Mando Raiders tonight, SM on my Sniper. The Mara is experienced, the Jugg Tank and Op Healer are both new to the game. Silliness ensues.

 

At first we pull everything in sight. Again, new kids on the block, and rolling so quickly that I don't have time to explain attack orders, not to break CCs, etc, in any detail. I think the healer asked which hound we attacked first just as I was marking one, so I called it out. Tank jumped in before I could go over the little tidbits; keep the boss up top, wait until after your frozen to taunt back, healer don't run from the dogs when they switch aggro cause you can't escape anyway =p

 

We make it though, manage to survive some craziness in different areas that could have been avoided, with my death being the only one when everyone else got knocked off the bridge by one of the champion bots =p manage to survive insanity during the republic boarder fight. All of this while here and there the Mara is throwing off-hand comments about the tank having issues. Instead of explaining the deal, he's a complete phallus, clearly bothering the tank and making her rush even more. All he kept yelling was for the tank to take aggro, which while it could have been held better, the main reason he kept getting attacked was because he'd attack whatever target he pleased. Not burning down the weak so that even if they pull on him their dead too quickly to do anything, just swinging his little sabers at whatever tickled his fancy.

 

The pace gets in the way again as the tank initiates on the last set of turrets while I'm explaining something, and same thing as I'm attempting to do so again before Varad himself. We manage to get through as I CC the far turret each time we move areas and everyone's staying on the near one mostly as it should be--or swinging dual sabers at Varad. Generally I had to kill the far one by myself, but the boss wasn't onto the next station before I got it down and I had it dead before it did much to me. Once again during this there are screams of hold aggro by guess who, though the healer despite being newer was up to the task and the tank was pulling aggro back as best as she could.

 

After the fight I took a few minute to go over some of the basics with the tank, who was a new convert from WoW and just learning. Besides technique pointers I tried to encourage her to do two things: one, to speak up in new FPs and simply let everyone know she hasn't done them as there's usually someone who has and who can cover the important details, and two, to take charge in the right way. Control the pace of the fights, make adjustments as needed, keep the group cohesive.

 

Long story short, helping out new players makes it a lot more comfortable for everyone than screaming "hold aggro", "taunt damn it", etc =p

the concept of "I just want to get it over with" in a video game - that is supposed to be something you do for fun has been confounding me for years now. I honestly don't get it.

 

I honestly don't get what's so complicated here. Especially after I've explained the matter in detail on a nuber of occassions. Let us hope that this will be the last one:

 

Yes, flashpoints and games in general are something you're supposed to do for fun. Alas, as with all other repetitive things, the fun eventually evolves into something boring, unchallenging and, in worst cases, a chore. At that point, the player can choose to either stop doing the formerly fun content or try to make the content fun again.

 

In grindfest gear-based games such as this one, the player cannot stop doing the content because he'll fall behind. Furthermore, the player needs/wants to get commendations, gear, money in order to equip his companions, buy new armors and vanity items. It's only human. So, what can this player do in a situation where he knows the content by heart but has to do it for a hundredth time? The only thing he can do - make the content fun and challenging again. This includes unorthodox tactics the devs never even imagined people would do. Jump over that ledge to skip the standing mob, soft CC the mob guarding a clickable objective, push them bastards off the railing and do all that at breakneck speeds pushing yourself and your teammates to their limits. Create controlled chaos situations people are not used to and come out alive.

 

Adapt to new situations and tactics. Learn from others and teach those with less experience. Be mindful of your surroundings and improvise in a second. One does not become a better player if not challenged regularly and pushed to their limits every now and then.

 

While flashpoints are a great example, I cannot think of a better one than Guild Wars' Domain of Anguish. Don't know if you've played it or not, but when that content was first introduced it required several hours to complete. And by several I mean 6 and more. And that's when you were lucky enough to be able complete it. Mobs were very unforgiving. Compared to those mobs, the ones in SWTOR seems like docile kittens wearing mittens. Less than a year later, the content was farmed with full runs averaging about 45 minutes and record runs going down to just over 30 minutes. What actually happened was that guilds were racing and players pushed tactics and themselves to absolute limits in order to get the fastest times and bragging rights on top of the loot. Much fun was had.

 

Stale tactics and trench warfare may work well while levelling, exploring and learning. Slow pace and exploration are awesome when you're going though the content for the first several times. Sticking your nose into every nook and cranny to marvel at the detail and effort put by the designers is a great feeling.

 

But...

 

Content becomes old, predictable and boring after a while. That's the main reason players will want to rush through it as fast as possible. I'm writing this from an eldergame perspective, ofcourse. Storymode flashpoints and new heroics are not something I'm talking about here. I've recently started playing Imperial classes and am taking my sweet time exploring beginner planets and generally clicking everything that looks clickable.

 

The food has arrived. OMNOMNOM time.

The food has arrived. OMNOMNOM time.

 

Dang, that smells good! What did you get, Slaf?

Meatballs and mashed potatoes. WOOOO!

I did the czerka corp labs a cpl of weeks ago on my Op healer, i explained carefully right from the start that it was a recent 55 and i hadn't healed it before. All was going well through the mobs tho but as soon as we hit the first boss i kept getting the aggro and die, we wiped 2 times before the tank decided to vote kick me for the reason "he can't heal" despite me trying to tell him that he needs to maintain aggro, and guard me. Which he didnt do

I did the czerka corp labs a cpl of weeks ago on my Op healer, i explained carefully right from the start that it was a recent 55 and i hadn't healed it before. All was going well through the mobs tho but as soon as we hit the first boss i kept getting the aggro and die, we wiped 2 times before the tank decided to vote kick me for the reason "he can't heal" despite me trying to tell him that he needs to maintain aggro, and guard me. Which he didnt do

 

He needs to mantain aggro ofc. That is one of the most important jobs of any tank. Btw i don't remember that the healer needs a guard on this boss.

 

As a operative remember that y've 2 drop aggro abilities. One of them is stealth, use it wisely and y can survive very bad moments!

Edited December 18, 2013 by Dark_Mithrandir

If rushing is what keeps the fun for you in flashpoints everthing is all right with that in the first place, but keep in mind that the groupfinder is mixing different people together. Some who want this quick race challenge too, but also a lot of players for whom it is no fun at all. Some who can keep up with this and some who are just unable to cope with it. Some who are happy to get challenged and some who just want to play through it semi afk.

 

It is still a group activity and the group should at least agree or find a a middle ground on how fast and challenging they want to run through.

 

Running with my guild we do some strange things too, but while going via groupfinder and running with strangers, there is some respect needed for the need or preferences of the others. If everyone is ok with a fast run, race ahead, but if there are people who don't want that, it is really rude in my opinion not to adapt to the group or not to go for a middle course at least.

 

Knowing that all these different people are running via groupfinder, i would never list there to run for one of the extremes, neither racing as if the whole dark council were chasing us, nor sleeping while waiting to engage an enemy.

If i want a record run or a challenge i go with my guildmates, we make and really want our own challenge, but i can't expect the same from everyone i meet via groupfinder. Same with hearing the full story in HC modes, both is something you do in a premade group and not in PUGs.

 

So groupfinder is more about adapting to the group and find a way for the fun for everyone in the group while avoiding most problems playing through the flashpoint may cause. Because that is what most players really want, running through without any problems. If it takes 5 minutes more or less it doesn't matter, as long it is smooth and no repair costs needed.

 

Regarding skipping mob groups, there are so many spots where it is not really faster to skip instead of just killing them, but often enough there is a high risk to pull them while skipping if someone is only one step behind or to far left or right. I prefer to start a fight controlled and on the group terms and not to be forced into "emergency rescue" tanking or healing. While of course this is fun now and then, it happens often enough in PUGs anyway, so why provoke such situations further. Especially if you know that in most cases someone will add these mobs and you'll have to fight them anyway. Better pull them ahead, nuke them down and just be done with it.

Same with boss tactics, PUGs aren't the place to show off how great i am. I will go for the safest tactics, those i know that will bring down the boss even if someone is screwing up. Because wiping in PUGs is rarely as funny as it can be in premades.

 

The argument of commendations i don't really understand, because if you are playing the elder game and doing for example the ops weekly quests you don't even need the commendations of flashpoints anymore. It is really easy to get to the weekly commendations limit without doing one flashpoint at all, so if you don't have fun doing them just stop it or go only with your guild for the fun of your own challenges. That is one reason why there are weekly limits in the first place, that no one is forced to play things he has no fun with just to keep up.

...and some who just want to play through it semi afk.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that semi-afk leeching is as valuable as offensive play?

 

Stop and think about it for a moment. I mean, if you queue for a flashpoint you're telling three different players that you have the intent and concentration to finish said FP in a timely manner. Semi-afk is leeching, selfish and insulting to those three players that were unfortunate enough to end up teamed with someone that doesn't respect others' time. If you can't play in a way that isn't detrimental to the group's effort - don't queue at all. Walk the dog, feed the cat, tie the girlfriend to a radiatior, whatever. When you load FP, you don't go afk making coffee, you say "hello" and proceed to kill mobs.

 

As for grinding commendations, think of companions and alts.

I did the czerka corp labs a cpl of weeks ago on my Op healer, i explained carefully right from the start that it was a recent 55 and i hadn't healed it before. All was going well through the mobs tho but as soon as we hit the first boss i kept getting the aggro and die, we wiped 2 times before the tank decided to vote kick me for the reason "he can't heal" despite me trying to tell him that he needs to maintain aggro, and guard me. Which he didnt do

 

It's pretty rare for a tank to lose aggro to a healer on a single boss. Was he in proper stance? Even if he wasn't, then he must have been sleeping to lose aggro to you. Something tells me there is more to this story. What boss was it?

 

Also guard doesn't do anything for a healer.

Edited December 18, 2013 by sithBracer

Are you seriously suggesting that semi-afk leeching is as valuable as offensive play?

 

Stop and think about it for a moment. I mean, if you queue for a flashpoint you're telling three different players that you have the intent and concentration to finish said FP in a timely manner. Semi-afk is leeching, selfish and insulting to those three players that were unfortunate enough to end up teamed with someone that doesn't respect others' time. If you can't play in a way that isn't detrimental to the group's effort - don't queue at all. Walk the dog, feed the cat, tie the girlfriend to a radiatior, whatever. When you load FP, you don't go afk making coffee, you say "hello" and proceed to kill mobs.

 

As for grinding commendations, think of companions and alts.

 

 

Well, the author of the comment you refer to listed some extremes and said everyone should adapt to the others to find a solution which is fine for everyone instead of everyone adapting to the rushing guy. You took the other extreme, interpreted his argument in a completely different way than it was presented (he never said everyone should adapt to semi-afk style) and showed how this argument is stupid. It is stupid. But he never said anything like it.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Lord_Submarine

It's pretty rare for a tank to lose aggro to a healer on a single boss. Was he in proper stance? Even if he wasn't, then he must have been sleeping to lose aggro to you. Something tells me there is more to this story. What boss was it?

 

Also guard doesn't do anything for a healer.

 

Must be the droid in the pool. Adds spawn every 2 rounds. Tank must aggro them and dps burn it asap. So probably tank was not doing his job and dps were not helping at all. If that happens healer will be focused and killed when he is out of defensive cooldowns and agro drops

Are you seriously suggesting that semi-afk leeching is as valuable as offensive play?

 

Stop and think about it for a moment. I mean, if you queue for a flashpoint you're telling three different players that you have the intent and concentration to finish said FP in a timely manner. Semi-afk is leeching, selfish and insulting to those three players that were unfortunate enough to end up teamed with someone that doesn't respect others' time. If you can't play in a way that isn't detrimental to the group's effort - don't queue at all. Walk the dog, feed the cat, tie the girlfriend to a radiatior, whatever. When you load FP, you don't go afk making coffee, you say "hello" and proceed to kill mobs.

 

As for grinding commendations, think of companions and alts.

 

The reason why you grind doesn't really matter, if you can reach the weekly limit without starting even one FP, i know what you can use or need the commendations for, but that wasn't my problem with that argument.

My question is, why running boring FPs if you don't need them to reach the limits because you reach the limit already by going ops with your guild for example.

 

As Lord_Submarine already pointed out, i didn't say anything about the value of certain playstyles, only that they exist in this game and that you meet many different ones in the groupfinder.

Rushing or not, skipping or not should be decided by the whole group and not one person who forces his understandig of fun on the others.

You on the other hand value your personal preference of fast runs higher than the fun others may have by going at a slower pace. That is selfish and insulting too and as egocentric as being semi-afk is in the way you understood my post. What if in a group the majority prefers running semi-afk, do you follow their pace or do you force them to rush or as maybe best solution, wish them a good day and leave the group?

 

But i admit semi-afk was not worded well, so let me give a better example.

Running through HC FP with 72 or 78 gear is boring for you because at normal speed it is no challenge, even full 69 it isn't really a challenge anymore. But there are players who want it to be boring, because they like a relaxed run which is easily possible being vastly overgeared.

 

Do you really propose that for example a 72/78 healer has to be 100% aware of everything the whole time in a HC FP he already did 100 times in the same way he would be concentrated in a HC ops his raid is progressing, after saying yourself being overgeared makes FPs boring and too easy? Or in the same way a healer should be concentrated if he is there for the first time.

Especially if he knows the FP in and out, where there is much damage on the tank or group, where the tank doesn't really need any healing at all he can watch TV, talk to someone, stroke his cat while still doing his part to get the group through the FP successfully.

An overgeared Dps doesn't has to play 100% perfect to kill stuff in time, he can relax too, even the tank can relax because being overgeared he can take more damage without bringing danger to the group, he doesn't has to keep his CDs ready in the same way he had to before, when he was "progressing" through the HC FPs.

Having overgeared dps, they aren't in such a danger to die because of aggro loss, dangerous mobs are often killed before they reach anyone.

If the player is only in 61/63/66 i would agree, he has to keep his full concentration on his group because there isn't as much scope for laziness or little faults, but with overgeared players who know what they are doing in general and knowing the firstname of every add in there?

Why not being a bit lazy then, if everyone is ok with that, no one is dieing and bosses are falling? If that is what they have fun with, it is as valuable as your way to run FPs even if it takes 5 minutes more and it is still a successful FP, as noone died and everything was killed.

 

If you happen to end in the same group, it is up to the whole group to find a way everyone has fun with. That is what i was talking about, adapting to the group and find a middle course instead of expecting everyone to just follow one persons preferences, because that would be not respecting the others.

It's pretty rare for a tank to lose aggro to a healer on a single boss. Was he in proper stance? Even if he wasn't, then he must have been sleeping to lose aggro to you. Something tells me there is more to this story. What boss was it?

 

Also guard doesn't do anything for a healer.

 

He was in the right stance. it was the droid in czerka labs. he kept attacking me for some reason, i could handle the pulls into the water which i know is random and i did use my aggro dump every cd but that didnt help much

Duran'del here:

 

When I was running a 55 HM FP (To gear up, I've got Campaign gear or better) with my guildies(with one random), before the bonus boss(on Cademimu), my tank asks: "Ready?"

As I go to click "ready" on the RC, I hop onto the railing to get behind it...

...and fall to my death.

Tank: "The timing on that was perfect. Ready? dead."

Me: "What can I say? I'm awesome. :P"

 

I did get a helmet out of it, so I'm happy.

He was in the right stance. it was the droid in czerka labs. he kept attacking me for some reason, i could handle the pulls into the water which i know is random and i did use my aggro dump every cd but that didnt help much

 

The tank wasn't being pulled out of the water by a sorc / being interceded to by a jugg ?

Duran'del here:

 

I liked it when this thread was about weird people, not an argument over FPs being boring and LoSing...

This thread used to be funny, then people came and killed it :'(

The tank wasn't being pulled out of the water by a sorc / being interceded to by a jugg ?

Tbh i don't remember if the sorc healer pulled him, that might have been the case.

The reason why you grind doesn't really matter, if you can reach the weekly limit without starting even one FP, i know what you can use or need the commendations for, but that wasn't my problem with that argument.

My question is, why running boring FPs if you don't need them to reach the limits because you reach the limit already by going ops with your guild for example.

You do realise there are players that don't raid much, right?

As Lord_Submarine already pointed out, i didn't say anything about the value of certain playstyles, only that they exist in this game and that you meet many different ones in the groupfinder.

Rushing or not, skipping or not should be decided by the whole group and not one person who forces his understandig of fun on the others.

Just follow the tank and all will be well.

 

You on the other hand value your personal preference of fast runs higher than the fun others may have by going at a slower pace. That is selfish and insulting too and as egocentric as being semi-afk is in the way you understood my post. What if in a group the majority prefers running semi-afk, do you follow their pace or do you force them to rush or as maybe best solution, wish them a good day and leave the group?

If you did not want me to understand your post as a praise to semi-afk, you shouldn't have written it that way. And if the group wants to semi-afk and pick their noses instead of doing the flashpoint, I politely ask to be kicked so I can requeue immediately. Everyone wins.

 

But i admit semi-afk was not worded well, so let me give a better example.

Running through HC FP with 72 or 78 gear is boring for you because at normal speed it is no challenge, even full 69 it isn't really a challenge anymore. But there are players who want it to be boring, because they like a relaxed run which is easily possible being vastly overgeared.

 

Do you really propose that for example a 72/78 healer has to be 100% aware of everything the whole time in a HC FP he already did 100 times in the same way he would be concentrated in a HC ops his raid is progressing, after saying yourself being overgeared makes FPs boring and too easy? Or in the same way a healer should be concentrated if he is there for the first time.

I know this may strike you as unreasonable and selfish (although I cannot understand why) but YES - I do expect people to be aware. Playing without being aware makes you a bad player and a dead weight to the group.

If you happen to end in the same group, it is up to the whole group to find a way everyone has fun with. That is what i was talking about, adapting to the group and find a middle course instead of expecting everyone to just follow one persons preferences, because that would be not respecting the others.

Considering my preferences consist of "don't break cc", "guard the mdps", "follow kill order" and "don't go afk for 15+ minutes", I don't see how they work against the group and its members.

Cademimu HM, tank DC'ed after pull #1, the rest of us (2 mercs and me heaing) decided to push on while waiting on a tank. After a few pulls with no problems Merc #1 declared it's impossible to kill Xander without a tank so he rage quit as well.

 

Merc #2 and I finished the flashpoint with our companions no problem, honestly it was easier after Merc #1 left.

He was in the right stance. it was the droid in czerka labs. he kept attacking me for some reason, i could handle the pulls into the water which i know is random and i did use my aggro dump every cd but that didnt help much

 

The giant droid or the adds? It is impossible for the giant droid to attack you (he can pull you into the electric water though). You would have to average like 6000 heals per second just to keep up with a dps, forget a tank. It was most likely the adds, in which case the dps are more responsible.

 

Personally when I tank I always aggro the adds and use saber reflect on my jugg or just kill them on my shadow. People like to leave them alone but that sometimes leads to them ganking the healer. It's easier to just kill them when they appear.

I was on my lowbie sorc and I got a pop for atthiss, I was healing. Most of the run was fine, tank died once or twice when i could not keep him up.

on both the first and second bosses one of the dps forgot too kill the adds, but we got thru both in fine form so I thought it did not matter, but both times after the fights the second dps wanted to kick the first dps for it, both times the votes failed. We killed the last boss without much difficulty, got the artifacts and left the flashpoint, that's when things got strange, most of us were by the terminal when the dps who had wanted to do all the kicking started a vote to kick ME!!! I whispered him and said "dude, the flashpoints over, why kick me now?" he said they one of the others in the group(can't remember which) had told him that I had been talking s*** about him behind his back, I told him that i Hadn't said a thing about him(which is true). He then told me that I was a sucky healer cus the tank had died once or twice! I asked him if he voted to kick all healers that let someone die once or twice? He didn't respond.

Edited February 26, 2014 by avatarearth

I guess I'm one of those weird guys that doesn't know what they're doing, but I've always seem to be grouped with nice people. If I say at the beginning its my first time they usually give a good explanation on what to do before a boss fight. I'm playing a scoundrel healer at the moment, and I do visit the forums on guides and skills and gear and whatnot, but just like in real life, theory and practice are totally different things. Etc at lvl 20 a DPS pointed out that I should be using SRMP by then, we made it through with my meagre underworld meds coz we had an awesome tank at the time. I eventually got it at lvl 24 and understood how important it was. I always appreciate help and tips given by the more experienced players, and being polite goes a long way.

 

EDIT : I also had no idea how the need/greed system works. For my first few runs I just clicked need or greed at random without knowing what it really does. Nobody ever mentioned anything to me. But on one run I selected need on a willpower item and someone politely mentioned that I shouldn't roll need on an item I wouldn't use. I apologized and thats how I learned bout that particular system.

Edited December 19, 2013 by sharveendp

Duran'del here:

 

I liked it when this thread was about weird people, not an argument over FPs being boring and LoSing...

This thread used to be funny, then people came and killed it :'(

 

^^This.

Personally when I tank I always aggro the adds and use saber reflect on my jugg or just kill them on my shadow. People like to leave them alone but that sometimes leads to them ganking the healer. It's easier to just kill them when they appear.

 

I ignore the adds most of the time and leave them for the derps to kill. If I see the derps not paying attention and killing the mobs I'll force pull the closest one, that usually gets their attention. When I'm derpsing as sent, I take care of the closest mobs and leave the far ones to the rdps.

Not so long ago Cademinu SM on the Pub side, tank guardian, heal sage, dps sent and gunslinger. Everything was going ok, no wipes quick FP until we got to the last boss, and just as we position ourselves in the boss chamber the sent jumps in on a boss and start smacking the living hell out of him, heal quickly gets on what's going on and starts healing the idiot but tank doesn't take the aggro thinking to punish dumb sent, until he sees that boss is down by 1/3 hp, fortunately the sent is not so dumb in the end and knows what to do, kites the boss away from fire and everything goes ok, no wipe the boss is dead.

I was that sent and the jump was an honest misclick, after the last fight I had 30 stacks of centering and didn't want them to go to waste so in the last seconds of the buff I wanted to convert them into focus by zen, unfortunately binding zen to "R" and force jump to "T" tend to end badly. I have no hard feelings for the tank, would have done the same thing in his place and let the dps die, and the healer was awesome, kudos to you man. In the end I apologized to everyone and praised the sage.

As you see sometimes even good players (I'm not great but I know my way around) have their derp moments, so if it's a one time thing, no need to jump to conclusions.