Hopefully the new open world PvP daily on Ilum means PvP balance will be a priority. Mercs/mandos will definitely want to group up even for the non-Heroic missions, or be prepared for lots of return trips from respawn. I did the new daily today. I suspect it will take me at least one-third of the time to complete on any one of my other alts. It's going to be great fun on my Op - not so much on my healer Merc (nevermind my dps mando). Edited February 12, 2013 by klham

lets continue these hypothetical arguments based on class changes that may or may not be accurate and may or may not be even added to the game.

 

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

 

Funny how you think talking about these datamined info is pointless hypothetical arguments, yet you had no problem arguing over your list of commando changes that you wanted in this thread and that other one you made, which were 100% made up. At least these datamined stuff has a very high chance of appearing on the patch notes.

 

im tired of discussing this crap. the devs dont care, and they certainly wont engage in discussion with us so something constructive could at least come of any of this.

 

They do care. They're trying to fix our two biggest issues--no utility and inability to do damage because we can't keep melee away--by giving us net. Whether it will be enough we won't know for sure until we play it. But if you really think the devs don't care, then quit. Money is the only way to flex your opinion in a business.

 

pointless bickering is pointless

 

This is the *********** forums.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Smashbrother

They do care. They're trying to fix our two biggest issues--no utility and inability to do damage because we can't keep melee away--by giving us net. Whether it will be enough we won't know for sure until we play it. But if you really think the devs don't care, then quit. Money is the only way to flex your opinion in a business.

 

I respect both you guys - but I agree with Cash on this.

 

If they cared, where are they? Bob Hinkle just did an interview/blog and even stated they need to do better communicating. Bioware acknowledges their own pathetic communication...yet they never try to alter it.

 

They don't make changes based on what the people playing would like, instead they look at their metrics. You assume they're working on our class...but for over a year they've been nothing but talk when it comes to their 'big plans'. They admit that the resolve value is wrong on bubbles, but have they bothered to fix it? Nope.

 

Just ONCE I'd like to see something that made me believe they cared Smash...just ONCE! But they never show it...

It's 30 because sins have a skill that increase their stealth level by like 15. So you'd basically have to be in cover for 15s to even counteract a sin's stealth so you can see him while he's stealthed. That's gonna happen really when your node guarding.

 

That doesn't explain why their stealth level increase is almost double the boost infiltration's stealth boost. Also given that in practice stealth level is effectively how close you can get to someone before they see you, assuming that with this change Snipers will be able to see stealthers coming a long way out isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Especially considering that the only really consistent threat to a well positioned sniper is a stealther.

 

You realize shadows and sages got their stun nerfed to 10m too? It's not a matter of "BW hates commandos so they nerfed cryo grenade to 10m" ******** that you keep spewing. It has to do with nerfing all long range stuns.

 

Net is going to be 30m. Whether VGs get it too or not, I don't know.

 

nice of you to sidestep his point about our root being melee ranged. Face it dude. Commando was balanced for a different game and you're just too stubborn to admit it. Which hey, so is BW, as they grudgingly admit that hey maybe we SHOULD have an incombat revive, and maybe we SHOULD get an interrupt.

 

If it forces them to use shroud to remove net, that's fine too. It means they're not using it to avoid something else that's big. Plus, net's CD will be much shorter than shrouds.

 

If resilience cleanses the effect, then your main use of its utility (preventing stealth escapes) is kind of moot. Any smart shadow worth their salt will resilience before stealthing out to cleanse burns and what not so they don't pop out, so you haven't really effected the meta. In huttball too, they'd resilience before phasewalking just like they should when going for the score now to prevent getting yanked at the last second.

 

Also you keep asserting that it will be 30m (I'll give you even odds on that) and that its cooldown will be significantly shorter than resilience, except given its obvious usefulness, and the lack of data on its cooldown that I've been able to find this seems a baseless assumption. In which case, you should err on the side of caution my friend.

 

Honestly, I feel like net is good enough to warrant a commando on your team. The escape denial mechanic is unique and extremely useful. Focus got nerfed, so commando could replace a focus guardian or something. Snipers weren't really buffed that much, so that's another option.

 

Again that really depends on a lot of factors. What's the cooldown? What's the range? Is it cleanseable? Will talents which cleanse movement impairing effects cleanse it (Tank Shadow Force Speed as an example, Combat Force Camo). The Force Speed example is telling because normally a root DOES prevent you from going anywhere with force speed, or from leaping, but if a tank hybrid can just force speed away, its usefulness starts going down, same with force camo (though probably the nature of the debuff would prevent the second one, depends on how it's implemented).

 

Also the Focus changes look like a rebalance to me, given that you get a damage increase after using Force Sweep. Will need actual values before we can more properly judge it.

 

My point is that a Guardian's ability to spec tank on the fly, and a sniper's ability to do damage from a distance are all reasons to bring them. While almost no DPS can justify its spot on a ranked team based solely on DPS, they can't truly justify their spot on a ranked team with just utility either. Especially when it is kind of a 1 trick pony kind of utility. Unless the ability can be practically spammed, it's usefulness starts to go down drastically and we still have to ask "is this absolutely necessary, or can I live without it?"

 

Ranked teams often already forgo a sniper, and electro net will definitely be useful, but useful enough? Too many unknowns, and so, better to err on the side of pessimism.

I respect both you guys - but I agree with Cash on this.

 

If they cared, where are they? Bob Hinkle just did an interview/blog and even stated they need to do better communicating. Bioware acknowledges their own pathetic communication...yet they never try to alter it.

 

They don't make changes based on what the people playing would like, instead they look at their metrics. You assume they're working on our class...but for over a year they've been nothing but talk when it comes to their 'big plans'. They admit that the resolve value is wrong on bubbles, but have they bothered to fix it? Nope.

 

Just ONCE I'd like to see something that made me believe they cared Smash...just ONCE! But they never show it...

 

^^^ this,

 

FO' REALZ!

 

there is absolutely no conversation addressing these concerns, whether it is Mercs in PvP or any of the other classes that are suffering.

 

instead, as it appears based on the datamined info, they (BW/EA) decide what they feel is best for the classes and game, and use little to no consumer feedback. just a poor business model.

 

there ARE good posts and info in here, proving the gross imbalances in PvP, and even PvE. they go ignored. some complaints are beyond belief and invalid, sure. but, most of the real complaints have been backed up with facts and evidence, yet NOTHING is being done to address these concerns.

 

piss poor.

 

and that is fact.

 

as TUX said...

 

i'd just like to have a discussion, a serious discussion, with someone from BW/EA. instead of, "yeah we know...we're gonna do better"... and get electronet...

 

to quote the famous Pandora...

 

"Are you still listening?"

Edited February 12, 2013 by T-Assassin

Taking away other classes' escape abilities = they die. Think of it this way. Using the net on someone makes them just like a commando because they can't escape! And you know how easy we are to kill.

Just gave me the best idea....a cylinder that has a 10% chance to proc, and when it does it turns the target into a Commando! lol

Just gave me the best idea....a cylinder that has a 10% chance to proc, and when it does it turns the target into a Commando! lol

 

Every non-commando/merc wouls cry for a nerf to that proc because it severely gimps gameplay, comparable to bubble stun.

*** are you talking about? There is no class ability that reflects damage.

 

L2read right back at you. I clearly said all entities that currently are in game reflect damage reflect DoT damage.

 

How is a melee going to stay on the merc when he nets you from 30m away?

 

No indication that Electro Net will have a 30m range. And even if it did, using Electro Net the first time a melee got within 30m of you in a wz will mean you've probably wasted this new ability just 10 seconds into the match on an enemy who can simply attack other closer targets. Which means that 5 seconds later when a melee is at point blank range you've got nothing.

 

 

The focus changes are all mostly nerfs so I'm not assuming anything. Singularity going from 4 stack to 3 stacks is a 25% damage nerf right off the bat.

 

Your math skills are as horrible as your reading skills. Smash bonus nerf is from 100% to 66% which means . 1-166/200 = 17% damage reduction, not 25%. Moreover this will be further reduced by the new ability Heightened Power which boosts all damage done by after using Smash/Sweep.

no Class-chances and Balancing Fixes with 1.7 is the biggest Joke BW ever made to us. commandos are the weakest class since 1.2, and they did nothing except more nerfs (stun with 10m Range for a Range-DD *trololol*).

 

must be a running gag in Austin "hey, lets write something about a buff for commandos in forums, and then we make a nerf *hahaha*"

 

freaking fools @ bioware

i think it is also worth pointing out that the Bounty Hunter EWH vendor *STILL* does not sell EWH relics. at least it did not before this morning, and i didnt check today nor did i see anything in the patch notes. so hopefully i am wrong.

Makeb can't come soon enough...

Can't wait until they make ANY kind of buff that actually helps us commando/mercs. C'mon BW, fix this class. We've been wanting a fix since 1.2.

They aren't useless like everyone likes to think. You wont top damage charts, but mercs are a very versatile class, jack of all trades, master of none. You can still be a threat if you play smart.

 

A 50 Merc in War-hero versus any 50 in War Hero solo is guaranteed to lose, our stationary damage isn't a high enough output and our ability to absorb damage isn't as good as a tank. However, pair a merc with a ranged dps, merc plays a tanky-damage, abosrbing hits where possible (sniper/merc can be scary.) Paired with a healer, merc plays peeler-damage, standing close to the healer to use CC on whoever is attacking him/her, and damaging the biggest threat in hopes the attacker leaves the healer alone. Pair merc with a tank, merc takes on stationary nuking, hitting tanks target out of the immediate LoS (in the background.) In large groups, stand mid-field, hit a priority target (I.E healer, or high dps) Most merc damage is kinetic, too (save for unload and sweeping blasters... and power shot, if you use it.) So damage is always hitting, excellent for killing blows in Guardians or sents with their ward up.

 

Also, in desperate times, your vast array of AoE is great in WZ for people capping nodes, planting bombs, etc. Missile blast does splash to 5 targets, interrupting plants and caps. Fusion missile, combined with power surge, is an instant cast AoE. Death from above, and sweeping blasters. Blow a medpac, adrenal, and shield, proceed to survive and keep people off nodes for as long as possible. (Time varies, based on how many.)

 

That's how I play my merc, at least, and I'm arsenal spec.

LOL looks like we had a few pages deleted. GG BW.

They aren't useless like everyone likes to think. You wont top damage charts, but mercs are a very versatile class, jack of all trades, master of none. You can still be a threat if you play smart.

 

A 50 Merc in War-hero versus any 50 in War Hero solo is guaranteed to lose, our stationary damage isn't a high enough output and our ability to absorb damage isn't as good as a tank. However, pair a merc with a ranged dps, merc plays a tanky-damage, abosrbing hits where possible (sniper/merc can be scary.) Paired with a healer, merc plays peeler-damage, standing close to the healer to use CC on whoever is attacking him/her, and damaging the biggest threat in hopes the attacker leaves the healer alone. Pair merc with a tank, merc takes on stationary nuking, hitting tanks target out of the immediate LoS (in the background.) In large groups, stand mid-field, hit a priority target (I.E healer, or high dps) Most merc damage is kinetic, too (save for unload and sweeping blasters... and power shot, if you use it.) So damage is always hitting, excellent for killing blows in Guardians or sents with their ward up.

 

Also, in desperate times, your vast array of AoE is great in WZ for people capping nodes, planting bombs, etc. Missile blast does splash to 5 targets, interrupting plants and caps. Fusion missile, combined with power surge, is an instant cast AoE. Death from above, and sweeping blasters. Blow a medpac, adrenal, and shield, proceed to survive and keep people off nodes for as long as possible. (Time varies, based on how many.)

 

That's how I play my merc, at least, and I'm arsenal spec.

 

i hear ya...REALLY, i do. been a Merc since the dawn of time

 

and, Merc can be successful, sure!!

 

go play Powertech. your Merc will make you cry!!

 

Merc can be successful, sure!! it just takes extraordinary skill to keep up and/or be competative.

 

and, not trying to be insulting, just CLEAR, for the lurkers and nut-jobs.

 

extraordianry : going beyond what is usual, regular, or customary.

 

what my merc can do, my VG can do better...way better. (talking DPS) with less effort, less pillar humping, less interruption.

 

and, i think that is what most of us are trying to get acknowledged.

 

LOL looks like we had a few pages deleted. GG BW.

 

i got no problem with it, tbh.

 

most of it was half decent(at best) info wrapped in a self righteous tirade.

 

i'd prefer it stay on topic and be an actual PRODUCTIVE debate. that dude, and the responses he solicits, have no place here but to derail from the issues we are debating and fighting to get acknowledged.

 

there is fact and evidence here proving the gross imbalance in PvP, PvE, and RWZ PvP.

 

do not let the trolls derail this. while there is nothing wrong with debate, the way to go about it should remain respectful.

i got no problem with it, tbh.

 

while there is nothing wrong with debate, the way to go about it should remain respectful.

 

I completely agree

LOL looks like we had a few pages deleted. GG BW.

 

not surprised, it stopped being a constructive discussion and just turned into mud-slinging.

not surprised, it stopped being a constructive discussion and just turned into mud-slinging.

 

That's what the majority of nerf/buff threads turn into after a few hundred posts.

That's what the majority of nerf/buff threads turn into after a few hundred posts.

 

Since we just started throwing mud after 1245 posts, does that mean there really is a problem with this class?

Since we just started throwing mud after 1245 posts, does that mean there really is a problem with this class?

 

I think its safe to say that mercs can perform fairly well in the hands of someone who can play them correctly. I think its also safe to say that they get destroyed when a decently played melee gets on them no matter how good the merc is. I think its also safe to say that their dps is not wanted for rateds and I have only seen one healing merc on a rated team (best imp team on my server).

 

Most importantly I think its safe to say that they will be getting some much needed attention when the expansion comes out.

Most importantly I think its safe to say that they will be getting some much needed attention when the expansion comes out.

 

Unless you know something else other than the datamined stuff, I bet you're mistaken.

 

Still, hoping is the only thing we can do for this class now.

we also need to remember that Makeb is most likely 3-4 months away. that is a lot of time for internal testing to change stuff. im hoping that we also see a lot more conversing between players and devs. the last couple days seems to be showing things improving in that respect, and i just hope it carries over when it is finally time to test everything on the PTS

Pyrotech Merc is fine. Arsenal isn't great, but as Pyro, you really only have to cast 2 abilties. One is channeled, and if it gets interupted, you still get the proc of railshot. Then you have Powershot. A 1.5 second cast when specced, and you only need to use it once in awhile. If it gets interupted, keep going. Rapid Shots is your friend.

Pyrotech Merc is fine. Arsenal isn't great, but as Pyro, you really only have to cast 2 abilties. One is channeled, and if it gets interupted, you still get the proc of railshot. Then you have Powershot. A 1.5 second cast when specced, and you only need to use it once in awhile. If it gets interupted, keep going. Rapid Shots is your friend.

 

lol, Pyro merc is fine if you are ignored, when things gets close & personal, you wish you had Flame Burst instead of you interruptables Unload/Powercrap, errr I mean Powershot...

 

In a scenario where both players have equal skills & gear rating:

 

A Pyro Merc has a Powertech in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has a Maraudeur in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has an Assassin in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has an Operative in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has a hybrid Sorcerer in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has a Juggernaut in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

A Pyro Merc has a Sniper in front of him, both have all skills on cooldown, who do you think would win?

 

Answer: not the dps merc...

 

And against a healer? you can't outdps their heals and utilities.

 

Now think having more than one of those classes in front of you, what you gonna do, walk away using Rapids Shots? If you were playing one of the other classes you could still have a possibility to escape/endure, but nope, as a DPS merc, your only solution is to die, Pyro merc is fine? Nice joke.

 

Sure, a dps merc can do well in a pug Warzone, in a Ranked one? Against teamspeaker/mumble premades FOTMs teams? Who are you trying to convince dude, what can you possibily bring on the table? The answer is simple, NOTHING.

 

EDIT: damn, when I said on cooldown, I mean having all their skills available.

Edited February 15, 2013 by yoomazir