If not RNG.....then what are the options?

How about a pick list? Let people choose what slot/class they want....if RNG is an absolute must in some way shape or form, then let the least meaningful aspect of the item be subject to RNG e.g. color, appearance.

There's all kinds of ways you could implement it e.g. any drop is in the form of a placeholder object that has the basics, like level, stat variables etc , then when you open it you choose what you want it to be. Or, when you go through the group finder, you can be given a set of buttons to toggle for the gear slots that interest you, just like when you choose what flashpoints you want to queue for. Or, before opening, you get some sort of sliders that let you have some control over the variables .....like when you're using the appearance modification station e.g. 14 sliders - one for each slot....the number of spots on the slider are based on whats in the loot table so if there were 20 armorings, you set the slider where you want it on the spectrum etc.

Some good ideas in this thread. I wish BW would take notice.

There have been a couple of really good threads trying to insure that BW knows that RNG at the current planned scale is totally unacceptable. Bringing several form that same group to state at point blank what should be considered is what this is all about.

I doubt very seriously that BW would ever take my advise … (it really is just that way).

BUT ! What has been posted this time ( in ALL of the threads ) … Well... IMO … there's just no excuse for not taking some steps to make some changes.

There's a good way to handle this. There is little question in my mind whatsoever. Even if it took hand picking a few people that BW felt that they could trust for a few days in private discussion or testing … IMO .. I want that 3rd option!

Many players in this game really want 6.0 to succeed !

I would personally prefer at the end of the day to be able to still shake hands with many that I see here daily.. INCLUDING the dev team. I really mean that !

IF not RNG … what are the options? I submit to those who might be reading this … There have been some good ideas presented here AGAIN ! Some of those truly have been around for a while now !

Best Regards

There have been a couple of really good threads trying to insure that BW knows that RNG at the current planned scale is totally unacceptable. Bringing several form that same group to state at point blank what should be considered is what this is all about.

 

Best Regards

I genuinely applaud both you intention and your perseverance.

But time and time again Bioware have shown they ONLY listen when players quit en masse, and usually by then Bioware listening to us too little, too late - because the future viability of the game has already been damaged.

Lhancelot now has a quote by me in his signature, that is the crux of the issue for me. I came to SWTOR from LOTRO with nearly a hundred fellow LOTRO players with the intention of making SWTOR our 2nd home. Almost immediately it became a 1st Home for many of us. I am the only one of that group who has a toon at current level cap, I am the only one of that group who has played through KotFE/ET completely because there was just too much grinding.

I am currently in a guild that I joined about 2 years ago that had 40-50 regular active players, it now has 3. Everyone I know, and I do mean EVERYONE, who has left this game has done so because of deliberately imposed excessive grinds. One guy took one look at the layout of the dailies on Iokath and said "they are taking the p^%$" and has - to my knowledge - never logged back in.

In 95% of cases once one of my SWTOR friends has left this game due to excessive grinds they never come back.

Ben Irving's "we think RNG is exciting" debacle lost this game thousands of players, fixing it over a year long period of tinkering does NOT bring those people back.

Letting 6.0 go live with too much RNG (and I genuinely believe at this point that any RNG is too much) and then tinkering with it for a year to make it half acceptable will not be good enough. The damage will be done, players will be lost and we'll be looking at yet another round of server merges.

Bioware need to listen to us before they make the mistakes, not after. And they need to start being quite honest and open when and where they have got it wrong.

If they expect us to trust them with out Subs they need to trust with some honesty.

All The Best

RNG by itself isnt bad and should be part of it, RNG upon RNG upon RNG without any guarantee is terrible.

This is pretty much it.

I genuinely applaud both you intention and your perseverance.

 

But time and time again Bioware have shown they ONLY listen when players quit en masse, and usually by then Bioware listening to us too little, too late - because the future viability of the game has already been damaged.

 

Lhancelot now has a quote by me in his signature, that is the crux of the issue for me. I came to SWTOR from LOTRO with nearly a hundred fellow LOTRO players with the intention of making SWTOR our 2nd home. Almost immediately it became a 1st Home for many of us. I am the only one of that group who has a toon at current level cap, I am the only one of that group who has played through KotFE/ET completely because there was just too much grinding.

 

I am currently in a guild that I joined about 2 years ago that had 40-50 regular active players, it now has 3. Everyone I know, and I do mean EVERYONE, who has left this game has done so because of deliberately imposed excessive grinds. One guy took one look at the layout of the dailies on Iokath and said "they are taking the p^%$" and has - to my knowledge - never logged back in.

 

In 95% of cases once one of my SWTOR friends has left this game due to excessive grinds they never come back.

Ben Irving's "we think RNG is exciting" debacle lost this game thousands of players, fixing it over a year long period of tinkering does NOT bring those people back.

 

Letting 6.0 go live with too much RNG (and I genuinely believe at this point that any RNG is too much) and then tinkering with it for a year to make it half acceptable will not be good enough. The damage will be done, players will be lost and we'll be looking at yet another round of server merges.

 

Bioware need to listen to us before they make the mistakes, not after. And they need to start being quite honest and open when and where they have got it wrong.

 

If they expect us to trust them with out Subs they need to trust with some honesty.

 

 

 

All The Best

Agreed !!

And if I may add for whatever it's worth.. we all need to stay focused on this. There are several players like yourself who have been watching this and been more vocal.

At first my thought was: "let's see what happens first" !

Then it became more obvious what was taking place through PTS and other sources where this was going. Most of you have a much better command of the technobabble than I do !

There is a simple GOOD solution that should work for everyone … and will still work well with the new gear that will be made available !!

Hang in there !!

FYI, Pre-4.0 gearing was not that great. While it was fairly easy to obtain 174 pvp gear in 3.x, you had to do the hardest content to get ultimate comms to buy 198 gear, and even then, only the NiM operations dropped the 198 set bonus tokens. So basically, your average joe wore 192 at best.

4.0 gearing is what spoiled us. We had EV/KP HM weekly mission farms to get fully maxed 224 gear, and a grind easier than 3.x for pvp gear.

The only reason I can think of for GR and RNG gearing is so that the devs can "automate" as much as possible so that they don't have to put in as much time changing things. Hopefully this means they will have more time for content creation.

I never had an issue with RNG, I personally think it is far better than what we were getting pre 5.0.

Tokens I think realistically would be the only alternative not that getting tokens does not have it problems. However if a player could gear up there character within a week or two then the forums would not be filled with 'I hate RNG thread's but with 'I have nothing to do threads'. The only other way is to make getting tokens so slow that it would take almost as long or even longer dependant on how much free time you have to play. What type of play-style you have. So to me neither one is better than the other.

6.0 well? I think I preferred command crates from 5.0 but whatever comes along I'm OK with. Not keen on the crafting but just means crafting is no longer an option for me come 6.0, but on the other side of that is that more FP's can be soloed by me.

We caught it in advance for 5.0 as well. I wasn't in the beta for that, but beta testers have come forward and said Bioware was warned how bad GC was at that point and they were ignored. As soon as miners leaked the system anyone with any math sense was on the forums telling Bioware what a bad idea GC was going to be, and we were ignored. We did get them to narrow rewards down to advance class so the crates were't dropping inappropriate gear, which is why it was a surprise to see that back in the new system.

It was caught in advance for 5.0 this is true. The thing people have to realize is that with the amount of time it takes them to come up with new systems, the bulk of observations/feedback given is where they will start after implementation. People were not ignored. Their opinions formed the basis of what came next. Sure, they can make tweaks in the short time between PTS and release but they won't scrub the system as it takes too long to build a new one.

What baffles me is that this is pretty much what they had for the initial 5.0 (meaning excessive rng) release and they have failed to learn from it. How many times can you make the same mistake without that lightbulb lighting up? They originally had it in PvP loot bags which bombed way back when, brought it back much later with 5.0 and scurried to fix it, and now 6.0. IMO they could have kept the gearing style we have now giving multiple new set bonuses, added amp slots to new shells, and created the new tactical pieces. We really don't need a totally new gearing system for each xpac. Want to add variety? Tack it on and change the currency, do not revamp everything.

It was caught in advance for 5.0 this is true. The thing people have to realize is that with the amount of time it takes them to come up with new systems, the bulk of observations/feedback given is where they will start after implementation. People were not ignored. Their opinions formed the basis of what came next. Sure, they can make tweaks in the short time between PTS and release but they won't scrub the system as it takes too long to build a new one.

 

What baffles me is that this is pretty much what they had for the initial 5.0 (meaning excessive rng) release and they have failed to learn from it. How many times can you make the same mistake without that lightbulb lighting up? They originally had it in PvP loot bags which bombed way back when, brought it back much later with 5.0 and scurried to fix it, and now 6.0. IMO they could have kept the gearing style we have now giving multiple new set bonuses, added amp slots to new shells, and created the new tactical pieces. We really don't need a totally new gearing system for each xpac. Want to add variety? Tack it on and change the currency, do not revamp everything.

I agree, there isn't enough time to add a non-RNG method before the Oct 22nd launch.

The only thing they can realistically do is make a post saying that they hear us and they will work on having a non RNG system in place in a few months.

However, I don't see them doing that either.

My two cents:

Using the current PTS framework, what would be ideal loot for me:

Just my two cents.

I'd be cool with having 1 gear tier that drops along the way by completing the storyline and nothing above that.

I have never seen hamster wheel gearing as being good for MMO's attracting players and ultimately making money. Maybe you think MMO's are a booming business right now but I don't think that's the industry consensus.

Have gear drops be for fun, not for stats. Amplifiers could be a cool way to do that and I'd have much more fun with things that let you customize for fun instead of optimizing DPS/etc.

My two cents:

Using the current PTS framework, what would be ideal loot for me:

 

 

All gear drops as modded gear even if it is reduced to one or two pieces of loot versus the some four pieces of non- modded gear. Tech fragments are rewarded from all sources of game play - weeklies, dailies, fps, pvp, ops, etc (which I believe is slowly being implemented anyway).

 

I would change the evil RNG vendor this way:

Instead of selling RNG gear, the vendor would sell optimized armor mods (two types, one for tank the other for dps/heals), mods (tanking, dps/healing), enhancements according to type (accuracy, alacrity, crit, shielding, defense), and then one of each available relic. Once bought the item would be +2 higher than your current Item Rating (i.e. if your Item Rating is 278, a bought enhancement would be 280). They could even limit the top tier of this vendor to like 300 or 305 if they wanted to encourage people to run harder or new content. They could also add a credit cost in if they want to make it like a mini-Kai vendor and a good credit sink.

 

But now I could swap mods at my discretion, whether they are from random drops or bought from a vendor, and if I need a specific mod or relic - say because I need yet another acc enahcement to keep up 110% acc or I'm tired of getting reactive warding relics and just want to buy the relic I actually use - I have a non RNG way of getting that specific mod/relic. I know I have not yet mentioned implants and ear pieces - these could be added as well but if I have this much control over what mods I am using, I can work around whatever implants/ear piece I get as loot (as these should match my discipline), so for me it is not so much a concern.

 

I think this puts the loot in the middle ground: RNG for loot drops, tacticals and set bonus, which should keep BW happy. But control and flexibility of what I am doing with the gear and when I need a specific piece, I can just buy it from the evil RNG vendor and/or Kai. I could be satisfied with something like this - some RNG but also some control. I do not believe it has to be either all RNG or all nor RNG to be a satisfying system. Since the framework for loot already has RNG implemented (and no tokens of any kind), I think a mix that minimizes the RNG aspect is the best we can hope for.

 

Just my two cents.

Interesting... very interesting !!

I don't have the patience to read the entire thread (lol sorry) but I have spent quite a lot of time on PTS, and have experienced a lot of frustration and concern about upcoming expansion.

But don't forget: ALL GEAR is legacy bound. Some are class specific, many are not.

After the patch on Friday I was able to gear 1 DPS toon (my lethality operative) in less than 2 days to full 306 set bonus gear (not min/max) with a combination of Hammer vet mode spam (solo), visits to the RNG vendor, and visits to Kai Zykken.

I have, with that set, geared *ALL* of my DPS alts with decent stats and set bonus (Berserker 4 set & alacrity 2 set). And since I can move the 306 gear to my tank and my BH, I can just spam Hammer or whatever content / vendor and bypass most of the lowbie rolls to get class-specific sets on toons that benefit, like tanks and bounty hunters.

Obviously once this goes live spamming vendors will not be possible in the same way, but I get the feeling that once all the adjustments are made, and the new non-rng vendors which devs have announced are available, it's going to be pretty straightforward and fast to gear up. I'd be quite satisfied if I could min/max a single toon (and therefore most of my toons!) in 4-6 weeks. I'd be mildly irritated if I could fully min/max a single toon in a week or two, but that's me.

I'm not defending the out-of-control-RNG-fest that is current PTS gearing - some things are still completely unmanageable. I'm just providing an example of how easy and fast it was to gear up. To me the biggest remaining issues are unmoddable gear drops, the absurd number of mods variations, and vendor rng, all of which I'm feeling like will be addressed by BW, even if not entirely to my own personal satisfaction.

I don't have the patience to read the entire thread (lol sorry) but I have spent quite a lot of time on PTS, and have experienced a lot of frustration and concern about upcoming expansion.

 

But don't forget: ALL GEAR is legacy bound. Some are class specific, many are not.

 

After the patch on Friday I was able to gear 1 DPS toon (my lethality operative) in less than 2 days to full 306 set bonus gear (not min/max) with a combination of Hammer vet mode spam (solo), visits to the RNG vendor, and visits to Kai Zykken.

 

I have, with that set, geared *ALL* of my DPS alts with decent stats and set bonus (Berserker 4 set & alacrity 2 set). And since I can move the 306 gear to my tank and my BH, I can just spam Hammer or whatever content / vendor and bypass most of the lowbie rolls to get class-specific sets on toons that benefit, like tanks and bounty hunters.

 

Obviously once this goes live spamming vendors will not be possible in the same way, but I get the feeling that once all the adjustments are made, and the new non-rng vendors which devs have announced are available, it's going to be pretty straightforward and fast to gear up. I'd be quite satisfied if I could min/max a single toon (and therefore most of my toons!) in 4-6 weeks. I'd be mildly irritated if I could fully min/max a single toon in a week or two, but that's me.

 

I'm not defending the out-of-control-RNG-fest that is current PTS gearing - some things are still completely unmanageable. I'm just providing an example of how easy and fast it was to gear up. To me the biggest remaining issues are unmoddable gear drops, the absurd number of mods variations, and vendor rng, all of which I'm feeling like will be addressed by BW, even if not entirely to my own personal satisfaction.

I can't say for certain, because I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure all of those green drops that are bound to legacy can't be sold on the GTN.

That means people can't buy pieces they need from other players and are dependent on drops.

Good or bad....just a side effect that is bad in my opinion.

If they spent as much time making new and interesting content as they do devising new gear level increases and level cap increments..... they wouldn't have to add throttled gear grind to keep players engaged.

As another poster mentioned, all my guild-mates left when the story jumped the shark and their gear became obsolete for the N-th time.

But this argument resurfaces every few weeks, and BioWare never listen. - Just bumble along with their heads in the clouds, wondering why it was so much better ( and more profitable) in the old days.

If they spent as much time making new and interesting content as they do devising new gear level increases and level cap increments..... they wouldn't have to add throttled gear grind to keep players engaged.

 

As another poster mentioned, all my guild-mates left when the story jumped the shark and their gear became obsolete for the N-th time.

 

But this argument resurfaces every few weeks, and BioWare never listen. - Just bumble along with their heads in the clouds, wondering why it was so much better ( and more profitable) in the old days.

Seriously! It's amazing how much time and effort must be going into the design of this overly complicated gearing system and all its revisions, just to frustrate and push people away.

They could have banged out a simple system with minimal RNG (since people obviously hate most RNG) and let the chips fall where they may, but it's like they're insistent upon finding a way to make gearing itself be the content.

The Galactic Command system, with all its flaws, made possible for me to gear up four or five toons to BiS for the first time. It took very, very long, and then they made Ossus, and then they announced 6.0.

The gearing system had a good run in the post-5.6 meta. I don't think I'll get on the gear treadmill so soon again. In fact, I'd rather they completely remove gear from the equation, but let's face it, it ain't happening.

They could have banged out a simple system with minimal RNG (since people obviously hate most RNG) and let the chips fall where they may, but it's like they're insistent upon finding a way to make gearing itself be the content.

Because it's all they have left. The story is a dead end, they can't (or won't) make new content (yes pedants, I know they're making an expansion now - the first one in 3(!) flipping years) so all they have left is to make you run the same old content - again! - just for different shinies. What will you do when you have the new shinies? Fresh new content to use it in? Uh... Well, let's just make it so it takes you a long, long, tedious and complicated time to do that. Streeeeeetch that subscription out.

Because it's all they have left. The story is a dead end, they can't (or won't) make new content (yes pedants, I know they're making an expansion now - the first one in 3(!) flipping years) so all they have left is to make you run the same old content - again! - just for different shinies. What will you do when you have the new shinies? Fresh new content to use it in? Uh... Well, let's just make it so it takes you a long, long, tedious and complicated time to do that. Streeeeeetch that subscription out.

Well, since it is an expansion, I hope there's enough content to justify a new grind. Otherwise, why would I want to re-grind for content I have already been doing? I hope the devs understand that balance.

Well, since it is an expansion, I hope there's enough content to justify a new grind. Otherwise, why would I want to re-grind for content I have already been doing? I hope the devs understand that balance.

Ossus has proven that they are unwilling or incapable for whatever reasons to balance grind with content.

If I understand it, you guys grind Ossus constantly to gear all your toons, right? So one small part of the game is being used to grind for gears over, and over, and over. That's not fun.

Lack of resources? Lack of understanding what players enjoy on SWTOR? Inability to afford more content due to shortage of funds? Inability to hire people capable of making better decisions due to lack of funds?

BW is 100% responsible though, they have been given free reign to use their resources as they see fit and for the last few years instead of building meaningful content they have created new gear grind systems multiple different times.

How does it make sense to constantly build then tear down gearing systems over and over, especially if they really are working with a shortage of resources? This is where mismanagement comes in. Sorry, but it's true.

This game worked just fine without this RNG madness.

It's whatever I say. I may not like this obsession that Bioware seems to have with RNG, but oh well, at least the game is still alive and soon to get an expansion.

Ossus has proven that they are unwilling or incapable for whatever reasons to balance grind with content.

 

If I understand it, you guys grind Ossus constantly to gear all your toons, right? So one small part of the game is being used to grind for gears over, and over, and over. That's not fun.

 

Lack of resources? Lack of understanding what players enjoy on SWTOR? Inability to afford more content due to shortage of funds? Inability to hire people capable of making better decisions due to lack of funds?

 

BW is 100% responsible though, they have been given free reign to use their resources as they see fit and for the last few years instead of building meaningful content they have created new gear grind systems multiple different times.

 

How does it make sense to constantly build then tear down gearing systems over and over, especially if they really are working with a shortage of resources? This is where mismanagement comes in. Sorry, but it's true.

^ This:

Star Wars is, effectively, a license to print money, and EA / Bioware have even managed to fail at that.

If SWTOR stands as a testament to anything it is: just how much potential can be squandered by serial mismanagement.

All The Best

Ossus has proven that they are unwilling or incapable for whatever reasons to balance grind with content.

 

If I understand it, you guys grind Ossus constantly to gear all your toons, right? So one small part of the game is being used to grind for gears over, and over, and over. That's not fun.

 

Lack of resources? Lack of understanding what players enjoy on SWTOR? Inability to afford more content due to shortage of funds? Inability to hire people capable of making better decisions due to lack of funds?

 

BW is 100% responsible though, they have been given free reign to use their resources as they see fit and for the last few years instead of building meaningful content they have created new gear grind systems multiple different times.

 

How does it make sense to constantly build then tear down gearing systems over and over, especially if they really are working with a shortage of resources? This is where mismanagement comes in. Sorry, but it's true.

For me, I usually do Hive Queen runs , both sm and hm, for RNG gear tokens while stacking up MWD crystals. Then once I have much of my gear from RNG tokens, I buy the missing pieces with MWD crystals. I get 3-4 MWD crystals from 1500 UC's, WB's, and the weekly special mission.

If I didn't get EZ UC's from NiM, the grind would be real, so the grind is fine for me with NiM. As for RNG gearing, I strongly dislike the RNG loot crates tremendously, which is why i usually only half-gear with them. It's also why i do not do the weekly gear token mission.

I think the reasons the devs made gear acquisition solely from Ossus was to 1) experiment, and 2) fluff their metrics: "Look how starved for new content they are! They're doing Ossus over and over and over. Give us money to make an expansion, EA!"

Haha, I could be completely wrong though.

^ This:

 

Star Wars is, effectively, a license to print money, and EA / Bioware have even managed to fail at that.

 

If SWTOR stands as a testament to anything it is: just how much potential can be squandered by serial mismanagement.

 

All The Best

Spuds.... Love ya... but I need to correct one thing here..................

EA has managed to destroy 90% of the development companies they have acquired. The Start Wars title just allowed this one to hang on a little longer.