I honestly find this thread a bit unreal... You guys are focusing on a "who's got the biggest" point of view, as if two tanks in a same party had to compete for aggro. Seriously is that the most useful thing to do ?

AoE threat needs only to :

1) keep mobs away from your healers - this is quite easy, most of the time simply "tagging" them would do the trick

2) hold them long enough for the aggro ho's to smash them down - a little more complicated sometimes, but you can concentrate on keeping the strong/elite ones, and let your comrades quickly dispatch the lesser crowd

3) react to eventual incoming adds who, like in any given mmo, tend to rush the healers - see point number one

And this third point, my friends, tend to be overlooked in this thread. I'm sure the three tank specs have ways of dealing with these situations. I'm personally comfortable, as a Shadow tank, with a combination of Force Pull, a no-cd whirling blow and TAoEs like force breach and Slow Time, but I'm sure a good Guardian or Vanguard could do the trick.

And as for 60+ seconds AoE aggro situations, I certainly haven't explore all the content of this game, but I still didn't find any, my dear Gankstah (except maybe when I off-tanke the Belsavis World Boss's adds while my buddies beat the crap out of him, and I have all the time in the wolrd to build up aggro)

Force Breach has better threat per force than Whirling Blow. And in a situation where you can hit multiple enemies with Whirling Blow/Cyclone Slash, you can also hit them with Overload/Force Wave...

You may feel free to plot a new rotation which is more force:threat conservative. I'm simply using the powers being stressed in this discussion. I promise you though, over time, the end result will be the same.

It also appears that you included Revenge/Courage in the Jugg's priority, but didn't include the Shadow/Assassin's 100% chance to gain 2 force per shield/defense every 1s talent.

The sum between GCDs 2 and 3 is wrong. It's off by 10. The rotation should end with 10.6. That's my bad. This was written at 2am so I'm sure its off. I will fix it tonight after work.

As far as regen goes, I was under the impression that the 15.6 sum included this? 12*1.3=15.6. Am I incorrect? I'm posting on a cell atm so I don't have the luxury to swap between websites for a search.

So I'm kind of right back where I started in that I don't know what to play.

 

I don't want to play a tank with horrible AOE capabilities. But I don't want to play a tank who struggles to get healed and has no mitigation.

Avastronaut, the choice what to play is yours. Either profession can be good with AOE it just depends on you.

I have yet to run into something I can't handle solo.

The only person that knows what is best for you is you. I don't know your playstyle so I will not assume to tell you what is best for you.

All professions can be good. Play what you like the best just remember a shadow is a double blade and a lot of her abilities are based on that.

Good luck and may you enjoy the game.

As far as regen goes, I was under the impression that the 15.6 sum included this? 12*1.3=15.6. Am I incorrect? I'm posting on a cell atm so I don't have the luxury to swap between websites for a search.

10.4 (base Force/sec) * 1.5 (GCD) = 15.6 Force/GCD

The actual gains from DBSD are closer to 1.33 Force/sec for roughly 2 Force/GCD. The gross Force/GCD is ~17.6.

The biggest point I was trying to bring up with the math I provided (and, yes, I know it's flawed) was that Guardians can generate AoE threat *easier* and with lower resource costs. Even if they were simply *equivalent*, Guardians would still have the advantage in that they spend less time and resources doing so. The amount of time you have to devote to maintaining AoE threat is fundamentally important: would you rather have class with a single AoE used once every 30 seconds or a class that generates threat by constantly spamming a full suite of AoEs to generate the exact same amount of threat? Even if everything else (damage, resource consumption, threat) was identical, whether you're spending more or less time using the given AoEs matters *a lot*, since that "empty" time is time you spend doing other things (like ST damage/threat gen).

I honestly find this thread a bit unreal... You guys are focusing on a "who's got the biggest" point of view, as if two tanks in a same party had to compete for aggro. Seriously is that the most useful thing to do ?

I completely 100% wholeheartedly agree.

Which is why I stated in my first post that people are taking things too personally and the differences are minuscule in the grand scheme. I have 2 SA buddies who are also tanks and I have never personally witnessed them have issues holding aggro. It all boils down to the player and more importantly the team.

The only reason I stepped into the conversation was because posters started postulating the use of consecutive Whirling Blows in a 12 second timeframe. Which is the worst possible management of resources. I was simply trying to illustrate that point. The conversation just kind of evolved from there.

But yes, the premise for argument is moot.

10.4 (base Force/sec) * 1.5 (GCD) = 15.6 Force/GCD

Ah that's right, that's right. That's how I got it. Thank you much. So the 12 GCD rotation should be ending with roughly 34-35 force.

OP, as someone who played WoW so long, you should keep in mind just how much MMOs change. Paladins didn't even have a taunt in vanilla and only Warriors could tank raids until BC made druids and paladins real tanks. After that, paladins had overpowered AoE and warriors and druids had a hard time getting certain runs during BC (ie Hyjal Summit raid and Heroic Shattered Halls 5-man).

The point is, things will change. The spec that is OP in January won't be the same one that is OP in May. Buffs and nerfs will come and go.

Pick a style that you like, and a feel you enjoy. Personally, I love the melee/caster hybrid feel of my Shadow tank. It reminds me of enhancement shaman, with stealth and the ability to tank. It's very dynamic, and, with the exception of throwing pebbles, the animations all look quite good strung together. I don't play a Guardian at all because I don't like the feel of Knights as much. If you prefer that feel, stick with it. You have all the tools you need to do the job (tank or dps), and if BW's metrics show that Guardians are falling behind in any area, they will make changes to compensate.

TLDR: Play what you enjoy, all the tools are there and balance will shift with time.

would you rather have class with a single AoE used once every 30 seconds or a class that generates threat by constantly spamming a full suite of AoEs to generate the exact same amount of threat? Even if everything else (damage, resource consumption, threat) was identical, whether you're spending more or less time using the given AoEs matters *a lot*, since that "empty" time is time you spend doing other things (like ST damage/threat gen).

Your point is totally valid, but works either way : what happens if waves of mobs are constantly popping ? I have two precise situations in mind : Esseles HM's first boss and at the very beginning of Eternity Vault. In these cases a 30 secs cd is useless. Another thing to consider is the high proportion of ranged (and therefore almost immobile) mobs, and relatively low AoE radius. I personally prefer the flexibility of a fast-paced, relatively low threat Whirling Blow (often combined with a well placed Force Pull). Hence my very limted use of taunts which belong to the "panic button" threat management category.

Your point is totally valid, but works either way

The question was exaggerated to demonstrate the value of animation lower time consumption. Since both builds are largely capable of spamming their AoEs roughly equally (as demonstrated by Gankstah's plots; Guardians are actually better) such that, if desired, they could devote their entire animation time (or, at least, a maximum amount of time as determined by their resources), the difference in animation consumption is more to demonstrate the superiority of Force Sweep over Slow Time and Force Breach (more damage, slightly lower threat, but *way* lower animation consumption) since the two provide much the same amount of threat but the former does it much more efficiently.

This thread has been good value.

Overall summary I got was Sin/Shadows can generate just as much AoE threat as Jugg/ , albeit less effeciently Vrs active time spent & that over a greater period of time Sin/Shadow will struggle to continue maintaining due to resource regeneration starvation....at least on paper anyway.

The differences are so close as not to even bother trying to math out as this is when you get too far into the realm of what-if's, full moon , standing on one leg, facing West

Like I originaly said I still stand by my own personal ingame observations as it is all I can do ,as it is all I have personally observed myself.

I have yet to come across a Jugg that can hold a candle to my Sintank AoE threat. I can only assume due to the math shown in this thread is that

a) the Juggs I have come across have been clueless .

b) by some streak of luck I get all my procs , dont suffer from RNG & knockbacks or rotation interupts as much.

c) possibly have more effecient playstyle execution.

Who knows, Iam just happy playing Sin/Shadow overall which is why my remark was only an personal observation & not a claim.

I am just happy playing Sin/Shadow overall...

Which is all that matters.

The question was exaggerated to demonstrate the value of animation lower time consumption. Since both builds are largely capable of spamming their AoEs roughly equally (as demonstrated by Gankstah's plots; Guardians are actually better) such that, if desired, they could devote their entire animation time (or, at least, a maximum amount of time as determined by their resources), the difference in animation consumption is more to demonstrate the superiority of Force Sweep over Slow Time and Force Breach (more damage, slightly lower threat, but *way* lower animation consumption) since the two provide much the same amount of threat but the former does it much more efficiently.

I'm still not sure why animation time is such a huge issue. You need to build up threat, so what does it matter how many powers it takes to do it?

Gankstah's plots shows that a shadow tank could sustain at least 1 Whirling blow every 3 GCDs (3 GCDs = ~45 force, whirling is only 40 force) and still have force left over to do other things. Now you couldn't keep it up forever and a guardian may be able to, but a shadow doesn't have to reposition at all.

Yes, you could simply step back (i/e hit the S key) and thus make much more use of of Cyclone Slash, but you are still limited by 5 targets, and if any of them move out of your cone of attack (i/e, right in front of you) then you have a much harder time actually hitting them.

I know i was comparing force sweep to Whirling blow in a vacuum, and it's not entirely the best way to compare powers, but it is exactly how Kitru shows that Guardians > Shadows, and he did it by comparing the wrong powers together.

Slow Time, Force Breach, and Cyclone Slash all of a target cap of 5. They can't hit anymore then that within their area of effects.

Force Sweep and Whirling blow have no target cap, and while Force Sweep is limited to 12 seconds, Whirling Blow is limited by your force regeneration. It would look much better to compare the proper powers together, instead of comparing Force Sweep to Force Breach and slow time, and comparing Whirling Blow and Cyclone slash.

I guess what really bothers me about threads that I read like this is that posters seem to adopt a sky is falling stance when trying to explain their point.

I also really hate all the negativity. It would be nice if for once a rationale discussion could be had without comments like "facerolling, clueless, etc etc."

For the record I am a Shadow tank. I have had considerable success with my role in my own experiences. I wont presume to claim that my experiences match those of any one else's.

For the OP: Please choose a concept that appeals to you the most. I would interject here one thing however that I believe bears some relevance to your thought process. In your post you stated that you would like to go as a DPS every now and again within your advanced class. That's fine and certainly doable but there is a particularly annoying mechanic right now that does impede that slightly, and that is not having the ability to switch specs without paying for it at your fleet or capitol city. Also doing so on a regular basis can become rather expensive. I'll admit that like you I would like to have the option without the costs becoming prohibitive, but that's how things are right now. I point it out solely because I think it allows you to make a more informed decision on your final choice of class.

As for the whole Guard/Shadow/trooper and Sith equiv topic I really only have one or two things to say.

1. While my personal tanking experiences have been mostly limited to the shadow I have observed on many occasions the other tank types doing just fine against pretty much everything the game has to offer right now. Will certain classes have an easier time under certain conditions and in certain scenario's? Possibly. I'd even go so far as to say more than likely yes. However, as long as one particular class isn't the preferred one over and over again in those scenario's that is ok. All that really matters is this - Can I as class XXX do my job? if the answer is yes then there's really no problem. The amount of personal effort required to accomplish that goal really isn't an issue because for the most part what is just right and what is too much is going to be very different between individual players. I.e some people might think the extra required effort is more fun. Some people wont. That's just the way things are. At the end of the day if you can accomplish your goal that is real priority.

2. As a Shadow the only time I really have a hard time tanking is when I find myself in a situation (either solo or in a group/op) where I have to tank multiple npc's at once. This isn't so much a threat issue per se, as I can single out what needs to be tanked and what can be left as fodder for the dps, but rather dealing with the mechanics required and the incoming damage. I've found that say as a off the wall hypothetical that 10 little guys/strongs are far far more deadly than 1-3 elites/champs. Obviously this is where CC must come into the equation and how much of a threat they are depends overwhelmingly on what particular abilities the NPC's have at their disposal but I am constantly on the lookout for more effective ways that I can personally implement that will make these situations somewhat easier when they do occur. So, if anyone has any advise to give in this regard I'll gladly take it even if it's something I might already know. Hopefully somewhere I nice little gem of knowledge will surface that I can take advantage of.

3. Lastly try to adapt your play to what works and MOST IMPORTANTLY what makes the game fun for you. Changing game mechanics are likely to be slow in coming and very small when they do come if they come at all. It's not a quick process to re evaluate things and re develop game code even if it seems clear cut to you as an individual. In the grand scheme your one of many hundreds of thousands of people each with different opinions that developers need to try to make happy. And despite what you might think chances are really good that a specific issue that you think everyone else is up in arms about really isn't that big of a deal to the vast majority of the playerbase. I'm sorry if that upsets anyone but that is reality. I encourage people to post their concerns in a constructive and polite manner, but a far more effective method of playing is likely to be to adjust your own expectations and playstyle to the game that is rather than the game you might want it to be. I hope that made sense.

I guess that was 3 instead of 1 or 2 sorry. Sometimes I tend to ramble but my intentions are good I promise.

See you folks in game.

Well said Moonlit.

I'll just add this : all three tank ACs are viable, it was said enough, everything goes down to the playstyle you'd love. Here are, imho, each one's major asset :

- If you want unlimited resource, go for Guardian ;

- Tired of running and leaping from mob to mob ? Vanguard rules ;

- "Wait, you're tanking in LIGHT ARMOR ?" : priceless