You have given an example of maybe 0.01% of all items on the GTN.

 

...

Hey, at least my 0.01% example is > than your 0.00% examples.

 

Unless you're saying that 0.00% is more due to inflation?

Landmark is basically a game building tool for Everquest Next. That is some cool ****!

The only feedback thread I had the chance to read (I'm not in the beta) was regarding their approach to vanity gear (ie transmog, etc). But just based off that one discussion, I really need to question the value of their feedback. Seeing a majority opinion of "I should be able to readily identify an enemy based on their gear" was a real turn-off; that basically tosses customization out the window, and leaves everyone of the same class looking like clones of each other.

 

If the rest of their feedback is equally bad, I just as well hope they pull the industry standard and totally ignore the feedback.

Perhaps if I had mentioned "bots," your reply to me about "bots" would have made at least a modicum of sense.

 

 

That is exactly wrong. I got it wrong myself. Gathering loot and selling it to a vendor does create creds that weren't there before (as someone else pointed out).

 

It's exactly wrong because someone else said the same as you. Yes again, as certain people want to be pedantic in their terminology, then all credits are created 'out of thin air' However some people are pointing out that credits made in game are not created out of thin air. I don't care how credits are acquired in game, questing, selling gear etc... to me they are still created in game. For me, 'out of thin air' means to add credits to a server through hacking, or selling credits to players.

 

Ah, I suspect we have found your problem. English is not your first language. No where did I mention players selling creds to other players. I said EA facilitates the transfer of creds between players. If it's not clear to you, EA selling player A an item from the CM, then player A selling it to player B for creds, facilitates the transfer of creds from B to A.

 

I will give you this one, I did misread what you said.

 

Your inability to understand my argument shows nothing about the argument. It does however reveal a great deal about you. As does your bizarre conclusion that I made any sort of comment about players selling creds to each other. You read and process what you think is there and mold your comprehension so that it doesn't disturb the pre established notions you have about the course of the discussion. You are not alone. Most people do not process information well and respond to comments and questions not as they actually are but as if they want them to be (as forgiving to their flawed thinking as possible). Sort of an unconscious Straw Man fallacy.

 

What makes me laugh really is no one has come up with a counter to what I have said about the CM. All you seem capable of doing now is to through slander around and pick out mistakes.

HAHAH... A saying we have in the UK... 'Back of the net"

 

Seriously though, I am just try to get the point of CM helping credits to stay in game because there is no need to craft things to make money and that the -6% GTN charge isn't as nearly effective as a money sink as crafting costs..

 

can't buy mods/armorings/barrels etc with cartel coins. cartel market armor doesn't come with augment slots OR augments. while there are cartel crystals, they don't come in exact same colors as crafted ones, so can still sell those. certain dyes can only be crafted and some of them are fabulous (like black blue or black red for example). can't buy high end stims with cartel coins. some armor shells are still nice.

 

and not sure if its been addressed but just in case... what are you doing not only replacing mods every 2 levels (with blue mods, you are fine with 4 or even 5 levels in between upgrades), but spending credits on it? are you pulling old mods out? you know you don't need to right? you could just place new mods on top of the old and while it destroys the old mod -chances are you don't need those bound mods anyways and adding new mod is free. getting planetary coms to replace mods is easy. back in the olden days, getting full orange set was a pain, yes, but that's NOT a good thing. overabundance of orange gear means more appearance choices.

 

there was never any need to craft to make credits. you could make them just by questing and even though dailies on Belsavis were not as tightly packed and convenient as the newer batch - they were still there, some of them awarded VERY nice companion gear and they could be used just fine to make credits if one didn't feel like crafting. crafting is still an option for making credits as well, so its not like that's gone.

What makes me laugh really is no one has come up with a counter to what I have said about the CM. All you seem capable of doing now is to through slander around and pick out mistakes.

At this point, no one has the remotest clue what you are talking about, including yourself.

 

But if it makes you feel better to claim "victory," knock yourself out.

What makes me laugh really is no one has come up with a counter to what I have said about the CM. All you seem capable of doing now is to through slander around and pick out mistakes.

Mortelus, any argument is founded on specific statements. If the underlying statements are shaky, the whole argument starts to fall down.

 

I've responded to one outright false claim (we didn't have 5 million+ things on the GTN prior to the Cartel Market), and one unsubstantiated claim (that CM caused inflation) with actual proven data.

 

Note that I'm not trying to say the Cartel Market is good for the economy. Neither am I trying to say that it is bad for the economy. What I am trying to say is that your arguments against the Cartel Market are illogical.

 

Earlier in this thread, you asked for proof that there isn't inflation. I provided one specific example. On the flipside, you've provided no evidence to support your theory.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Khevar

Yes they are "selling credits"... indirectly. I may have said they might as well sell them directly, can't recall and don't care enough to look.

 

I did not say they are injecting credits into the game. The main point was that the Cartel Market is doing exactly what Gold Sellers do, one step removed. The end result is the same whether you do it via "buy a CM dye for $20 and sell it for 5 million credits", or whether you buy supereasymuchcheap credits. Both methods do not create credits, both just transfer it between accounts for a charge of real world dollars.

 

The fixation on semantics is standard policy around here. Pick apart every post for any wording discrepancies, attack those discrepancies to deflect attention from the actual points being made. Not yourself, but the usual suspects.

 

No, they are not. Because to do so, they would have to sell you credit bundles on the CM, and they don't. There are no semantics involved, you are accusing them of selling credits, and they don't. What you are doing is libel, you are saying they are, or may as well be gold sellers. Meanwhile, all they are doing is selling items that can be traded amongst players, whom, in all likelihood, earned their credits the legit way, by completing missions and killing mobs. There is no scenario in which players exchanging credits for goods from other players is selling credits by the game company. You have come to an erroneous conclusion based entirely on your dislike of the model, and have decided that, no matter what, you're going to run with it.

 

Just as an aside, you do realize that any time you sell trash items to a vendor, you are injecting credits into the game, right? After all, before you sold those items to the vendor, the credits did not exist. This model, believe it or not, exists even in games that don't have a CM equivalent, right down to single player games.

Yes again, as certain people want to be pedantic in their terminology, then all credits are created 'out of thin air' However some people are pointing out that credits made in game are not created out of thin air. I don't care how credits are acquired in game, questing, selling gear etc... to me they are still created in game. For me, 'out of thin air' means to add credits to a server through hacking, or selling credits to players. [my emphasis]

It has nothing to do with being pedantic. You can "feel" all you like that transferring credits from A to B creates credits, but it doesn't.

 

Publisher selling creds directly to players creates creds.

Players selling loot to vendors creates creds.

Players selling stuff to other players does not create creds.

 

This is not a matter of opinion. That's just the way it is.

Edited February 24, 2014 by branmakmuffin

At this point, no one has the remotest clue what you are talking about, including yourself.

 

But if it makes you feel better to claim "victory," knock yourself out.

 

This is my point! In other words, the CM help to keep more money in the game = inflation of prices, not all but some, depends also on supply and demand.

 

Again though, yes prices are USUALLY driven by rarity. However in the case of the CM prices are also driven buy how much real money is spent on the item. so prices are NOT always driven by rarity in this game, true?

 

It is no longer soley player driven economy, because EAware have CM items that cost real-word money, that can be sold for ingame credits, thus this give in-game credits a real-world value. This may fluctuate over time, but generally speaking, 1 CC is worth 'X' amount of credits. True? Players decide this value yes, but ultimately price of items is first set by real money cost, and that is EAwares decision.

 

Deflation costs from the 6% of selling something on the GTN, is heavily outweighed by crafters who spends time and credits in crafting items in game then also selling the item on the GTN for a minus of 6% total sale price....

 

Player A spends 1 day collecting mats and spends 20'000 credits on missions to collect these mats. During which time they are out leveling or raiding and die, thus spending more credits to fix gear. They then craft the item and sell it on the GTN for 40'000 making a profit minus the 6% 17'600 credits for one days work.

 

Player B spend $20 dollars on the CM, gets an item of equal value to Player A's crafted item and then sells it for a net profit of 37,600 thus making 20'000 more than Player A for 5 minutes work.

 

The CM blurs the economy because it gives everyone a chance to be extremely rich with little effort.

 

It is like a National Lottery making everyone millionaires over night, bad for the economy and because everyone is millionaires, prices go up because there is more money.

 

As I sated some of the GTN is natural and can be found in all MMO's, but some is as well down to sellable items of things brought with real-world money.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Mortelus

do you know where your analogy fails?

in several places actualy.

 

1. in this game you don't spend time or effort to craft - you send your companions off, while you do something else.

2. raiding, otherwise playing the game, etc? is something you.. do for fun. you cannot count it as part of the "work" because you would presumably be doing that whether you craft, or not.

3. you always could just run dailies for half an hour and make far more than your 17k profit. those were in game from the start.

4. that person who buys some stuff on cartel market and sells it for quicker in game profit (never mind that they actualy had to "gasp" work in real life to get that money - actual job, not playing the game having fun) - that person is your customer. by getting their credits through those means, they can buy stuff from you. tada! everyone wins.

5. there's not more money. cartel market doesn't create more money. cartel market gives people option of what to exchange for money. that money, aka credits? still needs to be created in game. its rather a matter of do you have more real life money? or real life time?

 

you haven't seen messed up economy till you play something like guild wars 2 or neverwinter. at least in SWTOR you can still make some decent profit through crafting, even at early levels if you so wish. or save yourself some credits alternately.

 

see, stuff that's sold in cartel market doesn't really overlap with stuff you can craft with exception of occasional armor model. very occasional armor model. the only profession that genuinely suffered is artifice's sub lvl 50 crystals, but then again - it got dyes to compensate. hell you can't even buy lvl 50 starship upgrades from cc anymore, which you know what, that reminds me, i should start crafting them again, since they should be profitable now.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Jeweledleah

do you know where your analogy fails?

in several places actualy.

 

1. in this game you don't spend time or effort to craft - you send your companions off, while you do something else.

2. raiding, otherwise playing the game, etc? is something you.. do for fun. you cannot count it as part of the "work" because you would presumably be doing that whether you craft, or not.

3. you always could just run dailies for half an hour and make far more than your 17k profit. those were in game from the start.

4. that person who buys some stuff on cartel market and sells it for quicker in game profit (never mind that they actualy had to "gasp" work in real life to get that money - actual job, not playing the game having fun) - that person is your customer. by getting their credits through those means, they can buy stuff from you. tada! everyone wins.

5. there's not more money. cartel market doesn't create more money. cartel market gives people option of what to exchange for money. that money, aka credits? still needs to be created in game. its rather a matter of do you have more real life money? or real life time?

 

you haven't seen messed up economy till you play something like guild wars 2 or neverwinter. at least in SWTOR you can still make some decent profit through crafting, even at early levels if you so wish. or save yourself some credits alternately.

 

see, stuff that's sold in cartel market doesn't really overlap with stuff you can craft with exception of occasional armor model. very occasional armor model. the only profession that genuinely suffered is artifice's sub lvl 50 crystals, but then again - it got dyes to compensate. hell you can't even buy lvl 50 starship upgrades from cc anymore, which you know what, that reminds me, i should start crafting them again, since they should be profitable now.

 

1. Spending an hour waiting for mats, is in my world, a long time, then spending hmmm... 45 minutes to craft something, (if you get the right mats from mission) is, in my world, a long time. You could spend (waiting) 2 hours to craft 1 item if all goes smoothly. Yes I am off doing other things, which means I am probably, also spend credits in other parts of the game.

 

2. Work/time analogies for effort people put in to the game. Some people put in more effort than others, some people have more time than others, some people just don't like raiding. Playing a game isn't 'work' but that doesn't mean we should be given a free ride. If you don't have proper time (because of work) to play MMO's then don't play them. Play Single player games, there is plenty of them. I don't have much time for MMO's so I play causal and Solo. But I don't expect to get everything that dedicated PvE/PvP get, and I have never claimed any such want.

 

3. Yes you can, never said you couldn't, and not really any part of my argument if you bothered reading it.

 

4. Just backs up my claim that even people without any effort can be rich and afford anything using "real money" which helps to increase prices on the GTN. Because without it, those players wouldn't have millions, except for the lucky few who looted something extremely rare.

 

5. I am stating, (countering an previous argument) that then CM helps to keep credits in the game, and doesn't act as a deflatory mechanic, because actually the 6% of GTN costs taken from selling is far outweighed by the amount of Credits crafters spend on crafting. And even then, the crafters still need to pay 6% to the GTN, so the CM is in no way deflatory, IT HELPS keep credits in the game, which increase overall server wealth, which in turn increases over pricing.

 

What people here seem unable to grasp is that this is a trend, some of it is a natural progressing of an MMO economy. But undoubtedly some also from the CM. Trends do not mean it is a universal given, take global warming, just because averagely temperatures increase, it doesn't mean everywhere gets hotter, quite the opposite, some place will become cooler, whilst other become hotter.

 

It is the same with what I am talking about, averagely the CM helps inflation, because more people have more money, because less is being wasted on crafting etc...

Edited February 24, 2014 by Mortelus

wait. let me see if I got this right. so you set a task for background process, it takes literally less than a minute to do so, that's it, that's the effort. and then you count actual playing the game that is in no way related to performing that task... as part of that task? and credits you spend on playing the game that is in no way shape or form related to actual task... are still counted towards the effort invested into it? that's the most backward thing I've read today :/

 

well.. in that case... you have got to count the 2 days you have to wait for cartel market item's bind period to wear off before you could sell it - as effort. couple of hours... vs couple of days. and while people wait, they are probably spending credits on other parts of the game, so that should count to right?

 

that IS seems to be your reasoning after all.

 

and I don't know how you play, but the only time I'm in a red after playing the game is when my guild is trying to down a progression ops boss. otherwise... pretty much every other possible task I can either do while spending no money, or I make credits while I'm playing the game, sometimes - a lot of credits. even which a bad flashpoint pugs with several wipes - i still come out, at a minimum - even, but general with extra credits to my name.

 

moreover, who are you to tell people how to play their game? who are you to tell them that they are wrong when they log in to play with their friends few hours here, few hours there.... but noooo, they mustn't have options, people with lives outside of the game should not be allowed, even though those very people are probably the reason why the game is still running >_> those damn dirty casuals...

 

and guess what... thanks to cartel market? most prices have actualy dropped. the only prices that stay high for a while are for items that always cost a lot. but now - more people can actualy afford them, oh noes....

 

last but not least. CM does. NOt. sell. the same. things as crafting. CM sells no modifications, no stim packs, no augment kits, no augments, no health packs, it doesn't sell dye colors that you get from crafting, it sells no implants, no earpieces, no barrels, it sells no black purple or magenta crystals, it sells no barrels for the amount of money you spend on it for a small chance of rare mats, its really not worth it vs getting those mats directly through crew skills... not to mention... how in a world are you spending so much more credits on crafting? becasue I have all professions maxed and I just don't see it. I get far more credits out of crafting that I spend on it. almost without fail. and in some cases when its not worth it - I just sell mats.

 

as long as cartel market sells vanity items? it has little to no effect on crafting economy. as long as I can get a mil per day just doing some dailies for couple of hours? (yes, it is possible) my and other people simple playing of the game is what generates the credits and devalues items. credits are NOT easy to come by because of cartel market - all it is is an option of exchange for some people. credits are easy to come by becasue the game practically throws them at you just for logging in and doing something, anything. like... the other day, I went on a weekly raiding spree with my guildies for fun and drunken shenanigans and ended up with extra 300k credits in my pockets. I wasn't even trying to make any credits, I was just having fun with my guildies, killing bosses and collecting loots and before you say anything - all we did was purely puggable stuff on alts and we didn't even finish the runs, just killed weekly boss and moved on to the next operation. even at lower levels, as free 2 play it can be super easy to make credits, unless you splurge on something that back in a day you wouldn't have even been able to come close to splurging on (like moddable bracers and belts that used to be so damn hard to find for your companions since cheap crafted options were class locked, that are now super easy and affordable - even from a social vendor, since its all adoptive armor now)

I never said the CM sells the same items, but it doesn't just sell vanity items like many people here state. It sells adaptive armour that can be used by any class, it is adaptive, which makes all craftable gear pointless. It sells crystals with lvl 50 (I think) stats that can be used at level 10, overpowered much? It sells plenty of things that have had a damaging Impact on crafting.

 

I didn't tell people how to play, I simply stated that maybe MMO's are not the type of game to play if you feel you have limited time to play, as I clearly stated, I have limited time, usually no-more than 5 hours a week now, unless I am on holiday. So I play casual. I am not in a guild, nor do any raiding simply because I know I don't have the time to do these things.

 

However I also clearly stated that I DO NOT expect to get everything hat the more dedicated players get. Again this is the problem with modern MMO's (and many people will agree), everything has to be accessible to everyone, everyone is entitled to everything. because the guy who can only play 1 hour a week should be entitled to the more hardcore players who want to feel rewarded for their effort in game.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Mortelus

I never said the CM sells the same items, but it doesn't just sell vanity items like many people here state. It sells adaptive armour that can be used by any class, it is adaptive, which makes all craftable gear pointless. It sells crystals with lvl 50 (I think) stats that can be used at level 10, overpowered much? It sells plenty of things that have had a damaging Impact on crafting.

 

I didn't tell people how to play, I simply stated that maybe MMO's are not the type of game to play if you feel you have limited time to play, as I clearly stated, I have limited time, usually no-more than 5 hours a week now, unless I am on holiday. So I play casual. I am not in a guild, nor do any raiding simply because I know I don't have the time to do these things.

 

However I also clearly stated that I DO NOT expect to get everything hat the more dedicated players get. Again this is the problem with modern MMO's (and many people will agree), everything has to be accessible to everyone, everyone is entitled to everything. because the guy who can only play 1 hour a week should be entitled to the more hardcore players who want to feel rewarded for their effort in game.

 

it sells different colors from those that can be crafted. you want your basic red or green or yellow or orange? crafted. you want black core crystals? crafted. magenta? crafted. moreover - go check the reputation vendors and social vendors some time. all of their armor? adoptive. has been for a long LONG time now. not to mention - there are some armor models that you can craft? that cannot be purchased through cartel market. so... they are still useful.

cartel market doesn't let you get everything in game. far from it. it gives you a few options, but it won't get you the best stats for your gear (only second best in a roundabout way, but you don't need cartel market for that) it won't get you rare drops or reputation rewards, or holiday items.

 

last but not least... so you are casual player but you speak for hardcore ones? heh... hardcore players get titles they can display. they get stats on their gear that you cannot get outside of hardcore activities. they get unique pet and mount skins, or at least recolors that are ONLY available through hardcore content. in some cases, they get unique looking armor. they get access to crystal colors that cannot be found anywhere else (and that they can then sell to other people) they get access to high end materials that they have ALWAYS sold for an arm and a leg on GTN.

 

so basically... your problem is that credits are too easy to make? but they are easy to make regardless of cartel market >_> on the other hand - people who have money but not time, allow people with time but not money, get their hands on larger variety of vanity items. and everyone wins!

Edited February 24, 2014 by Jeweledleah

HAHAH... A saying we have in the UK... 'Back of the net"

 

Seriously though, I am just try to get the point of CM helping credits to stay in game because there is no need to craft things to make money and that the -6% GTN charge isn't as nearly effective as a money sink as crafting costs..

 

LOLWUT? I craft stuff all the time. Each time I make something, it costs me zero credits. What crafting cost money sink?

LOLWUT? I craft stuff all the time. Each time I make something, it costs me zero credits. What crafting cost money sink?

It does take creds out of the game to run the missions for mats or to buy the "white" mats from a vendor. And if you buy them off the GTN, the seller gets "taxed."

It does take creds out of the game to run the missions for mats or to buy the "white" mats from a vendor. And if you buy them off the GTN, the seller gets "taxed."

 

But he didn't say materials.

But he didn't say materials.

Well, sure, if you focus on just the literal crafting, that costs nothing, not even tool repair costs (as in some games) or the chance of failure and wasting the mats (as in others). Edit: In TOR, there's not even the "cost" of forgoing questing and the creds/gold not earned from said non questing.

Edited February 24, 2014 by branmakmuffin

... The CM blurs the economy because it gives everyone a chance to be extremely rich with little effort. ...

There's a very important aspect of this you're not taking into account.

 

The buyers of the CM items, where are they getting their money from?

 

(Note that this also applies to expensive NON Cartel Market items (e.g. crafted grade 31 gear). Players buy this gear off of the GTN. Where are they getting their money from?)

 

The primary source of credits in this game is dailies.

 

You take a level 55, and they can breeze through the daily areas and make plenty of credits. "Created out of thin air" credits as it were. A halfway decent player with halfway decent gear is unlikely to wipe while running said dailies, so repair costs at the end will be minimal. Making money without running dailies is primarily accomplished by selling things to people who do run them.

 

The player who buys Cartel Market stuff for dollars and sells it on the GTN does convert cash to credits super quick, with minimal effort, that is true. But you have to remember that SOMEONE ELSE actually did put in effort to manufacture those credits by doing actual in-game activities.

 

The CM only shortcuts the process for the person who paid cash. The buyer either spent hours running quests for credits, OR sold something valuable to others who did.

 

Time and effort of actually playing the game is still required to make credits. Whether or not the CM exists.

 

TANSTAAFL.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Khevar

But he didn't say materials.

 

Again being pedantic I see. Crafting in literal terms is the creating of items in the game through... crafting, to do that you need to run missions and buy schematics, All of which costs money and goes straight out of the game.

 

Does everyone who speaks on here need to be absolutely perfectly accurate with their wording for you to understand. In RL most people generalize and it isn't an issue, seems here we have way to many overly educated linguists.

There's a very important aspect of this you're not taking into account.

 

The buyers of the CM items, where are they getting their money from?

 

(Note that this also applies to expensive NON Cartel Market items (e.g. crafted grade 31 gear). Players buy this gear off of the GTN. Where are they getting their money from?)

 

The primary source of credits in this game is dailies.

 

You take a level 55, and they can breeze through the daily areas and make plenty of credits. "Created out of thin air" credits as it were. A halfway decent player with halfway decent gear is unlikely to wipe while running said dailies, so repair costs at the end will be minimal. Making money without running dailies is primarily accomplished by selling things to people who do run them.

 

The player who buys Cartel Market stuff for dollars and sells it on the GTN does convert cash to credits super quick, with minimal effort, that is true. But you have to remember that SOMEONE ELSE actually did put in effort to manufacture those credits by doing actual in-game activities.

 

The CM only shortcuts the process for the person who paid cash. The buyer either spent hours running quests for credits, OR sold something valuable to others who did.

 

Time and effort of actually playing the game is still required to make credits. Whether or not the CM exists.

 

TANSTAAFL.

 

I understand this, and it is a natural progression of MMO's. However I stand by the CM keeping more credits in game, and that anyone can make millions in a flash. Which saturates the market even more with credits. Maybe in my mind it was more extreme than reality.

I understand this, and it is a natural progression of MMO's. However I stand by the CM keeping more credits in game, and that anyone can make millions in a flash. Which saturates the market even more with credits. Maybe in my mind it was more extreme than reality.

You may be right. I suppose the proliferation of rare things in packs may have prompted more people to run dailies to buy them.