have been better if you just released them all at once and gave us the whole story in this way.

I have a question that maybe Keith or Eric can answer, and if not, I just want this to be out there, since this seems to be the popular threat. Once upon a time, if you bought an item from one of the Cartel Reputation vendors on the fleet, once you equipped it or used it, it would unlock in Collections (That is how I unlocked Mira's and the Hazardous Physician Armor Set.) However, sometime in the last few years, this was changed so that the items from those vendors no longer unlock in collections (Which is frustrating for those of us that would rather buy an armor set like Marka Ragnos's set without having to spend an extravagant amount of credits on the GTN). Was there a reason for this change, and is there a possiblity that we may be able to unlock those Rep vendor armors in collections again?

Also, would there ever be an opportunity to bring back those Cartel Packs that had reputation paths (Bounty Packs, Stronghold Packs, Shadow Packs, ect) so those of us who were not able to max out Reputation could make those out? I know it was tried with the Slot Machine Deco, but the feedback was less that stellar, but maybe there might be an alternative that players and BWA like (Short of just auto granting everyone Legend status for those Reputation paths?)

PS: Sorry if this is worded weirdly, I just got home from my summer math class... Smart move, me! haha

i think I may understand your question and a guy did a nice video on it

i think I may understand your question and a guy did a nice video on it

 

I think there might be some confusion, which is my fault, (well my math classes fault. lol :o). This thread actually talks about it better than I can.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=821052

The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

This makes me sad too! I think I would've loved the original plan that you described.

Regarding the monthly wait: my favourite manga has a monthly release (for context, chapters are 45 pages each). On a bigger scale, my favourite novel series by a living author has had a gap of about five years between each book for the last three volumes. I can wait for things if they're good.

So... I beg you... while we all want companions back, can you please take the time you need to make the writing meet a high standard? I just didn't feel that way with Elara and Quinn in Iokath. Their dialogue and actions were far too similar to each other. I don't want expediency at the cost of quality. It really doesn't feel fair if the people who wait longer get a return that isn't as good as Kaliyo's or Jorgan's.

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

While I appreciate your vision the problem with it was that it was just taking so damn long. You should have been more up front about what the plan was from the start. The silence that has come from the Devs on what is going on was where you screwed up. If you had communicated this from the start people would have felt differently about many things. If you want people to be patient you have to give them a reason to be patient such as telling them WHY, instead of the silence we were met with. The whole choices matter thing you guys harped on fell on deaf ears because we never saw our choices actually matter, the pay off was so far away by then I did not even remember what my choices were. I enjoyed the chapters and many of the other things that you have done with the last two expansions. I have even liked GC as a non raider and somebody who hates pvp it has given me a path to really good gear, I love that. However, your misstep has been with companions. I am beginning to feel like we have to many of them and I want my classic companions back. Instead of new ones give me my old ones back with new story for them

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

I was not pleased to read this.

You started of very well with KotFE and KoTET but you missed the boat entirely.

The introduction of a third branch of the force was exciting and had the promise of all new stories, so much potential and you let it wither and die with a new weapon.....

We had chance to move away from the traditional yet boring Sith vs Jedi, Imp vs Pub into a new massive "grey area" that could have established entirely new paradigms.

I am also disappointed at the sheer lack of meaningful character interaction with companions, especially the ones you are supposed to have a relationship of some kind with.

Lastly, my ship NEEDS a crew!!

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

I'm still in awe over all the recent communication...not only the amount but the CONTENT. You guys are actually telling us real, meaningful info, and I can't tell you enough how appreciated that is.

I found your insights on how you handled KOTFE and KOTET to be really interesting, so thank you for sharing that. I definitely felt the "compression" of the story and suspected what had happened. I'm very disappointed to hear that it sounds like you don't plan on bringing back the companions each with their own chapters, but I also applaud the changes you made it KOTET. It felt like a much more cohesive and compelling story.

One of the big mistakes made in KOTFE (IMO) was that the game and story had taken a drastic turn, yet the players were left utterly in the dark as to the direction things were headed. I think if there had been some guideposts set up for us to see - that you had 3 major acts planned, that yes you intended to bring all the companions back, etc - people would have been far less anxious. However, I still think that dragging out the companion returns, and especially saving the best for last, was a major misstep.

The other major part that pushed me away was feeling like all the individuality that made my characters fun and unique was removed from them. They were all handed the same generic uniform, the same companions, and it showed. I would have much rather seen several parallel story arcs, if not one for each class, then perhaps one for tech-users and one for Force-users. I would gladly choose a shorter, less drawn out story that was relevant to my specific character, than one long story that tried to incorporate all classes together. You could have even taken the exact chapters as they were written and split them apart, giving everyone a few "shared" chapters, and then dividing the rest as separate tracks. Let the Force users meet Satele in the forest, for example, while the tech users could have raided the treasury. That kind of replayability is what keeps me coming back to play character after character, and what gives the story a richness that doesn't go stale.

Thanks for listening, Keith and Charles. I am heartened to know that you are hearing our feedback. Keep the communication coming!

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

I am probably one of the few that actually liked the direction to get away from imperial vs. republic as there has been no way my agent could have left the empire without this story. I know people think that is stupid but come on why in the world would my agent stay in the empire after them brainwashing her. I like the idea of a third choice for my characters instead of being pigeon hold into the normal republic vs. empire all the time.

I would have prefer some different varieties for each of my character and them being able to make a choice but a third faction was not that problematic for me. I like to roleplay so my roleplay is a bit different than most, I don't use the story in the game for the roleplay. We use bits and pieces and come up with our own stories so we are not one of the thousands on the sith council, jedi council, etc. We create unique stories.

I do wish that the companions had a better story and they returned a bit sooner but I did enjoy the direction you guys were heading, even if there was some things I would have enjoyed you doing a different way.

Thank you for at least giving a little better meaning to my characters by giving us a new faction for the time we had. I actually enjoyed it.

The other major part that pushed me away was feeling like all the individuality that made my characters fun and unique was removed from them. They were all handed the same generic uniform, the same companions, and it showed. I would have much rather seen several parallel story arcs, if not one for each class, then perhaps one for tech-users and one for Force-users. I would gladly choose a shorter, less drawn out story that was relevant to my specific character, than one long story that tried to incorporate all classes together. You could have even taken the exact chapters as they were written and split them apart, giving everyone a few "shared" chapters, and then dividing the rest as separate tracks. Let the Force users meet Satele in the forest, for example, while the tech users could have raided the treasury.

I agree with you 100%. I really wish this was how the story went. None of my Smuggler's wish to be a commander. My Bounty Hunters just want to enjoy the thrill of the hunt and get paid. I also find it bogus that Vit/Valk would be interested in the life of my Troopers or Agents. That is why I havent played through the "Knights of..." story line with them. One Jedi and one Sith are enough, it seems. Correction... my Sniper did play through KOTFE and KOTET, but only for the Dark vs Light achievements and because he gets back 4 of his companions officially.

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

It makes me kinda sad to hear this even though it was fairly obvious it was cut short. There are a lot of open plot holes, especially with the gravestone and that mysterious place inside it. I think there's something inside it if you look closely! Also the part where you save Admiral Ranken, the republic or the zakuulians didn't really matter in the end, while it seemed like it really would.

I personally did greatly enjoyed kotfe/kotet! But I can see where people are coming from.

I think if there had been some guideposts set up for us to see - that you had 3 major acts planned, that yes you intended to bring all the companions back, etc - people would have been far less anxious. However, I still think that dragging out the companion returns, and especially saving the best for last, was a major misstep.

Agree with this. I postponed starting KotFE for several months because I didn't want to lose my favourite companions. I honestly would've postponed the start much longer if there'd been some kind of clear roadmap of three major acts. And I wouldn't have minded doing that. I'd have been happy to wait. There are plenty of other things to do in the game. (For one, I came back after a long hiatus to discover strongholds!)

The other major part that pushed me away was feeling like all the individuality that made my characters fun and unique was removed from them. They were all handed the same generic uniform, the same companions, and it showed. I would have much rather seen several parallel story arcs, if not one for each class, then perhaps one for tech-users and one for Force-users. I would gladly choose a shorter, less drawn out story that was relevant to my specific character, than one long story that tried to incorporate all classes together. You could have even taken the exact chapters as they were written and split them apart, giving everyone a few "shared" chapters, and then dividing the rest as separate tracks. Let the Force users meet Satele in the forest, for example, and while the tech users could have raided the treasury. That kind of replayability is what keep me coming back to play character after character, and what gives the story a richness that doesn't go stale.

I completely agree with this and have posted as much in other threads. Fine if it makes sense for us to no longer be strictly Republic or Imperial due to the Eternal Empire. Force and non-force would've been a perfect point of difference to let the story branch a bit before drawing the branches back together.

However, while we are giving feedback, I would like to mention some things that I think the Zakuul story got right, because I don't feel it's fair to only criticize when there were a lot of things I enjoyed.

• Cutscenes were beautifully directed - felt like film quality. Music, voice acting, camera angles, scene transitions - all good. I'm sure there's stuff I'm unfairly not praising that I didn't even notice because it was done so smoothly.
  
• Story arcs of Senya, Arcann, and Koth were interesting, well-paced, and showed great reactivity to player choice. It wasn't all identical until some final "kill or don't kill" decision - some things were set in motion in earlier chapters and didn't bear fruit until much later. Kudos for this.
  
• Reintroduction of companions through chapters was great in story terms (not focusing here on the rather repetitive gameplay of Kaliyo's chapter). Vette's return seemed to suffer somewhat by being combined with Gault's, but I think this debt was repaid by the part of KotET where she's an obligatory companion.
  
• Star Fortresses gave just enough of a story "shell" well-connected to the main plot to make me want to do this content to 100% completion (while otherwise being a player who doesn't tend to repeat flashpoints).
  

@Charles.

 

Thank for the attempt of an example of the kind I asked for.

 

But I'd love to know what meaningful choices and consequences do YOU think were in KOTFE /KOTET?

 

There were none.

 

With the exception of the presence or absence of a few Companions EVERYONE ended KOTET exactly the same as everyone else. Even the "choice" on your leadership style once on the eternal throne was effectively meaningless.

 

Where was the choice on Iokath to tell both the Empire and the Republic to "get off my planet", as I am now the commander of the most powerful force in the galaxy.

 

Given what happened the first time I approached Iokath why would I be moronically stupid enough to go in with the entire Eternal Fleet, without first sending a few probes to see what would happen - we know for a fact the Eternal Fleet has access to probes, it was a probe encounter that kicked off KOTFE Ch.1.

 

There have been no meaningful or intelligent choices anywhere in KOTFE/ET or Iokath so far.

 

 

All The Best

I disagree on this. Do believe me though, I did not like KOTFE/ET but the Arcann and Senya choices led to different cutscenes and dialogue options. When it comes to "choices mattering" it's not about the ending. I am ok with the ending being the same. It's HOW you approach the ending and if you receive different dialogue options/different cutscenes by choosing differently.

I thank you Charles for your comment and explaining on this matter.

Much appreciated!