My definition

• a single in game action: one player ability is cast.
  

 

My guess as to your and Phillip's definition:

• a single in game action: a single MS Windows input event is sent from the operating system to the SWTOR client. NOTE: most computer operating systems have separate events for keyboard 'a' pressed down and keyboard 'a' released (often called 'a down' and 'a up' events). For the purposes of SWTOR, we will ignore keyboard and button up events and only consider 'down events'. I.e. receiving 'a down' event followed by 'a up' event counts as a single action by this definition, not 2 actions.
  

 

Consider the following scenario

• we are a level 55 sage with key bindings
  
  • 1 - project (force, 30m range)
    
  • 2 - strike (melee, 4m range)
    
  • 3 - unbound (i.e. '3' is bound to a quickslot but the quick slot has no ability)
    

  [*] our current enemy target is 20m away and we have clear line of sight

  [*] we press the '3' key. Was there an in game action?

  [*] we press the key '2' and the strike ability is not activated because the target is too far away. Was there an in game action?

  [*] we press the '1' key, project is activated and our enemy is smashed to tiny bits (praise be to Revan). Was there an in game action?

 

By my definition, pressing '3' and pressing '2' in the scenario above does not result in an in game action. Apparently by your and Phillip's definition, even pressing '3' is an in game action.

Your understanding and definition is a little off. Yes, if key '3' was pressed, nothing happens that you can see. That doesn't mean that nothing happens though. When you press the key, in the background a check is made. The game shows you pressing the '3' button, but because nothing is bound, the game doesn't show any ability.

For the '2' button, the difference is that instead of the ability playing out, an error comes back showing that that ability can't be used. It doesn't mean that the game just ignores your click.

The whole point of a GCD is to balance macro use. The fact that phillip is claiming you can't use macro's when they have a GCD in place is down right ridiculous. Macro's have been around for a very long time and they have a lot of legitimate reasons for being in games.

Some of those reasons are :=

They assist people with disabilities ( RSI, amputated limbs, swollen joints, disfigurement) in playing.

They give the player the option to customize their keyboard / controller configuration in a way that is useful to them.

They give the user a more effective means of managing the excessive ability bloat in games.

They give players with hardware limitations (3 button mouse and a mini keyboard) the ability to extend the amount of keys available to them.

etc, etc

The simple fact is.. people would be far less likely to use third party macro programs if Bioware included macro support in swtor. This whole debate reminds me of the napster vs music industry. No amount of policing / litigation by the music industry was ever going to stop people downloading music. It took them years to finally realize this and adapt.

you guys need to put a macro system in if your not going to let people use there high end keyboards or mouse or what ever to make up for what you guys did not put in

I don't know about others but I only have 5 fingers I can only hit 5 or maybe 6 keys at best some of the rotations have as many as 8 things in them there is just no way you can hit everything that needs to be hit with out a $50 mouse with 14 keys or macros

which is why I am a commando for a main (only 5 keys in main rotation on both heal and dps spec)

or guardian with has 7 keys (which I do less then 1/2 the dps with)

As is I have no hope of doing anything more then story with any other classes then commando or the imp version of it

Interesting approach there funkiestj.

 

I thought I was pretty clear that one input action must equal only one action in game, but obviously not - so please find below red X's next to the correct answers.

 

Enjoy!

One of the examples features Huittball. Now, on Ebon Hawk, we have a guild or two who like to point out the words of Baron Deathmark "cheating is encouraged" when they hack. It's not hard to find. They talk about hacking on the forums, and even named their guild after a cheat device.

So, while cheating in huttball might be "against the TOS", it is certainly being allowed.

would be nice to have a csr team enter warzones and witness the ld50's and wooks of the swtor world

do the cheats then actually do something on a regular basis they can put a quick end to the cheats .

doesn't matter if hardware based or not every key stroke is recorded and readable by a quality

dev. having been a server admin for counter-strike I learned to spot cheats .

and it is becoming all to obvious nothing is being done when people use them in non-ranked

yesterday watched 3 lag bombs as I call them occur .

bolster has been broken since beta and should just be automatic 2 stuns immune for 15 sec

or diminished returns with each stun after first.

hell even if they just went to youtube and watched but maybe they want more paying clients to convert to ftp.

yet when I watch a video of someone cheating then look on forums to see that swtor bought the

excuse that it was an oops granted this is old http://www.twitch.tv/ladisputepvp/b/329001511 .

these jokers knew what they were doing.

here is my idea if a person is caught cheating swtor has a marco of there own stating so and so of guild .......is banned for x days for cheating and it is a global message that activates upon that persons next log in.

ah wishful thinking right.

+

 

Agree. Voice chat should be banned. It is unfair to those that don't have it.

Here is my problem, your macro gains just you an advantage. Voice chat is there for anyone to use that while giving a communication advantage doesn't gain you any advantage other than communication. As much as I enjoy this game I would drop it in a heartbeat if it had no voice communication allowed.

They have done an excellent job of preventing this game from becoming like WOW where you are required to have so many external programs installed to just be able to play it on a somewhat level field. Rules are Rules, if people are not good enough to play the game under said rules and have to have automation in order to win then maybe this isn't the game for those people.

It's not that cut and dry.

Yes, there are people who absolutely, unequivocally use macros with the intended purpose of gaining an advantage. Politeassassin brought to light a guy who is abusing the macro system with the intended purpose of gaining an advantage. The advantage that he gains is debatable but its the guys intent that worries me. This type of player would literally do anything to gain an upperhand. If he could hack the game for an advantage and knew he wouldn't be caught, there is no doubt in my mind that he would do it.

On the other hand, there are players who macro for other reasons. Suppose stephen hawking decided to play swtor. He would need to use eye recognition software in conjunction with pixel readers to be able to move his character around and trigger abilities. Would Stephen Hawking be a cheat? Under the present TOS, yes. However, if Bioware decided to take action against him they would in all likelihood have the book thrown at them for blatant discrimination. It would be better to turn a blind eye. Disabled people have the right to play a video game just as much as everyone else.

Macro software comes with just about every piece of gaming hardware for the past 15 years. They are available to everyone, everywhere and at anytime. This is why it absolutely baffles me that Bioware has taken such an archaic stance. Me personally, I couldn't care less who is using them. I expect people to be using them against me. I've been playing computer games competitively for over 15 years and during that time I've learned that the ability to "push" buttons doesn't rank very high on the skill chart. What separates players is observational awareness, intuitive adaptation, the ability to foresee how a player will respond if you take a certain action against them and counter, and positional awareness. The ability to push a button is so low on the skill chart it's not even worth worrying about. This sort of makes me chuckle because I am forever screaming at 30k pugs to 'push buttons."

Map hackers and autobotters in battlefield 2 are a perfect case in point. In my time playing competitive BF2 I ran into hundreds upon hundreds of them. These clowns, despite having all these supposed advantages amazingly never did very well. They were always outsmarted and outplayed. At the end of the day, all they got out of it was a banned account and a **** kill death ratio.

PVP is a SMALL part of this game.

PVP is the ONLY part of this game

Your understanding and definition is a little off. Yes, if key '3' was pressed, nothing happens that you can see. That doesn't mean that nothing happens though. When you press the key, in the background a check is made. The game shows you pressing the '3' button, but because nothing is bound, the game doesn't show any ability.

Your definition of in game action is : A windows input event is passed from the Windows Operating system to the SWTOR client process. Why create a new term (in game action)? Why not simply say "any windows input event"?

Again, trying to use everyday english without precisely defining a nomenclature is the problem here.

If I said "I kept smashing the 1 key on my keyboard but nothing happened in game" you would think I meant "no windows input event was sent to SWTOR" rather than "my toon took no action"? Okay .... very intuitive definition of in game you have there.

PVP is the ONLY part of this game

Troll attempt ? *scratches head*

PVP is the ONLY part of this game

LOL, didn't think very hard about that one did you...

Chiming in....

 

I'll be as clear as I can be.

 

Automation of the game in any way is against the ToS. This includes macro'ing in order to respec during Warzone matches.

 

Remapping keys on a keyboard (or Nostromo or Logitech) device so that one key press == one click or ability cast within the game is fine. Using a programmable keyboard or software macro so that one key press == multiple clicks or ability casts in the game is not.

 

Hopefully that doesn't leave room for 'interpretation'. If it does, ask a binary question and I'll give a yes/no

http://gamerant.com/e3-2011-razer-st...ouse-jw-91005/

as you can see for this article they team up with razer to have this keyboard made for the game and its big selling point is that u can macro the keys to do many task at once so like the OP ask is the customer right for using it to its full function or is the company right in not wanting u to use it after u buy it

And as far as them promoting the item u can get a Razor crystal in-game as far as I see they are promoting this keyboard, mouse, and headset.

found this in another forum post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6498128#post6498128

Woodynz said

This raises many questions, as I am sure the US has laws that would mirror those in NZ

ie: Consumer Guarantees Act 1993

9 Guarantee that goods comply with description

(1) Subject to section 41, where goods are supplied by description to a consumer, there is a guarantee that the goods correspond with the description.

(2) A supply of goods is not prevented from being a supply by description by reason only that, being exposed for sale or hire, they are selected by a consumer.

(3) If the goods are supplied by reference to a sample or demonstration model as well as by description, the guarantees in this section and in section 10 will both apply.

(4) Where the goods fail to comply with the guarantee in this section,—

(a) Part 2 gives the consumer a right of redress against the supplier; and

(b) Part 3 may give the consumer a right of redress against the manufacturer.

Compare: 1908 No 168 s 15; 1971 No 147 s 14(2); Trade Practices Act 1974 s 70(2) (Aust)

It would then be fair to ask, do we request Full Compensation/Refund from Razor? EA? or Bioware, aswell as damages. (*ya for NZ Law stating that internet sales are still required to abide by NZ Law)

The RoC

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate".

The key wording here is "Accelerated Rate", as this is the measurement for which this rule applies, a speed hack increases the rate at which information is sent, ergo a no no.

A keyboard or mouse macro, which is utilised in the promotional links above still adhere to the Global Cool Down of 1.5 seconds, so therefore there is no accelerated rate being applied

This is an area of concern, as it illustrates a failure of departmental heads to communicate openly amongst themselves not to mention the community moderators on the factory floor enforcing their unclear understanding of the rules.

Did no one in Promotions/Sales talk to the lads upstairs hey Razors wanting our Corporate Name and Logo on their new Mouse n Keyboard, it does this, this and this... is that all cool with everyone here in Austin?

The ship has sailed on all that though, so the only real question that should be asked is, "This functionality is clearly something that 'many' players want for their game, so what is Bioware looking to do to here; Facilitate or hampen this?

Will we get the go ahead from Bioware to use these simple tools for ease of life, or will someone put their hand up and say "yeup sorry we goofed with these Keyboards and Mice, we are clearly in breach of common sense & good business practices, so send them all back for full refunds"?...

*not likely to happen, but I am still interested to see.

Stop beating the dead horse, then read the dev's post and ask yourself why you just spent all the time asking a question which was already answered.

it is not beating a dead horse just trying to get better clarification on the matter because it stats in the TOS and RoC

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate".

so what is consider a accelerated rate because if u are just using a keyboard to ran the macro to push buttons for u it still has to go by the GCD so there is no accelerated rate I just want better clarification on this.

Also u have 2 different DEVs from what i have seen saying 2 different things so like i said i want a better understanding of this

Chiming in....

 

I'll be as clear as I can be.

 

Automation of the game in any way is against the ToS. This includes macro'ing in order to respec during Warzone matches.

 

Remapping keys on a keyboard (or Nostromo or Logitech) device so that one key press == one click or ability cast within the game is fine. Using a programmable keyboard or software macro so that one key press == multiple clicks or ability casts in the game is not.

 

Hopefully that doesn't leave room for 'interpretation'. If it does, ask a binary question and I'll give a yes/no

if its not unattended or accelerated how can it breach TOS, the official hardware and product description ENDORSED and PROMOTED by this website described the product abilities and made no reference to TOS considerations, i purchased the items based on specific product details. how can you sell a product to someone then perhaps ban them for using features you promoted to sell the item.......

IF its not unattended or accelerated how do official products sold for those benefits breach TOS by using macros?

completely bloody backwards....

it is not beating a dead horse just trying to get better clarification on the matter because it stats in the TOS and RoC

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate".

so what is consider a accelerated rate because if u are just using a keyboard to ran the macro to push buttons for u it still has to go by the GCD so there is no accelerated rate I just want better clarification on this.

Also u have 2 different DEVs from what i have seen saying 2 different things so like i said i want a better understanding of this

The commas seperate the ideas...

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate"

Each color is a different idea. "Accelerated Status" refers to "paterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status" The collections exploit is one such example. Gold farmers is another example.

Dupes, pretty obvious. Cheats, same. Stored rapid keystrokes probably refers to programmed rotations within an external program, whereas add-ons may refer to texture hacks, minimaps showing enemy locations, speed hacks, that type of thing. Those type of cheats are found it many other games, so I find it unlikely this is an exception. As for macros, notice it's its own catagory. Macros. Period. End of story. If it's a macro, it's not allowed. The entire point behind macros is to allow players to perform a series of actions they would otherwise be unable to do. Rapid clicking for Hutt-ball spawn, automated space-mission completion programs, etc. Technically speaking, the only time you'd ever use a macro is to do something you can't normally do. In other words, you're utilizing an external program to gain an advantage in the game. Not allowed. Phillip made it pretty clear, I'm not sure how else to put it.

Macros. Period. End of story. If it's a macro, it's not allowed. The entirely point behind macros is to allow players to perform a series of actions they would otherwise be unable to do. Rapid clicking for Hutt-ball spawn, automated space-mission completion programs, etc. Technically speaking, the only time you'd ever use a macro is to do something you can't normally do. In other words, you're utilizing an external program to gain an advantage in the game. Not allowed. Phillip made it pretty clear, I'm not sure how else to put it.

SWTOR RAZER products CLEARLY promote these features as a selling point, and was a deciding factor in me purchasing the item. The SWTOR NAGA interface still allows macro playback editing options and the ability to assign macros to keys, its their product for goodness sake. I bought it for the abilities they advertised it had and would be able to do.. if its not automated (if im still pressing some keys) or unattended or accelerated. i'm going to use the features described, and that is not a breach of the TOS.

http://i43.tinypic.com/335cdfo.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2j0zihv.jpg

The commas seperate the ideas...

 

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate"

 

Each color is a different idea. "Accelerated Status" refers to "paterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status" The collections exploit is one such example. Gold farmers is another example.

 

Dupes, pretty obvious. Cheats, same. Stored rapid keystrokes probably refers to programmed rotations within an external program, whereas add-ons may refer to texture hacks, minimaps showing enemy locations, speed hacks, that type of thing. Those type of cheats are found it many other games, so I find it unlikely this is an exception. As for macros, notice it's its own catagory. Macros. Period. End of story. If it's a macro, it's not allowed. The entirely point behind macros is to allow players to perform a series of actions they would otherwise be unable to do. Rapid clicking for Hutt-ball spawn, automated space-mission completion programs, etc. Technically speaking, the only time you'd ever use a macro is to do something you can't normally do. In other words, you're utilizing an external program to gain an advantage in the game. Not allowed. Phillip made it pretty clear, I'm not sure how else to put it.

"Accelerated rate" is the key word here not macro or anything else but the word i highlight in red Accelerated rate" kind of hard to have an accelerated rate when no matter what u still have the global cool down of 1.5 seconds the only way to get around that is if u did something in the game folder which I dont think anyone is going to do. that fact that a keyboard can do multiple task at once still does not mean it is an accelerated rate because of the 1.5 second global colldown

SWTOR RAZER products CLEARLY promote these features as a selling point, and was a deciding factor in me purchasing the item. The SWTOR NAGA interface still allows macro playback editing options and the ability to assign macros to keys, its their product for goodness sake. I bought it for the abilities they advertised it had and would be able to do.. if its not automated (if im still pressing some keys) or unattended or accelerated. i'm going to use the features described, and that is not a breach of the TOS.

 

http://i43.tinypic.com/335cdfo.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2j0zihv.jpg

Pretty much this. You can't automate things with this though. You can simply set up multiple actions to one keybind. For example, you know those guys who magically get the huttball all the time? You can't do that with a razer macro. What you can do, however, is execute timed back to back attacks. If you so chose.

The commas seperate the ideas...

 

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate"

 

Those type of cheats are found it many other games, so I find it unlikely this is an exception. As for macros, notice it's its own catagory. Macros. Period. End of story. If it's a macro, it's not allowed. The entirely point behind macros is to allow players to perform a series of actions they would otherwise be unable to do. Rapid clicking for Hutt-ball spawn, automated space-mission completion programs, etc. Technically speaking, the only time you'd ever use a macro is to do something you can't normally do. In other words, you're utilizing an external program to gain an advantage in the game. Not allowed. Phillip made it pretty clear, I'm not sure how else to put it.

Idnewton, sadly I belive that you have lumped all these issues into one category.

The title for this forum is "Macros for pvp, respecing, grabbing huttballs. Legal?" the author has asked a very specific question with regards to picking up the Hutt Ball, my understanding is that at present this function is being used by some via a macro, which in layman's terms would be something like (*for the WoW macro minded)

/pickuphuttball (*repeat function).

The only way such a thing would work is if picking up the huttball was independant of the Global Cool Down, which at present I believe it is.

Oddly enough you and others seem to have confussed some peoples questioning of the use of Macro's with Speed Hacks, or Pixel Detection Automation Programs (Auto Queing for WZ's, AFK Space Combat), this is not the case.

The questions that many people on the forums are asking is in regards to Macro's

(*Specifically those functions availible with http://gamerant.com/e3-2011-razer-star-wars-old-republic-keyboard-mouse-jw-91005/ said hardware, which has been endorsed and promoted by EA/Bioware).

If Bioware believes that people with said hardware have an unfair advantage then Bioware 'should' have said "Hell No!" to Razor when permission was sought to use Biowares/EA's intellectual property in conjunction with these Keyboards and Mice.

With Respect to people Spamming /pickuphuttball (*or whatever the command is), if this is a concern Bioware can fix this simply by Modifying whatever the command is to respect it's Own Global Cool Down. ie: I have just right clicked to pick up the Huttball... I am now Locked out for 1.5- 2 seconds before I can repeat this function.

Personally the State of PvP concerns could be fixed simply with alittle common sense, People are typing /stuck in WZ's *Awesome already removed function, People Respecting Heals/Tank/Dps, whatever in WZ's within seconds... No worries Gray Out Respecing in WZ's almost every other MMO does not allow Respecing or even changing Gear in WZ's/Battlegrounds/Areana's whatever their perspective PvP enviroment is.

It is dissapointing that some folks have made blanket statements to Macro's being a breach of the RoC when 99% of people are not doing anything dubious with Macro's they are all still obeying the 1.5 second Global Cool Down.

Which by definition would mean that there is no messurable "Accelerated Rate" between those that have the keyboards and mice, and those that do not; again failing to meet the mark for "Unfair Advantages".

Somedays it is just easier to take a deep breath and think about a situation before screaming your house down when in a PvP match "You FN Hacking blah blah"... if the floor was cleaned with your toon in a match think for a second, does your 20-30 minutes PVP'ing a month make you a Pro? Could your Team have worked better as a group, does your gear measure up to the more Hardcore PvP'ers around.

Personally I am hoping Bioware/EA elaborate further upon the issues of Macro's as at present the stance of the Forum Moderators would put Bioware/EA in a very sticky situation legally for breaches of advertising & consumer rights.

People are asking for Clarifications so that we may all continue to adhear to the rules, not break them.

 

People are asking for Clarifications so that we may all continue to adhear to the rules, not break them.

Perhaps they could sticky this thread, or at least make a new one to clarify their stance on macros. It could be helpful, both for new and old players.

Since no one in this thread seems capable of delineating between ideas and their corresponding explainations, it seems I must seperate the other, already clearly understandable, half of the post.

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate"

 

Each color is a different idea. "Accelerated Status" refers to "paterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status" The collections exploit is one such example. Gold farmers is another example.

 

Dupes, pretty obvious. Cheats, same. Stored rapid keystrokes probably refers to programmed rotations within an external program, whereas add-ons may refer to texture hacks, minimaps showing enemy locations, speed hacks, that type of thing. Those type of cheats are found it many other games, so I find it unlikely this is an exception. As for macros, notice it's its own catagory. Macros. Period. End of story. If it's a macro, it's not allowed. The entire point behind macros is to allow players to perform a series of actions they would otherwise be unable to do. Rapid clicking for Hutt-ball spawn, automated space-mission completion programs, etc. Technically speaking, the only time you'd ever use a macro is to do something you can't normally do. In other words, you're utilizing an external program to gain an advantage in the game. Not allowed. Phillip made it pretty clear, I'm not sure how else to put it.

I think some of you are missing the point here. You do not need macros. Ever. Macros are only used to compensate for a player's inability to match the macro's actions.

This thread is hilarious. Sooo many people trying to lawyer every word to justify macroing.

And as for those whining about the Razor. FML.

Go watch a car commercial which is clearly marketing for speed, buy said car, get a speeding ticket, then go visit the manufacturer's corporate HQ with your complaint. Post back here with pics pls. Bonus points for video showing more than 3 people laughing at you at once.

No you are missing the point how can it be a cheat when no matter what you still have a global cool down on your abilities of 1.5 seconds I can sit here and hit my keys every 1.5 second or just mash them down and it does the same thing as a macro i still have to deal with the Global Cool Down that is built into the game. No matter what there is no way around the Global Cool Down of the abilities unless you are going into the game files and removing the line from it.

I am also sorry to say that in any business set up between business they talk and find out what a product can do before they say yes Razor u can make that product for us and put our game logo on it so BW and Lucas Arts know exactly what the hardware Razor was making for them. And if they did not know what these products can do then they should not have joined forces with Razor for it. But that cat is out of the bag so in the Long run the ToS and the RoC needs to be looked at again. For the reason no matter what a macro does or a person just massing the keys down or a person with fast fingers you still have to deal with the Global Cool Down of the abilities.