Lol, I can't believe some people honestly think 8 man is harder than 16 man... Unbelievable.

It isn't even that Rex, it is that they think it is even on par or close.

And the truth is revealed.

 

It's just harder to get 16 people to carry their own weight. We're nearly able to run 16 man again, so I suppose the personal debate will end shortly for me and mine, but I still think they're equal in relative difficulty. Since 1.2, there have been changes to Tier 1 content as well. I've run 8 and 16 in EV on two different characters since then. On 8, the trash is a joke, yes. On 16, it hits harder, BUT you have twice as many healers to compensate. People just need to be awake and not treat it like 8 man. In *relative* difficulty, it's the same, you just require more out of more people. Therein lies the difficulty.

 

That being said, I would never think to diminish the accomplishments of our friends in Condemned, or the folks in Millenium across the pond. I just think that it's unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an 8 man guild. The content is more demanding and with eight, you can't afford to have one screwing around or not playing well.

I am glad the one thing you took away from my post is my personal opinion of smaller size raiding. Everything else about larger size being harder is fact.

The fact is you could take those 16 people who can carry their own weight, split them into two 8 man's, and they will clear the 8 mans easier. So I don't think that argument has value. A group that can beat the 16 man hard modes will have an easier time with the 8 mans.

We are 3/4 16 hards right now and expect to be 4/4 in a minimal amount of pulls tonight, it is safe to say that more then 1 person making a mistake on these fights during progression was a wipe, so I am sorry but I don't agree with that argument either. Everyone has to play well, in either 16 or 8, to get these kills during progression.

It is nowhere even close to the same difficulty "relatively".

You basically said it yourself! You are asking MORE out of MORE people on 16 man! If that is not the definition of more difficult, I don't know what is. They have to step their game up.

I think the question of difficulty is a complicated one. We did the fights on Hard Mode on 8-man on the PTS, and we're now clearing them on 16-man Hard Mode on live. Toth and Zorn feels pretty comparable to me, i.e., not hugely difficult on either difficulty, and the enrage timer isn't much of an issue on either mode.

 

Firebrand and Stormcaller, however, is *significantly* more difficult on 16-man Hard Mode than on 8-man Hard Mode. It's like a totally different fight. They've made a number of tuning mistakes with the fight that make it vastly more difficult on 16-man.

 

For example:

 

(1) The damage on tanks is ramped up significantly. This matters because even with twice as many healers there are still phases of the fight that involve movement (e..g, going to and from the shields). The ramped up damage matters a lot here, since you have to have a lot more coordination, e.g., one healer remaining stationary while the other gets back on the tank, etc.

 

(2) Double Destruction is serious business. The ticks are doubled on 16-man, which means you have to have coordinated healing assignments for the DD targets. It's also a nightmare if you push Defensive Systems right after the second DD, because you're having to try to keep these people alive while running to the shields. On 8-man this was a complete non-issue, since the ticks weren't going to put the DD targets in immediate danger.

 

(3) There are 4 shields on 16-man compared to 8-man. This requires a lot more coordination to deal with, since shield damage is based off the number of people standing under it. If one person runs to the wrong shield and/or brushes the wrong shield, you end up blowing it early (oh and guess what, the Mortar Volley damage is higher too).

 

The shields can also be split on the back and on the side, so your healers can't cross-heal. One of them will typically be out of range of the tank, who is taking way more damage than on 8-man. This is especially problematic as the phase ends, since the tank can eat a huge hit from Stormcaller.

 

(4) The frontal attacks of Firebrand and Stormcaller are near 1-shots. Any positioning mistakes will result in people getting absolutely creamed. Because twice as many people get caught by positioning mistakes typically compared to 8, this is a case where quadruple damage is unintentionally being dealt.

 

Things that are a bit easier than 8-man but only slightly:

 

(1) You can use 3 tanks on 16-man and still meet the enrage. This is important because of how huge the frontal damage from the hovertanks is.

(2) The enrage timer is a bit easier.

 

Overall, though, this is just the 2nd fight of the instance and there is just no comparison. The difficulty of this fight on 16-man is far far beyond the 8-man level.

This goes a lot farther in proving a point than just saying "lol 8 man easy lololol". I appreciate the time that went into it. I stand corrected on several points. I still think 8 man is tuned very well and refreshingly difficult, if not overboard like this post speaks towards for 16. The whole "one person screws up is a wipe" thing applies to both then, I suppose.

This goes a lot farther in proving a point than just saying "lol 8 man easy lololol". I appreciate the time that went into it. I stand corrected on several points. I still think 8 man is tuned very well and refreshingly difficult, if not overboard like this post speaks towards for 16. The whole "one person screws up is a wipe" thing applies to both then, I suppose.

I agree that 8-man is tuned correctly. When we originally tested 16-man Toth and Zorn it had some ridiculous overtuning issues. With the feedback from testers, it got retuned and is now very well-balanced compared to 8-man. The problem is later Hard Mode fights didn't really get adequate 16-man testing due to Toth and Zorn being so hard/buggy that they blocked progression, and so similar tuning mistakes on this 2nd fight weren't caught by testers.

I firmly believe 16-man Firebrand/Stormcaller is above the difficulty level they intend (unintentionally). It's still not an incredibly difficult fight, but it's more like an easier Heroic mode WoW boss than like a normal mode WoW boss (and my opinion is that Hard Modes should be closer to the latter).

I agree that 8-man is tuned correctly. When we originally tested 16-man Toth and Zorn it had some ridiculous overtuning issues. With the feedback from testers, it got retuned and is now very well-balanced compared to 8-man. The problem is later Hard Mode fights didn't really get adequate 16-man testing due to Toth and Zorn being so hard/buggy that they blocked progression, and so similar tuning mistakes on this 2nd fight weren't caught by testers.

 

I firmly believe 16-man Firebrand/Stormcaller is above the difficulty level they intend (unintentionally). It's still not an incredibly difficult fight, but it's more like an easier Heroic mode WoW boss than like a normal mode WoW boss (and my opinion is that Hard Modes should be closer to the latter).

Disagree. They should be on same level as pre-nerf Heroic bosses in WoW. That is their intention, and Nightmare will be even more of a challenge.

Costello - I already gave one glaring example, I just didn't feel the need, or desired to go into more detail about the complexity and extra difficulty of the rest of the encounter. Just wanted to give you a taste of it.

Some people are elitists, some aren't but come across as one, and others just think that 16 man is more difficult. All 3 agree that 16 man is competitive raiding, 8 man is just "blah" and not a real accomplishment because of the tuning.

Personally I love the fact these fights are difficult and separate the men from the boys so to speak, but that only applies to 16 man. I would venture to say 8 man could be probably be pugged up until Kephess.

Disagree. They should be on same level as pre-nerf Heroic bosses in WoW. That is their intention, and Nightmare will be even more of a challenge.

 

Costello - I already gave one glaring example, I just didn't feel the need, or desired to go into more detail about the complexity and extra difficulty of the rest of the encounter. Just wanted to give you a taste of it.

 

Some people are elitists, some aren't but come across as one, and others just think that 16 man is more difficult. All 3 agree that 16 man is competitive raiding, 8 man is just "blah" and not a real accomplishment because of the tuning.

 

Personally I love the fact these fights are difficult and separate the men from the boys so to speak, but that only applies to 16 man. I would venture to say 8 man could be probably be pugged up until Kephess.

WOW now has 3 levels of raiding, I think SWTOR is copying that formula and story mode will eventually be exactly like "looking for raid" if they get around to creating a cross server queue system. Asking for some new crazy level of difficulty going beyond stuff like WOW hard modes (which is their nightmare mode) seems a little extreme.

8 man denova hard modes being pugged up to kephess? Even I won't go that far, i don't see it, no way, not right now in their current form.

This goes a lot farther in proving a point than just saying "lol 8 man easy lololol". I appreciate the time that went into it. I stand corrected on several points. I still think 8 man is tuned very well and refreshingly difficult, if not overboard like this post speaks towards for 16. The whole "one person screws up is a wipe" thing applies to both then, I suppose.

8 man is tuned very well. A lot of time and feedback went in to making it this way. Unfortunately, 16 didn't get the same treatment on the PTS.

And yes, they are both refreshingly difficult

Disagree. They should be on same level as pre-nerf Heroic bosses in WoW. That is their intention, and Nightmare will be even more of a challenge.

That's too large a jump in difficulty. We don't know the devs' intention, because they've never compared their game to WoW in this respect.

WoW now has three modes of raiding: LFR, Normal mode and Heroic modes. I think we can safely assume that they do want Story mode to be puggable, so I think in many ways it is comparable to WoW's LFR model.

None of these fights on 8 or 16 Hard Mode match up against WoW Heroic mode raiding, except perhaps for the overtuned ones. Even then, they're still easier than WoW Heroic modes, and I think that's where they should be.

This game is not really ready to make fights as complex as Heroic Mode WoW fights, particularly end boss WoW fights. The toolboxes of healers especially are far too limited for them to create the level of challenge that you see in Heroic Mode WoW.

So yeah, I stand by my opinion that Story Mode = LFR WoW, Hard Mode = Normal Mode WoW (we certainly found it so on 8-man and with Toth/Zorn on 16 after its tuning), and Nightmare Mode ~= Heroic Mode WoW (only in practice slightly easier because the gear jump from Rakata to Campaign is too small for them to really ramp Nightmare Mode damage up as much as WoW can).

I would venture to say 8 man could be probably be pugged up until Kephess.

Maybe with experienced raiders from multiple guilds throwing in together (on voice and already bearing strats), but not by MMO newbies or the casual crowd that doesn't worry about how to play their class properly. Just sayin'.

Otherwise, I can see that, I suppose... given time.

People who think 8 man is as difficult as 16 man, have not gone through learning in both 16 and 8 man.

I've progressed through both, with different raiders. Our 8 man team learned all the encounters on the PTS because we didn't have 16 raiders. The degreee of difficulty and learning of 16 compared to 8 is so much harder, it is not even close. If you think they're equivalent, then do 16 man for yourself and learn both 8 and 16 with different players. You'll quickly release that you are wrong.

8 man hard is nowhere near the difficulty of 16 man hard mode.

Nada. No way. All the math and other reasons explained: 8 man is in Siberia and 16 man is in Rhode Island.

Although the fight is immensely fun and challenging right now, I fully expect them to nerf the tank fight once Nightmare is out because the gear simply does not scale to the demands of that encounter in its current form.

WOW now has 3 levels of raiding, I think SWTOR is copying that formula and story mode will eventually be exactly like "looking for raid" if they get around to creating a cross server queue system. Asking for some new crazy level of difficulty going beyond stuff like WOW hard modes (which is their nightmare mode) seems a little extreme.

 

8 man denova hard modes being pugged up to kephess? Even I won't go that far, i don't see it, no way, not right now in their current form.

wow has 3 levels now? so your saying tor which released with 3 levels is copying a game that just introduced it after tors release? like forgive me if I am wrong with the release date but there was only 2 levels prior when i played wow in november,

wow has 3 levels now? so your saying tor which released with 3 levels is copying a game that just introduced it after tors release? like forgive me if I am wrong with the release date but there was only 2 levels prior when i played wow in november,

Yes, there are three levels in WoW now - Looking for Raid (puggable, you click a button and it instantly teleports you there, it's cross-realm, basically "castrated" bosses), Normal and Heroic. I'm not even gonna bother explaining how retarded LFR is, even Normal in WoW has gotten to extremely ridiculous levels and with the constant nerfs to raids as time goes on (for example, after every major top guild clears the current content, Blizzard just nerfs the content so the rest of the population can steamroll through ... after a couple of months, they nerf some more). Then there's Heroic which has maybe 3 bosses per tier that are really difficult and challenging for months to come (like Spine of Deathwing HC).

But in no shape or form is Story Mode EC comparable to LFR. If some of you think EC story mode can simply be pugged and done without voice chat like LFR you simply lost touch with reality. In WoW you even have DBM plus in-game dungeon journal which explains exactly what each boss does, not to mention tons of visual and sound cues warning you what to do during the encounters ... there's almost none of that in SWTOR, that fact alone makes EC an impossibility right now for people without guilds. (I'm not complaining about that, ofc, I welcome it).

Yes, there are three levels in WoW now - Looking for Raid (puggable, you click a button and it instantly teleports you there, it's cross-realm, basically "castrated" bosses), Normal and Heroic. I'm not even gonna bother explaining how retarded LFR is, even Normal in WoW has gotten to extremely ridiculous levels and with the constant nerfs to raids as time goes on (for example, after every major top guild clears the current content, Blizzard just nerfs the content so the rest of the population can steamroll through ... after a couple of months, they nerf some more). Then there's Heroic which has maybe 3 bosses per tier that are really difficult and challenging for months to come (like Spine of Deathwing HC).

 

But in no shape or form is Story Mode EC comparable to LFR. If some of you think EC story mode can simply be pugged and done without voice chat like LFR you simply lost touch with reality. In WoW you even have DBM plus in-game dungeon journal which explains exactly what each boss does, not to mention tons of visual and sound cues warning you what to do during the encounters ... there's almost none of that in SWTOR, that fact alone makes EC an impossibility right now for people without guilds. (I'm not complaining about that, ofc, I welcome it).

people are pugging the ops on my server so I am not sure what your server is doing but I beg to differ. Also When was Looking for raid released? I'm pretty sure it was announced a while ago but its certainly not something that the old republic "copied" from wow. which is the main point, that the old republic isnt copying wow.

And why couldn't SWTOR copy WoW's three-difficulty system? The difference between normal, hardmode and nightmare is only in raw numbers (they promise different mechanics for EC NiM) and if you haven't noticed, the devs keep praising WoW and how it raised standards of the industry.

Would still like to see pugs downing Kephess on story mode.

And why couldn't SWTOR copy WoW's three-difficulty system? The difference between normal, hardmode and nightmare is only in raw numbers (they promise different mechanics for EC NiM) and if you haven't noticed, the devs keep praising WoW and how it raised standards of the industry.

 

Would still like to see pugs downing Kephess on story mode.

I was more aiming at

WOW now has 3 levels of raiding, I think SWTOR is copying that formula and story mode will eventually be exactly like "looking for raid" if they get around to creating a cross server queue system. Asking for some new crazy level of difficulty going beyond stuff like WOW hard modes (which is their nightmare mode) seems a little extreme.

 

8 man denova hard modes being pugged up to kephess? Even I won't go that far, i don't see it, no way, not right now in their current form.

Where he said that Tor copied wow with its 3 tier system yet it didnt.

I was more aiming at

 

 

Where he said that Tor copied wow with its 3 tier system yet it didnt.

I said they will eventually. SWTOR still needs to develop a cross server system, but don't be surprised when you see it down the line.

Of course, like some people have mentioned, story mode denova is much harder then LFR WOW right now. I couldn't care less about either though, I am in it for the difficult modes.

P.S. This thread got derailed from this 8 man guilds 4/4 epeen wave, but they aren't even 4/4 on the raid ranks sight.

Use the raid ranks sight! Get your credit.

http://www.swtor.raidranks.com

P.S. This thread got derailed from this 8 man guilds 4/4 epeen wave, but they aren't even 4/4 on the raid ranks sight.

 

Use the raid ranks sight! Get your credit.

 

http://www.swtor.raidranks.com

One more for Raidranks!